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 Post subject: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:34 am 
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Which version of Hot Rats is better?<br><br>How do the Zappa Records and Ryco versions compare?

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:24 am 
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I can go either way on this one.Hot Rats may be THE BEST record ever made.<br><br>I don't have the greatest ear for music, so I don't notice a whole lot of differences (besides the most obvious stuff of course). And it's been a long time ago that I last listened to the vinyl. Once I got the CD I put the record away and haven't got it out since.<br><br>I do kinda prefer the extended Gumbo Variations on the Ryco CD.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:51 pm 
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I have it on Zappa Records but I will probably get it on Ryco as part of one of the Threesome sets (no. 2). Thanks for the information people.<br><br>-Poncho

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:00 pm 
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I listened to the original album the other day and it is so much better than that CD abomination.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:50 pm 
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[quote author=QOQUAQ link=board=albums;num=1051374888;start=0#5 date=04/27/03 at 00:00:37]I listened to the original album the other day and it is so much better than that CD abomination.[/quote]<br><br>The CD version I have is crystal-clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:15 am 
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<br>Who gives a fuck about the sound quality!<br><br>How can you listen to "It Must Be A Camel" with the melody lines missing!<br><br>You people are nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:50 am 
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[quote author=QOQUAQ link=board=albums;num=1051374888;start=0#8 date=04/27/03 at 10:15:49]<br>Who gives a fuck about the sound quality!<br><br>[/quote]<br><br>Anyone with an ear for music.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:17 am 
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I have the RYKO version and was planning on getting the new one, thinking it would naturaly be better, but this is very confuseing to say the least!<br><br>Can some one who has both copies go song for song on what the exact differences really are?!<br><br>I am sure  the mixes are different, but I am more concerned about edits (ither added or taketh awayeth!) and missing or added vocals!<br><br>I get so frustrated with this shit! I have bought and re bought just about everything in my CD collection at least twice, if not thrice!<br><br>Is it worth it to get the newer version just because it is different?


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:40 am 
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Mad Jon, there is excellent info on the web about stuff like this (differences between version, etc)<br><br>the standart site for all this stuff:<br><br>http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/vinylvscds<br><br>scroll & explore. bookmark.<br><br>Anyhows, judging from this site, it seems like that the 1995-Ryko-cd is just the same mix as the 1987-zappa-cd, so I really get your question, since all the cds should sound the same says the site.<br><br>Here's the part on were the cd-mix differs from the LP tough:<br><br>
Quote:
<br>When Hot Rats came out on CD, it was not at all identical to the vinyl original. And it generated a lot of opinion spin:<br><br>ERIC PEPKE: The CD has much less dynamic range than the vinyl. This may not be noticeable unless you have really good speakers.<br><br>PAT BUZBY: The CD completely blows away the vinyl for me: it's like the difference between black-and-white and color TV.<br><br>STEN WINFIELD JOHNSON: Great sound, but noticeably remixed, bringing in unheard elements from the original sessions. At times, the additions are welcome (a longer intro on "Gumbo Variations"), but sometimes intrusive (piano vamping during "Little Umbrellas").<br><br>DAN WATKINS: On the vinyl version of "Little Umbrellas", the final note echoes for a few seconds. On the CD it doesn't.<br><br>MICHAEL PIERRY: I never had a problem with the '87 release, and when I went back and listened to the vinyl, I was shocked at the way "Little Umbrellas" was mixed (that little flute break is completely missing, and I was astounded that it was mixed out of the original like that). I must have horrible ears, because I can't find to complain about with my Hot Rats CD. But I like the different vinyl mix too. They're both cool.<br><br>BOSSK (R): Regardless of what new splendour has been tacked on the CD, I think the cymbals in the new mix sound like a low-bandwitdh MP3. <br><br>From Neil in the UK & JYOB: <br><br>"Willie the Pimp"'s intro is mixed differently. <br>"Son of Mr Green Genes" suffers the most - the drums are lost in a wash of cymbals. The "duelling saxes" are pushed way into the background. <br>"The Gumbo Variations" is about 5 minutes longer - good mix. <br>"It Must Be a Camel" - some additional tracks (recorded during the original sessions) have been mixed back in. The sound quality is better than the vinyl for the obvious reasons, but this IS an example of CDs bringing out he limitations of analog tape, particularly when the tape is nearly 25 years old! <br>From Bermuda Triangle:<br><br>"Peaches en Regalia": I don't notice a huge difference between the two. <br>"Willie the Pimp": since I love this track so much (and have the LP version permanently etched in my brain), I was shocked and pissed that the guitar solo is re-edited and reconstructed in parts. My favorite riff of the entire solo isn't even on the CD! Score one for the LP. <br>"Son of Mr Green Jeans": not much difference to my ears. <br>"Tiny Umbrellas" has added harpsichord and flute. I like the starkness of just the bass and drums better on the LP. <br>"Gumbo Variations": score one for the CD. <br>"It Must be a Camel": minor differences. Towards the end, a once clean guitar now has distortion. The part of the mini drum solo now has this ambience and reverb that wasn't on the LP. Not sure which I like better. [LEWIS SAUL: "There are major differences. The polyphony in many sections is radically different. The CD buries voices that are prominent in the LP, which yields a very, very different composition ...] <br>From Gary Horowitz:<br><br>I would agree that the clarity is unprecidented. The portions where different instrumental parts get brought into the mix plus the new extended sections are refreshing as well as entertaining. However, one thing I miss from the original vinyl mix of "Peaches en Regalia" was the ending figure where the theme is punctuated by speeded up drums or some other punchy percussive effect. It is either non-existant on the new mix, or so low that you can no longer hear it. This was one of my favorite parts of the song, because it's entrance was so festive and happy sounding. In my opinion its absence was not an improvement.<br><br>Artwork<br>The first CD was also missing some artwork from the vinyl; this was restored on the 1995 re-issue.
<br><br>btw, need any info on zappa:<br>I always start here: http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/<br>it has very good links, very easy and complete to navigate, also to the above vinyl vs cd-site.<br>

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:37 am 
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Everybody seems to notice all the subtle differences between the LP and the CD.<br><br>But how come nobody but me cares that the CD mix of "It Must Be A Camel" has melody lines missing!<br><br>How do you remix a record and leave out the melody!<br><br>We're talking about the goddamn fucking melody of the song!<br><br>

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:57 am 
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Wow, BB, thats alot of great information!<br><br>Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:46 pm 
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[quote author=QOQUAQ link=board=albums;num=1051374888;start=0#13 date=04/30/03 at 10:37:36]Everybody seems to notice all the subtle differences between the LP and the CD.<br><br>But how come nobody but me cares that the CD mix of "It Must Be A Camel" has melody lines missing!<br>[/quote]<br>in my case, that's easy. I, for one, don't have a vinyl-copy of the album.<br>--------<br><br>Mad Jon !!  no problems of course. don't thank me, thank the guys that made those 2 excellent websites! bookmark 'em both, danno!<br><br>

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:29 pm 
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The Vinyl Voyager: Frank Zappa’s ‘Hot Rats’
By Nick Latona

Welcome to The Vinyl Voyager. My weekly diary of what music on vinyl, in its purest form, means to me. Track-by-track, note-by-note: Here’s what influences me and keeps me moving forward in a world that won’t stop pushing back.

When you’ve been described by the best in the business as a rock icon, an innovator and a true musical genius, your career is probably headed in the right direction. Frank Zappa, a politically-charged maverick who always sought to push his art to the limit, is a difficult egg to crack. His often comedic albums never shied away from incorporating low-brow satire with complex compositions.

Zappa’s band, the Mothers of Invention, released what many now consider to be one of the first rock concept albums — 1966’s “Freak Out!” For the next 30 years, Zappa would continue to inseminate listeners around the world with his eclectic musical prowess and empower generations of musicians through his constant combating of groups who would seek to censor the art form for the masses.

Despite all his accomplishments though, nothing in his discography sticks out more to me than 1969’s jazz fusion and nearly instrumental “Hot Rats.” Alongside contemporaries like Miles Davis with his album “Bitches’ Brew” and Santana’s “Caravanserai,” Zappa made jazz fusion accessible with brighter sounds and hooks.

So, let’s try to ignore the utterly terrifying album cover and dive into “Hot Rats” head first — on freshly cleaned, virgin black vinyl of course.

1. “Peaches en Regalia”

Zappa helped pioneer the manipulation of recording tape speed to achieve interesting tones and colors in his music. The opening of “Peaches,” now a jazz fusion standard, boasts with what sounds like speedily picked guitar altered by Zappa’s signature tape altering and is supported by a whirlwind of piano chords and woodwinds. I always found this track to be the most difficult to appreciate on the album, granted jazz fusion isn’t the most instantly likable genre of music. Regardless, the dozen or so color changes will dazzle anyone willing to give a second listen and appreciate what Zappa managed to record in 1969.

2. “Willie the Pimp”

Featuring the gravel and grit of Captain Beefheart’s vocals, “Willie the Pimp” is the only non-instrumental song on “Hot Rats”; it’s also arguably the best. Pairing the Beefheart growl with a riffing combination of electric violin and guitar culminates into a core melody heavy enough to match the “little pimp with (his) hair gassed back” walking the streets. Zappa puts his guitar virtuosity on display here, unleashing a relentless solo I’ve always considered a favorite.

3. “Son of Mr. Green Genes”

Playing like the cousin of “Peaches en Regalia,” Zappa arranges his band back into jazz-fusion territory, reintroducing a composed sound and instrumentation. Ian Underwood’s piano takes charge for much of the track, implementing his mastery to its fullest extent. At around three minutes in, a deep saxophone line bounces “Green Genes” into more furious soloing from Zappa and company. Drummers can get an education here too as Paul Humphrey teaches how to get in line behind the lead melodies while still exacting a force of rhythm tight enough to wall-off a tsunami.

4. “Little Umbrella”

Zappa reigns in the chaos here, settling into a more straightforward jazz sound. The lack of immense soloing makes “Little Umbrella” the shortest track on the album, and the weakest. I’ve never enjoyed this song unfortunately, and it’s only annoyance with “Hot Rats” on vinyl is that you can’t really skip it.

5. “The Gumbo Variations”

Zappa surrounds himself with the best musicians around and “The Gumbo Variations” is his proof of concept. This track practically beheads its slouchy predecessor right from the start. Underwood cranks out a phenomenal sax solo backed by a downright funky groove that’ll get the stiffest person jiving. Back again is Don “Sugarcane” Harris with an electric violin solo to rival any guitar lord’s best work. I can’t even begin to put the genius drum work into words. The sheer energy driving “The Gumbo Variations” is palpable and will leave you in awe at the stamina behind its performers. Just listening to it will work up a sweat. Thank god for gumbo.

6. “It Must Be a Camel”

The beginning sort of meanders around with a somber piano, bass and drum trio that is oddly beautiful. “It Must Be a Camel” doesn’t become an album highlight, though, until the back half of the track where Zappa and Underwood join to interplay wonderfully between their drastically different instruments. Drummer John Guerin cascades up and down his toms giving the song an iron backbone. “Camel” closes a near perfect album of jazz freak outs with neatly drawn compositions and a lush sound.

http://www.statepress.com/2015/02/05/th ... -hot-rats/


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:36 am 
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+ 8, thanks G_G.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:04 am 
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You just need to own both the Ryko and the Universal. Both are quite different from each other and unique in themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:52 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
You just need to own both the Ryko and the Universal. Both are quite different from each other and unique in themselves.

100% agree!


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 Post subject: re: ratas caliente
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:01 pm 
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nick[ie's such an asshole] latona wrote:
The Vinyl Voyager: Frank Zappa’s ‘Hot Rats’
By Nick Latona


... nearly instrumental Hot Rats. Alongside contemporaries like Miles Davis with his album Bitches’ Brew and Santana’s Caravanserai, ...

... utterly terrifying album cover ...

... opening of “Peaches,” now a jazz fusion standard ... I always found this track to be the most difficult to appreciate ...

... makes “Little Umbrella” the shortest track on the album, and the weakest... it’s only annoyance with “Hot Rats” on vinyl is that you can’t really skip it... ...Gumbo Variations ... practically beheads its slouchy predecessor right from the start

... I can’t even begin to put the genius drum work into words. The sheer energy driving “The Gumbo Variations” is palpable and will leave you in awe at the stamina behind its performers. Just listening to it will work up a sweat. Thank god for gumbo...

... It Must Be a Camel doesn’t become an album highlight, though, until the back half of the track ...
can't resist trashing nickie's review:

caravanserai is mediocre at best ... utterly terrifying cover ¿ nickie, dude, ya gotta get out more ... is peaches a jazz standard ¿ are any zappa songs jazz standards ¿

anyone can have a weakest track, but can't conceive of skipping little umbrellas ¿ wtf ¿ - the nickster prattles about 'freshly cleaned, virgin black vinyl of course' & annoyance he can't skip the track ... yo' nick, it's the 1st track on side 2, that's right chump, put away that cd rip & figure out how to skip the 1st track on an lp side, it's not rocket sci

can't argue about gumbo, he get one ... doesn't get camel, but likes the solos ¿ wtf ¿


nick-o's rock journalism deserves 2/10, maybe even 1.5

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:10 am 
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Wait, opinions don't make assholes.
Opinions are like assholes.

Not name calling/just informing.

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 Post subject: Re: re: ratas caliente
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:07 pm 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
is peaches a jazz standard ¿ are any zappa songs jazz standards ¿


"Peaches" did get into the Real Book along with a lot of jazz standards (and I believe a couple of other Zappa pieces - "Mr. Green Genes" and "Blessed Relief" maybe). I don't suppose it gets called often at jam sessions though.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:54 pm 
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The Real Book I bought in 1986 and it had all 3 of those tunes. Unfortunately, it was stolen in the early 90s and I never bought another one.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:30 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
You just need to own both the Ryko and the Universal. Both are quite different from each other and unique in themselves.


I'll drink to that








.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Gray_Ghost wrote:
nothing in his discography sticks out more to me than 1969’s jazz fusion and nearly instrumental “Hot Rats".

http://zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26452

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