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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:30 am 
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Sy Borg wrote:
Tom29 wrote:
Half of it is such a formless mess that I'm convinced that some people only like it (or at least try to convince themselves that they like it) because it's Zappa.


Not true!!!!!!!! I genuinely love everything on TYS!!!!! I think it's Zappa's very best album! The crown to his work!!!


Yes, TYS is one of the 5, hmm 6 maybe, best zappa albums! I love Dog Meat, Outrage, Pound, G-Spot, Times Beach and so on ... Amazing songs, very good sound quality!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:34 pm 
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Tom29 wrote:
I completely agree with what you said about TYS. Half of it is such a formless mess that I'm convinced that some people only like it (or at least try to convince themselves that they like it) because it's Zappa.

Maybe I just don't "get" this kind of classical music. If the Rage and the Fury ever comes out I may have to kick myself for being a completist.


I don't know about this. I get a genuine thrill out of them. They are very humourous and funky, actually. (None Of The Above is a fantastic piece.)
So I guess I disagree.

(And whoever mentioned the Synclavier pieces on The PErfect Stranger, I mainly refer to Love Story and Outside Now Again, which are nice but not up to the quality I expect.)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:26 pm 
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Tom29 wrote:
... about TYS. Half of it is such a formless mess that I'm convinced that some people only like it (or at least try to convince themselves that they like it) because it's Zappa ...

Why do you have to take your personal feelings about something to infer something negative about other people?

For me there were some obvious tracks on The Yellow Shark that I loved immediately. Although the less obvious ones took some getting used to, this wasn't forced because I was an FZ fan, but rather I found them at least interesting and was driven by curiosity to listen further.

None of the pieces on The Yellow Shark have ever seemed formless or a mess to me. It was clear from the start that they were inspired, well formed and painstakingly constructed.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:00 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
(And whoever mentioned the Synclavier pieces on The PErfect Stranger, I mainly refer to Love Story and Outside Now Again, which are nice but not up to the quality I expect.)


It was me who mentioned the synclavier pieces on TPS..... Man, are you kidding? Outside Now Again is gorgeous!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:46 pm 
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The Yellow Shark was, in my opinion, Zappa going from having boring classical musicians interpreting his noise to 'must be modern in my performance' musicians performing his noise.

We are missing maybe the, inbetween.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:41 pm 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
The Yellow Shark was, in my opinion, Zappa going from having boring classical musicians interpreting his noise to 'must be modern in my performance' musicians performing his noise.

We are missing maybe the, inbetween.

Wow, that's a deep and definitive analysis. You deprecate the music and you deride the musicians who play it.

For the record, The Yellow Shark is one of my favourite FZ albums, for instance, I listen to it more often than Joe's Garage.
    Noise :?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:49 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
(And whoever mentioned the Synclavier pieces on The PErfect Stranger, I mainly refer to Love Story and Outside Now Again, which are nice but not up to the quality I expect.)

Sy Borg wrote:
It was me who mentioned the synclavier pieces on TPS..... Man, are you kidding? Outside Now Again is gorgeous!


The Girl In The Magnesium Dress. awesome.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:00 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
I have to admit it's a little hard for me to get into TYS. I find that album too long, with 70 minutes and all. And the more orthodox pieces do it for me, from Dog Meat and Outrage to Tornado. Someone called the newer material on it formless blather for the most part, and i can't say i disagree that much. There's not much form there. it's not like I dislike atonalism. I've got into "Pedro's Dowry" which was flat out dismissed by a critic as a "half drunk orchestra rehearsal", but stuff like Ruth Is Sleeping or Times Beach, I'm not sure what to make of them.

I do like the sinister atmosphere of TPS. Many of the pieces could well work for a movie. and those two Synclavier pieces that close the album are some of his best work with the machine.
It would be hard to pick through TYS piece by piece but its strengths outweigh its weaker points and "formless blather" and "a half drunk orchestra" immediately ring of that typical, empty critical rhetoric that critics (?) have relied on for years to hold FZ to some impossible standard to which they hold no one else. (I've always wanted to take any one of these fucking assholes and fool him entirely into thinking that what he was about to hear was anyone but Zappa and see how he reacted to it then.)

It's been too obvious for too long that the name decides the perception before the content does and that critical over-reaction has been so passionately intense that you might think FZ was nothing less than a flat-out criminal guilty of mass-murder being talked about rather than a musician/composer!!!

Well, my complaint about "TYS" is that it's too short!

--Bat

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:04 am 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
The Yellow Shark was, in my opinion, Zappa going from having boring classical musicians interpreting his noise to 'must be modern in my performance' musicians performing his noise.

We are missing maybe the, inbetween.


Okay, this is the answer to this topic's question "what's FZ's most underrated album": Well obviously THE YELLOW SHARK!!! :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:48 am 
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Hey polydigm here's another post of mine, why don't you quote it and criticize it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:11 am 
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I don't like 'explaining' why people should like works, but I've always found that giving a specific way to hearing something tends to help people appreciate something.

For instance, Ruth is Sleeping is a ridiculously complex piece. But on the other hand, the score does not specify any dynamics or tempo, forcing the performer to 'interpret' these incredibly hard passage, into an impressionist vies of Ruth's Dream (Or Nightmare)

Times Beach, on the other hand, is really sort of goofy and actually melodic in some parts. I'm not sure, but it doesn't really feel like Zappa notated dynamics on this piece either..as the liner notes to The Yellow Shark show, the EM didn't get it until Zappa 'sang it'. Like I said, it's actually a really humourous, funny piece, and it reminds me of Varese's Octandre alot.

Anyway, take these with a grain of salt..I'd never accuse anyone of being openminded, but these two pieces definatley take a little more effort than other things. But the pay off is TREMENDOUS.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:10 pm 
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Sy Borg wrote:
Eric Vaxxine wrote:
The Yellow Shark was, in my opinion, Zappa going from having boring classical musicians interpreting his noise to 'must be modern in my performance' musicians performing his noise.

We are missing maybe the, inbetween.


Okay, this is the answer to this topic's question "what's FZ's most underrated album": Well obviously THE YELLOW SHARK!!! :roll:


It took four pages to get here, you might just be right?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:26 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Eric Vaxxine wrote:
The Yellow Shark was, in my opinion, Zappa going from having boring classical musicians interpreting his noise to 'must be modern in my performance' musicians performing his noise.

We are missing maybe the, inbetween.

Wow, that's a deep and definitive analysis. You deprecate the music and you deride the musicians who play it.

For the record, The Yellow Shark is one of my favourite FZ albums, for instance, I listen to it more often than Joe's Garage.
    Noise :?


I haven't, hopefully, derided the musicians on TYS, but I am suggesting that their interpretation is intrinsically biased towards a new/modern interpretation of how classical composition can sound. Perfect for FZ, as we know him.

As for depreciating his music in your opinion, I can only apologise. I am in no position high enough to cast meaningful evaluation of his work.

NOISE - sorry - air sculpture more like.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:55 pm 
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Tom29 wrote:
Hey polydigm here's another post of mine, why don't you quote it and criticize it.

All I did was ask you a question. You think it's a formless mess so you assume that it is a formless mess and that other people are only pretending to like it out of some fanly duty to FZ. I asked you why you have to assume that, rather than, that it's just not to your taste? Is that an unreasonable question?

Maybe there are people who say they like certain things out of some expectation that they think they should but I was speaking up on behalf of those who actually do like The Yellow Shark in it's entirety. I feel no obligation to FZ per se, I listen to what I like, I'm not afraid of criticising his output. For instance, I think his sense of humour was often a bit puerile and get tired of some of his songs because of the lyrics. Musically though, including all the songs, I like roughly 99% of his musical output.

And anyway, this is a forum, why shouldn't we quote each other in the process of discussion?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:11 pm 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
I haven't, hopefully, derided the musicians on TYS, but I am suggesting that their interpretation is intrinsically biased towards a new/modern interpretation of how classical composition can sound. Perfect for FZ, as we know him.

Their interpretation was not based on a "must be modern in my performance" attitude which is what I found deriding. It was based on a genuine desire to achieve the best performance according to FZ's requirements. Which ultimately is what performance of composition was about according to FZ. There are performers who believe that performance is more about the performer and individual interpretation. Whatever the case, the Ensemble Modern had the advantage of being able to work closely with the composer himself over an extended period of time and that gave them an advantage over people who can only work with scores.

Also with classical musicians, some of them may be boring but a significant percentage of them are not.

Eric Vaxxine wrote:
As for depreciating his music in your opinion, I can only apologise. I am in no position high enough to cast meaningful evaluation of his work.

NOISE - sorry - air sculpture more like.

Maybe I jumped to conclusions here but I've never seen or heard the term "noise" used in other than a deprecating sense about music.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:51 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
I have to admit it's a little hard for me to get into TYS. I find that album too long, with 70 minutes and all. And the more orthodox pieces do it for me, from Dog Meat and Outrage to Tornado. Someone called the newer material on it formless blather for the most part, and i can't say i disagree that much. There's not much form there. it's not like I dislike atonalism. I've got into "Pedro's Dowry" which was flat out dismissed by a critic as a "half drunk orchestra rehearsal", but stuff like Ruth Is Sleeping or Times Beach, I'm not sure what to make of them.

I do like the sinister atmosphere of TPS. Many of the pieces could well work for a movie. and those two Synclavier pieces that close the album are some of his best work with the machine.


. . . . . short attention span?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:58 pm 
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judging from previous discussions (among zappa fans... hmm) it looks like it's these ones:

Image Image Image Image

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:24 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
. . . . . short attention span?


See the problem isn't length per se, but whether or not the length of the album is justified?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:58 am 
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In general, I don't listen to a lot of mid-late 20th century classical music (I'm still planning to delve deeper into it, but other musics that have my more immediate interest keep distracting me.. ;) ), and I'm hardly capable of judging whether the more abstract stuff on The Yellow Shark is any good and/or up to the level of other contemporary composers.

All I can say is that it's an interesting listen and I like it, even though I might not necessarily understand what the musicians are trying to achieve, and I'm pretty conscious of the fact that some of the music on that album is way over my head.

On the other hand, most of the times I actually prefer to listen to 'Everything is healing nicely', which seems to have a more loose, improvised and plain 'fun' feel that The Yellow Shark and most of FZs other 'serious' compositions seem to lack, for my tastes.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:18 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
On the other hand, most of the times I actually prefer to listen to 'Everything is healing nicely', which seems to have a more loose, improvised and plain 'fun' feel that The Yellow Shark and most of FZs other 'serious' compositions seem to lack, for my tastes.


Yes, EIHN is great!! 9/8 Objects must be the coolest song ever made!
8)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:06 am 
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Tinseltown_Banana wrote:
9/8 Objects must be the coolest song ever made!
8)


i must say I agree!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:08 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
judging from previous discussions (among zappa fans... hmm) it looks like it's these ones:

Image Image Image Image


and most of 'em have relatively un-attractive cover art too (at least when compared to the masterwork of Schenkel from 60s-70s).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:15 am 
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Without giving it too much thought, or looking through the albums, I'd say:

Thing-Fish

and

Waka/Jawaka


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:28 am 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
Lumpy Gravy wrote:
judging from previous discussions (among zappa fans... hmm) it looks like it's these ones:

Image Image Image Image


and most of 'em have relatively un-attractive cover art too (at least when compared to the masterwork of Schenkel from 60s-70s).


Even though FZ looks like a sick old lady on The Yellow Shark's cover, it's a very intense photo actually! It would be cruel to say I like it, because one can really see he was very ill when the picture was taken. But let me at least say it's a very characteristic picture!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:35 am 
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The most underrated song - We Are Not Alone.
A simple but very good song, my band often plays it at soundchecks.

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Last edited by Tinseltown_Banana on Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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