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 Post subject: Guitar
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 4:19 pm 
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Always loved "Watermelon in Easter Hay". But then it got better here. Gorgeous! Anyway, just paid thirty dollars for this two cd set. So that makes 34 albums for me. Little over half way now... :P<br><br>Whattya you guys think of this release?

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 8:29 pm 
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It's one of my least favorite Zappa albums.  I think it has NONE of the charm that made Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar such a great collection.  I know this will probably get me killed here, but I think most of Frank's guitar solos from the 80's were really meandering and aimless.  I don't even really like his guitar tone on most of those solos.  The set has a handful of tracks I enjoy, but for the most part, I think it's a total drag to sit through.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 9:10 pm 
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This is one of the best collections of Zappa solo's ever! The 1982 solo's are the most complex and weird solo's Zappa ever done.The best are the ones with the reggae beat underneath them layed down by the finest rhythm section Zappa ever had, Wackerman/Thunes! Highly recommended to the [font=Verdana]REAL[/font] Frank Zappa fan!<br><br>Image

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 Post subject: re: guitar
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:36 pm 
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one of my favs...guitar's a bit more polished imo than shutup, smoother segues , also give the '81 & '82 solos high marks...good point about the tone, he dropped the cool flanger¿ for the most part except for fulcanelli ; what sets the 2 albums apart for me is the different flavor drum/bass;  chad/thunes vs vinnie/barrow set the albums apart from each other<br><br>hardly meandering and aimless, orrin on skis is a fucking classic, winos the best rock versions of sharleena, swans is all over the map, watermelon etc etc... the entire disc 2 is tops<br><br>in fact, an oddball track on the guitar lp is the inca solo/system of edges...notwithstanding that it's superb solo in itself, & i'm glad frank included it for continuity ... it's like the lone representative of the shutup trio on the guitar album<br><br>compare the 4 cotl solos on guitar to santana...my fav: things that look like meat followed by outside now, santana,  & g minor<br><br>compare the 6 or 7 cleveland solos on guitar...totaly different sound & feel from the fairly harsh canadian customs to the fairly melodic is that all there is<br><br>compare the black page solos on guitar also totally different<br><br>guitar is in my top 5 fz albums, always has been since it came out, fav solo on guitar is do not pass go !!

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 5:22 am 
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Eh, I don't know.  Usually whenever I listen to it, I mostly find myself thinking, "Did Frank have to use a reggae vamp on every goddamn song during the '84 tour?"


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:25 am 
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I have to agree here, there are definitely too many reggae vamps in '82 and '84. <br>Some of them work at times, but for the most the non-reggae vamp is much better.<br><br>One earlier case, that I don't recall being mentioned on this board, is Treacherous Cretins. It was played since '79 and we know the reggae 4/4 version on SUAPYG. But the same song was sometimes performed over a 11/4 arpeggio which was INCREDIBLY MORE EFFECTIVE. If you have some '79 boots then you know what I mean.<br>Well Frank from'81 till the end decided to chose only one version of this song and... guess what, he played it ALWAYS over the 4/4 reggae vamp...

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am 
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I enjoyed the reggae vamp when I first heard him use it, which was probably on Them Or Us.  I thought it added a lot of color, but Jesus Christ did he go overkill with it.  <br><br>Going back to Guitar, even if the solos are his weirdest and most complex, I simply find them downright unpleasant to listen to.  I don't even find them interestingly ugly.  I just think they're ugly and droney.  The thing that amazed me about Shut Up is how good Frank and his band were at coming up with neat ideas on the spot and making all the instruments blend into cool and sometimes amazingly beautiful ("The Deathless Horsie") moments.  I think that Guitar is almost completely lacking in that feeling.  I think it truly sounds like a bunch of random notes and lines played over an uninteresting backing band.  I don't hear the amazing warmth and cohesion of the bands on Shut Up.  I do think there are a few really great tracks on it ("Sexual Harrassment," "Sunrise Redeemer," and a few others), but I just don't get why so many FZ fans defend this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:44 am 
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I like it cuz it's spontaneous composition by my favorite composer.<br><br>But, to each his own:  If it sounds good to YOU, it's bitchen.  If it sounds bad to YOU, it's shitty.  <br><br>To ME, Guitar sounds good so it's bitchen.<br><br>VCF

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:44 am 
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[quote author=unica link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#10 date=05/24/04 at 13:29:07]Why no reggae? Do you want ballet music...or polka? IT'S ABOUT FRANK'S SOLO'S, AND I CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF THEM!!! ;D<br>[/quote]<br><br>...Because Frank used reggae vamps for almost all of his solos in the 80's.  I think it makes so many of his solos from the 80's sound interchangeable and boring.  It sucks that someone as unpredictable as Frank chose one predictable-as-fuck background for so many of his solos.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:19 pm 
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[quote author=madcow1515 link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#4 date=05/22/04 at 08:22:40]"Did Frank have to use a reggae vamp on every goddamn song during the '84 tour?"[/quote]<br><br>The only time I tend to think this way is in the 88's TBBYNHIYL guitar solo on the gorgeous Zoot Allures...<br>

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:22 pm 
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Picky?  Or just don't feel like listening to a bunch of solos that sound the same?   ;)


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 Post subject: re: guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:37 pm 
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[quote author=Mikah link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#7 date=05/24/04 at 09:25:48]...One earlier case, that I don't recall being mentioned on this board, is Treacherous Cretins. It was played since '79 and we know the reggae 4/4 version on SUAPYG. But the same song was sometimes performed over a 11/4 arpeggio which was INCREDIBLY MORE EFFECTIVE. If you have some '79 boots then you know what I mean.<br>Well Frank from'81 till the end decided to chose only one version of this song and... guess what, he played it ALWAYS over the 4/4 reggae vamp...[/quote]<br><br>it's hard for non-musicians like me to pick up on the 2 variations you describe above other than they sound different... but now that you mention it, i can hear the 11/4 vs. the 4/4 ....i'd say the 11/4 is a lot more interesting than the 4/4, but incredibly more effective?¿?  maybe marginally more effective until you pointed out the difference, now i like both versions equally....the 11/4 theme sounds more sinister, frank sounds like he's working harder during the '79 solos (zurich/hamburg/oslo) than the '81 solos (detroit, nyc) but the 4/4's seems to roll off the guitar a lot smoother<br><br>i still think fz reggae vamps are irie mon, the zoot solo on dhbim dvd is incredible, same with the zoot solos he opened some of the 81 shows (santa monica, syracuse)

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 Post subject: re: guitar
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 2:19 pm 
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[quote author=madcow1515 link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#8 date=05/24/04 at 12:32:17]....Guitar is almost completely lacking in that feeling.  I think it truly sounds like a bunch of random notes and lines played over an uninteresting backing band. ...<br><br>...but I just don't get why so many FZ fans defend this one.[/quote]<br><br>[quote author=fz in the real fz book link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=15#16 date=stuff about playing the guitar]....in order to engage in the type of improvisational escapades that seem natural to me, i must be accompanied by a 'specialized' rythym section<br><br>...the problem lies in polyrythyms; the chance of finding a drummer, bass player & keyboard player who can conceive of those polyrythyms--let alone identify them fast enough to play a complimentary figure on the moment are not good (grand prize goes to vinnie)<br><br>it's hard to explain to a rythym section during rehearsal what to do if i'm playing 17 in the space of 14.....i can't specify in advance everything that ought to happen in the accompaniment when the shit hits the fan in the middle of a solo<br><br>either a drummer will play steady time, in which case my line will wander all over his time, or he will hear the polyrythyms and play inside them....jazz drummers can't do it either, because they tend to play flexible time....<br><br>during the '84 tour i would usually play 8 solos/night (5 nights/week times 6 months) and out of that there might have been 20 solos that were musically worthwhile to put on a record; the rest of it was garbage...most of it just didn't come off[/quote] <br><br> ::)<br>

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 Post subject: Re: guitar
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:19 pm 
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[quote author=slime.oofytv.set link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=15#16 date=05/26/04 at 17:19:07]<br><br> during the '84 tour i would usually play 8 solos/night (5 nights/week times 6 months) and out of that there might have been 20 solos that were musically worthwhile to put on a record; the rest of it was garbage...most of it just didn't come off <br><br> ::)<br>[/quote]<br><br>Then about five of those 20 solos must be on Guitar.  I'm glad that Frank admitted this problem.  I just don't get why he chose to release so much of the '84 tour on albums.  Whenever I hear someone name the '84 tour as their favorite, I never can understand it.  Back to the main issue though, I don't find his guitar playing on the set particularly interesting.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that Frank didn't practise his guitar playing nearly as much in the 80's as he did in the 70's.  When I listen to his 70's solos, I hear tons of great, beautiful, and interesting licks.  When I listen to his 80's solos, I feel like I'm just listening to a big mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 7:06 am 
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I like Guitar. Not quite as much as SUPYG, but like it nonetheless.......madcow, you hit the nail on the head I think, by saying that it doesnt quite have the "charm" of Shut Up...., I think thats pretty accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:23 pm 
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Wow, a heated discussion. Still haven't really had time to properly listen to this album yet. I think when I do I'll come back and argue. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:00 pm 
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I'm not too familiar with "SUNPYG," so I can't speak relatively, but no one can tell me that Chad Wackerman wasn't a fucking genius drummer.  Even Terry Bozzio said that Chad was the best drummer ever to play with FZ, and while Chad did tend to suffer a bit due to FZ's preference for a very cold, digital drum sound in the early '80s, Chad played polyrhythms. . .<br><br>here I go. . . .<br><br>BETTER THAN VINNIE COLAIUTA.<br><br>Plus, the warm, lush sound he gets on "Broadway," "Jazz Noise," and "Best Band" totally reveals the ferocious invention and turn-on-a-dime versatility of his playing.<br><br>Chad, I salute you.

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