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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:17 pm 
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I don't understand the somewhat bad rap on Chad. He played everything put before him. Maybe if he hadn't followed Vinnie.....

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:05 am 
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As others have said, I think the main 'problem' with Zappa-era Chad is a combination of the kit with the dated electronics, which truth to tell blighted a lot of Zappa's eighties output, and not just the drums. Think of all those dated sample experiments/sounds (and I don't mean the majority of the Synclavier stuff, which I like, and which was capable of some programmed subtlety). Zappa's guitar tone never got better than the SUNPYG sounds. For me his tone on 'Guitar' just doesn't have the same 'liveliness' or 'air' about it.
The vamps that Zappa solos over aren't as pleasing to my ear-maybe they lack the immediacy that SUNPYG had.
Another factoid (IMO) is that the songwriting was not of the same quality, with perhaps too much emphasis on televangelism and stuff-stuff which although still vaguely relevant, absolutely dates the output.
I think all of the above colour my opinion of Chad-era Zappa.
I have a huge amount of respect for Chad-his work with Holdsworth is Stunning, and to ears just gets better. Some of the interplay between Chad and Holdsworth on the live recordings is right up there with the Frank/Vinnie stuff. He is a virtuoso, no doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: guitar
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Guy Cool wrote:
As others have said, I think the main 'problem' with Zappa-era Chad is a combination of the kit with the dated electronics, which truth to tell blighted a lot of Zappa's eighties output, and not just the drums. Think of all those dated sample experiments/sounds (and I don't mean the majority of the Synclavier stuff, which I like, and which was capable of some programmed subtlety). Zappa's guitar tone never got better than the SUNPYG sounds. For me his tone on 'Guitar' just doesn't have the same 'liveliness' or 'air' about it.

couldn't agree more. 'shut up n play yer guitar' is, for me at least, much more interesting, in every way, than 'guitar'.

but, of course, chad was (and is) an amazing drummer.
however, compared to vinnie, chad didn't quite make it.

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 Post subject: Re: guitar
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Guy Cool wrote:
As others have said, I think the main 'problem' with Zappa-era Chad is a combination of the kit with the dated electronics, which truth to tell blighted a lot of Zappa's eighties output, and not just the drums. Think of all those dated sample experiments/sounds (and I don't mean the majority of the Synclavier stuff, which I like, and which was capable of some programmed subtlety). Zappa's guitar tone never got better than the SUNPYG sounds. For me his tone on 'Guitar' just doesn't have the same 'liveliness' or 'air' about it.

couldn't agree more. 'shut up n play yer guitar' is, for me at least, much more interesting, in every way, than 'guitar'.

but, of course, chad was (and is) an amazing drummer.
however, compared to vinnie, chad didn't quite make it.


Correct sir, until trance-fusion, I only thought shut up to be the definitive guitar FZ, but there are things on TF that are full of wonderment.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:43 pm 
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Guy Cool wrote:
As others have said, I think the main 'problem' with Zappa-era Chad is a combination of the kit with the dated electronics, which truth to tell blighted a lot of Zappa's eighties output, and not just the drums. Think of all those dated sample experiments/sounds (and I don't mean the majority of the Synclavier stuff, which I like, and which was capable of some programmed subtlety). Zappa's guitar tone never got better than the SUNPYG sounds. For me his tone on 'Guitar' just doesn't have the same 'liveliness' or 'air' about it.
The vamps that Zappa solos over aren't as pleasing to my ear-maybe they lack the immediacy that SUNPYG had.
Another factoid (IMO) is that the songwriting was not of the same quality, with perhaps too much emphasis on televangelism and stuff-stuff which although still vaguely relevant, absolutely dates the output.
I think all of the above colour my opinion of Chad-era Zappa.
I have a huge amount of respect for Chad-his work with Holdsworth is Stunning, and to ears just gets better. Some of the interplay between Chad and Holdsworth on the live recordings is right up there with the Frank/Vinnie stuff. He is a virtuoso, no doubt.


I agree with just about every single word written here :D


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:56 pm 
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I thought Guitar was decent,
Sunrise Redeemer, Canadian Customs, When No one Was No one etc.

His tones may not have been better than SUAPYG but his technique really had developed.
Just listen to what he does with the wammy bar! ....sick!
Also his phrasing is better. The solos seemed more "outro" as well. A little more avant garde and "angular."

I think his brain was getting more complex with where he wanted to go on the neck.

However there seemed like there were too many reggae vamps going on...

I wasn't a big fan of Trancefusion. It didn't "hit me" on first listen so I kind of filed it.
Too much like METAL for my tastes but I guess I should give it another go.

I hope JOE comes across more guitar instrumental stuff to compile something new!


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:56 pm 
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I've been listening to Guitar a lot recently. Over the years, it has really grown on me after my first impressions were somewhat unfavorable.

There is a lot of good commentary here on Guitar, but one aspect I don't think gets mentioned enough (when comparing to SUNPYG) is the overall sound difference in the two recordings. Guitar is clearly put out as a "live" album without a lot sound mixing to make you think otherwise. I realize SUNPYG is a live recording too, but Frank made it sound like it could have been recorded in a studio. For me, this makes SUNPYG a little more polished sounding, and the overall flow of the album is more...consistent.

When comparing the two albums, the listener should compare System of Edges to the Inca tracks from SUNPYG. This solo is from the same era, and the overall sound difference highlights what my ears hear when comparing the two albums.

I love both albums, and right now if pressed to pick one to take to a desert island, I might just grab Guitar.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:31 pm 
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bracton wrote:
... but one aspect I don't think gets mentioned enough (when comparing to SUNPYG) is the overall sound difference in the two recordings. Guitar is clearly put out as a "live" album without a lot sound mixing to make you think otherwise. I realize SUNPYG is a live recording too, but Frank made it sound like it could have been recorded in a studio. For me, this makes SUNPYG a little more polished sounding, and the overall flow of the album is more...consistent....

I have to admit that the guitarsolo albums belong to the few FZalbums that can bore me sometimes, cause only guitarsolos, wouldn't everybody expect to be bored? (did anybody else this kind of albums? Would u listen to a pure guitarsolo compilation by any rockguitarist? Hendrix of course...). If u have this point of view than guitar is the most pure soloalbum, it really only contains guitarsolos and they are nearly all live. Shut up contains a lot of non100%guitar stuff: Not only the amazing final piece, but also the lumpygravytype dialogminiatures. They add a very interesting layer to the album thats completely missing on guitar (imaging the wonderful canarsie without this wonderful echovoice starting the piece). In percentage there is not much nonguitarsolo material on shut up, but it is enough to provide permanent change and relief from the pure soloing on guitar. And don't forget the 'polishing', some overdub here or there...
Trance fusion also is not 100% pure, the first piece kept its original title and is not only an isolated solo, first and last piece are duets with his son.
From this point of view guitar is the most radical album in this direction, nothing else than guitarsolos for 2 hours (no electric sitar anywhere)! No wonder that some have problems with it.
I always liked the electronic drums (my first album was does humor..), the more the better: Republicans is 1 of my favs on guitar (or penguin in bondage on humor). I also don't like the reggealoops as background too much. All 3 albums contain wonderful pieces but they are all difficult to hear in entirety. (Only my humble opinion) :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Guitar seems to have infinite replay value for me. :arrow:


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:17 pm 
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I never get bored listening to Shut Up or Guitar.
I forget this is guitar sounds and I just hear a voice telling me strange stories.
It's amazing!

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:46 am 
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jeddy wrote:
I hope JOE comes across more guitar instrumental stuff to compile something new!

There are some awesome and deep versions of Ancient Armaments and Persona Non Grata from 1978 in audience recordings, and I'm sure there are unreleased professional recordings of those songs in the vault also. Even the soundboard cassette that Zappa brought along to a radio station after the October 25, 1978 show in Danvers, MA is releasable when you compare it to Joe's Menage. I just hope that someone with a say in the ZFT understands the unique value of Zappa's most abstract soloing and interplay with Barrow and Colaiuta. In those pieces in 1978/79, the Sheik Yerbouti proved himself as a true mystic on the path of the guitar :idea: ...

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:12 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
Even the soundboard cassette that Zappa brought along to a radio station after the October 25, 1978 show in Danvers, MA is releasable when you compare it to Joe's Menage.
When you compare it to Joe's Menage, Anything is releasable -- I'm still dreaming of a rubber ZFT Mammy that spits out 'Dance Me This' when hit on the head with one of the 'Outr-age' disks
8)


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:07 am 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
Even the soundboard cassette that Zappa brought along to a radio station after the October 25, 1978 show in Danvers, MA is releasable when you compare it to Joe's Menage.
When you compare it to Joe's Menage, Anything is releasable -- I'm still dreaming of a rubber ZFT Mammy that spits out 'Dance Me This' when hit on the head with one of the 'Outr-age' disks
8)

Well, Joe's Menage may be a pretty weak standard, for sure, but the point was that a decent editor with big ears could put together a fucking awesome guitar album from the 1978 band alone. And that could be just another TIP of the iceberg...

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:16 am 
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Nice thought, DC, and maybe even a Vol II with all the nice ones from 1975 - 7 ? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:57 am 
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I can listen to Guitar all day in a loop, fantastic. What about Variations on Sinister #3 for a dialogue.
Those solos have a Raga feel in the way they "talk" to each other. Holy Cow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWXenHfehA

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:20 am 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
Even the soundboard cassette that Zappa brought along to a radio station after the October 25, 1978 show in Danvers, MA is releasable when you compare it to Joe's Menage.
When you compare it to Joe's Menage, Anything is releasable -- I'm still dreaming of a rubber ZFT Mammy that spits out 'Dance Me This' when hit on the head with one of the 'Outr-age' disks
8)


Hey! Where've you been?!

I've been missing the BV music recommendations.
Welcome back (or maybe you haven't been gone, and I am a dipstick...)


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:01 am 
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I really like the guitar solo albums. I hope they release more.
How about the variations on Treacherous like this one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67mJ91RdwfY

I agree there are some great persona non-grata and ancient armaments out there - Palladium NYC 28 Oct 1978 Early show is a good one.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Guitar is definitely a difficult album...many of the solos are much more experimental and generally less accessibly melodic than the material on Shut Up. I personally think Guitar's difficulty makes it interesting and unique as an album though. It documents a different aspect of Frank's improvisation...mathematical, aggressive, insane, always exploring new ideas. You can definitely see the influence of Indian music that Frank said influenced him.


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 Post subject: Re: guitar
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:13 pm 
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enggo_pah wrote:
[quote author=slime.oofytv.set link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#13 date=05/25/04 at 15:37:29]<br><br>it's hard for non-musicians like me to pick up on the 2 variations you describe above other than they sound different... but now that you mention it, i can hear the 11/4 vs. the 4/4 ....i'd say the 11/4 is a lot more interesting than the 4/4, but incredibly more effective?¿?  maybe marginally more effective until you pointed out the difference, now i like both versions equally....the 11/4 theme sounds more sinister, frank sounds like he's working harder during the '79 solos (zurich/hamburg/oslo) than the '81 solos (detroit, nyc) but the 4/4's seems to roll off the guitar a lot smoother<br><br>i still think fz reggae vamps are irie mon, the zoot solo on dhbim dvd is incredible, same with the zoot solos he opened some of the 81 shows (santa monica, syracuse)
<br><br><br>I think this is one of the few (lemme think.... ONE) examples of a song of Frank's where the simpler thing was more effective. I think the solos he played over the 4/4 vamp worked a lot better on that song. The 11/8 vamp irritated me with that song (and usually it's the other way around. I prefer odd times).[/quote]

I am a big Zappateers user and forum member but I actually had to open an account here just to say I agree with you entirely, the 11/8 is very off balance and not in a good way. The 4/4 version is definitive.


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