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 Post subject: Re: guitar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:37 pm 
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[quote author=slime.oofytv.set link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=0#13 date=05/25/04 at 15:37:29]<br><br>it's hard for non-musicians like me to pick up on the 2 variations you describe above other than they sound different... but now that you mention it, i can hear the 11/4 vs. the 4/4 ....i'd say the 11/4 is a lot more interesting than the 4/4, but incredibly more effective?¿?  maybe marginally more effective until you pointed out the difference, now i like both versions equally....the 11/4 theme sounds more sinister, frank sounds like he's working harder during the '79 solos (zurich/hamburg/oslo) than the '81 solos (detroit, nyc) but the 4/4's seems to roll off the guitar a lot smoother<br><br>i still think fz reggae vamps are irie mon, the zoot solo on dhbim dvd is incredible, same with the zoot solos he opened some of the 81 shows (santa monica, syracuse)[/quote]<br><br><br>I think this is one of the few (lemme think.... ONE) examples of a song of Frank's where the simpler thing was more effective. I think the solos he played over the 4/4 vamp worked a lot better on that song. The 11/8 vamp irritated me with that song (and usually it's the other way around. I prefer odd times).

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 Post subject: re: guitar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:12 pm 
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this album held the numba 1 spot on my fz list for about 5 years when it came out [still in the top 7]; now it's reached equilibrium with shut up 'n play yer guitar; the '82 tracks showcase a new level of feedback/tone expertise compared to previous tours as disco boy points out<br><br>also, compare all 3 drowning witch solos: san antonio is completely different than fulcanelli or do not fucking pass go, one of zappa's truly awesome efforts, on a par with st. etienne<br><br>the 2 zoot solos are quite different, the l.m.t.cleveland solos are similarly diverse, with 3 of them a much tougher listen than the other 2 [goa & sunrise redeemer]<br><br>the liner notes never indicated what song or what show the solo was extracted from, very mysterious for about 10 years until someone figured them out<br><br><br>here's a printer-friendly .pdf of some guitar credits & notes you can fire it off on yer printer, fold on the dotted line, bring it into your motel room and do whatever you want with it, ya know what I mean ¿<br> <br>

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:55 am 
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I don't like this 'un half as much as Shut Yer F00kin' Mouth N' Play Yer Geetar, but awesome guitar solos are plentiful.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:14 am 
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[quote author=timmoggio82 link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=30#31 date=10/26/05 at 06:51:23]<br><br>are you with me on this people  ???[/quote]<br><br>yeah, i'm with you timmo :)

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:59 am 
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aaand one mo' again!  ;)<br><br>First I thought Guitar was arduous for the best part. Then I got into it more, like so often. Freinds of mine say Sexual Harrassment is great but just promises something the whole album don't keep....Hm, they also like U2  ;D me, I I don't think so. <br>Today I also like the weirder stuff. But I feel the weirdest solos have been played by Frank on the Fall Tour 1980 and during the "free form" sections in Cleveland and/or Easy Meat in 82/82.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:22 pm 
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Great album and one of my first.<br>Nice album to put on when your just noodling around.


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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:35 pm 
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Guitar lacks grit for me.  The reggae beats and phroo phroo keyboard licks are a bit too "happy"<br><br>I always prefered the straight up Fender Rhodes and Organ sound to those contemporary sounding keys.  Horn patches on keys are not good... not good.   Unless you're talking mellotron.

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:41 pm 
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[quote author=timmoggio82 link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=30#41 date=02/08/06 at 14:57:35]<br><br>you should listen to For Duane then...and all the others..<br><br>that's the oddest opinion i've read on here for a while!<br><br>ok.. maybe since earlier today sometime or other.  ;D[/quote]<br><br>Maybe grit isnt the right word.  It's kind of clean compared to Shut Up.  That grimey underneath stuff Vinny was great at... more "mean" sounding instrumentation??  Shit...  I figure it's the style of music on most of it... the reggae stuff.  Ya know... that's it right on the head.  Reggae stuff.  Just doesnt work for me.  I do enjoy all the other tracks though.  I want to love everything Zappa did but sometimes I dont like his choice of direction.   ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:35 pm 
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I have always thought of "Shut Up..." as one of the best Zappa albums in terms of showing off his genious as a guitar player. Especially the "title tracks" are so wonderful in sound, progression (in terms of solos, not chords;  ;) ), mood, etc.; and most of the rest are fantastic as well (as previously mentioned on the thread, "The Deathless Horsie" is great, but also "5-5-5" and "T. Cretins" are stunning).<br><br>"Guitar" is a different issue to me. The choice of solos reflects - to me - a choice of showing experimentations in a new direction, where SUAPYG more or less confirmed and documented a certain established standard on record. The direction on "Guitar" is definitely characterized by a "meaner" guitar sound, and by a much more unconventional approach to tonality. This may be the reason why some have reservations.<br><br>I like the album a lot, nevertheless, but not as much as "Shut up". I repeat lots of what people have said, when I state my opinion: Too many solos are too identical in the scales used, and the reggae beat is overdone. However, the greatest drawback (which unfortunately somewhat "contaminated" the whole 1984 tour") is the digital drums! They are really hard to listen to. Great that Frank abandoned this idea in 88!<br><br>While we wait for the next guitar solo album to be (hopefully) released, I think that people should definitely pick up "Guitar"! It does contain a lot of great stuff. My favourite is "Watermelon...." Man,...., just listen to the final E major chord - it really blows your mind!!!<br><br>- HJ

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:27 pm 
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[quote author=HJ link=board=albums;num=1085192360;start=30#44 date=02/08/06 at 17:35:41]I have always thought of "Shut Up..." as one of the best Zappa albums in terms of showing off his genious as a guitar player. Especially the "title tracks" are so wonderful in sound, progression (in terms of solos, not chords;  ;) ), mood, etc.; and most of the rest are fantastic as well (as previously mentioned on the thread, "The Deathless Horsie" is great, but also "5-5-5" and "T. Cretins" are stunning).<br><br>"Guitar" is a different issue to me. The choice of solos reflects - to me - a choice of showing experimentations in a new direction, where SUAPYG more or less confirmed and documented a certain established standard on record. The direction on "Guitar" is definitely characterized by a "meaner" guitar sound, and by a much more unconventional approach to tonality. This may be the reason why some have reservations.<br><br>I like the album a lot, nevertheless, but not as much as "Shut up". I repeat lots of what people have said, when I state my opinion: Too many solos are too identical in the scales used, and the reggae beat is overdone. However, the greatest drawback (which unfortunately somewhat "contaminated" the whole 1984 tour") is the digital drums! They are really hard to listen to. Great that Frank abandoned this idea in 88!<br><br>While we wait for the next guitar solo album to be (hopefully) released, I think that people should definitely pick up "Guitar"! It does contain a lot of great stuff. My favourite is "Watermelon...." Man,...., just listen to the final E major chord - it really blows your mind!!!<br><br>- HJ[/quote]<br><br>The drums is the worst part for me too.  It's like freezedried cardboard.<br>

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:04 pm 
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...

Gee, I remember the first time listening to it, and actually being a bit disappointed, because then I didn't think it matched the SUNPYG albums, which were (are) amongst my favourites...

I didn't listen much frequently to it, until taking it along with me to my trips to work. I have been spinning it time after time for about three weeks now, and yesterday I had a sensation I haven't been having for a while now, as in it life is so good, because of going to work in the morning with such incredible music...

No words do justice to what Frank is playing on this album... so, that is all I have to say about that (in Forest Gump's words), but...

This somehow relates to the way I felt the first time I ever heard Zappa, after I discovered it and when the only thing I knew then was Apostrophe's title track, St-Alphonzo/Vivian segue section and Overnite's Zomby-Woof, which is to say the Ralph Humphrey drums sound (and Jim Gordon, I could say was another drummer), when I bought SATLTSADW and I listen to it and became a bit disappointed because it was not that RH sound (but what I knew then, hey). I remember listening to it, liking a lot, and thinking, the drummer obviously can play, but still not that sound that hooked me so much. And I remember the way I regarded Chad, on the bottom spectrum of Frank's drummers list, until, more recently, say 4 years ago, when I became more and more interested in his playing.

I am partially trendmonging that much, because of the comment someone made on the drum sound thread (and I respect his opinion) about not liking Chad's sound AND playing, saying he feels he is playing the kind of using the wrong stuff at the wrong moment even though technically skilled (sort of the way I felt before)...

... but Chad's playing in this record is unbelievable. Maybe a compilation of his best performance's along Zappa.

Add it to that the fact I believe I was rather suggested by Frank's lines on TRFZB about Vinnie getting the big prize in interlocking with his solos. I mean, Vinnie is still an alien (I guess Steve Vai's words) and a true drumming icon, but I am amazed with Chad's butt kicking in this record.

I guess I became more and more acquainted with the subtleties of his playing for his work with Alan Holdsworth...

And I am truly amazed how could I have not dived straight head into this gem, I am so glad to have recently re-discovered for the first time (does that makes any sense?)...

Oh, and I have to somehow thank you people, for the fact I was partially prompted back to the Guitar album becuase of that endless discussion on the System(s) of Egdes thread!

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:05 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I am partially trendmonging that much, because of the comment someone made on the drum sound thread (and I respect his opinion) about not liking Chad's sound AND playing, saying he feels he is playing the kind of using the wrong stuff at the wrong moment even though technically skilled (sort of the way I felt before)...

I love the Guitar album, and listened to it again today, for the first time on vinyl (22 years old, pristine)... As you say, there's amazing stuff going on there. Still I can't help but feel that Chad sounded amazing in 1981/82, and from then on somebody made some very poor esthetic decisions that also affected the sound of his drum kit, as other posters have mentioned before.

I'm not that enthused by Wackerman's pedestrian beat in 1984 and 1988 either. Think of a song like Mr. Green Genes 8) from BBYNHIYL. The beat is just too steady and unimaginative for my taste.

But I know that Chad has distanced himself from the electronic sounds that Zappa made him use at the time, so perhaps it was wrong of me to single him out like that, because he is of course a very respectable drummer. And there are other aspects of the mid-eighties bands that are even more annoying than the sound of Chad's drum kit. My general distaste for the antics of those bands might have rubbed off too much on my view of Wackerman, for sure...

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 Post subject: Re: Guitar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:28 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I am partially trendmonging that much, because of the comment someone made on the drum sound thread (and I respect his opinion) about not liking Chad's sound AND playing, saying he feels he is playing the kind of using the wrong stuff at the wrong moment even though technically skilled (sort of the way I felt before)...

I love the Guitar album, and listened to it again today, for the first time on vinyl (22 years old, pristine)... As you say, there's amazing stuff going on there. Still I can't help but feel that Chad sounded amazing in 1981/82, and from then on somebody made some very poor esthetic decisions that also affected the sound of his drum kit, as other posters have mentioned before.

I'm not that enthused by Wackerman's pedestrian beat in 1984 and 1988 either. Think of a song like Mr. Green Genes 8) from BBYNHIYL. The beat is just too steady and unimaginative for my taste.

But I know that Chad has distanced himself from the electronic sounds that Zappa made him use at the time, so perhaps it was wrong of me to single him out like that, because he is of course a very respectable drummer. And there are other aspects of the mid-eighties bands that are even more annoying than the sound of Chad's drum kit. My general distaste for the antics of those bands might have rubbed off too much on my view of Wackerman, for sure...

Dark Clothes, thank you. I think you helped me understand why people hate Chad so much. For me, one of my first Zappa Cd's was YCDTOSA vol. 5, and his performance on disc two is incredible. Just fantastic playing straight through. The way he uses double bass in the midst of a swing jazz beat is so unique, he is incredibly creative, but I can see how in 84 his playing dropped in concert with using shitty proto drum pads. Makes sense. Guitar is such a joy to listen to for me, endlessly creative and engaging. dream time.

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