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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:02 pm 
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Hi,

I'm just listening to Tinsel Town Rebellion and I always get irritated when hearing Tommy Mars making a wrong entry on the theme right in the beginning. I always wondered why Zappa didn't overdub that.

Do you know any other mistakes?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:27 pm 
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The '80s drums/bass on Ruben & The Jets & WOIIFTM. I just listened again to both versions of Ruben yesterday. The original is perfect. What the fuck was he thinking? :?

The worst part about it is that FZ lied to his audience and said the original tapes were too deteriorated to use.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:00 pm 
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haha it's not bad but if you listen to I Don't Wanna Get Drafted on Buffalo the first verse,

Roller skates and disco is a lot of fun
I'm too young and stupid to operate a gun.

I think it's ray he says "Wars are really ugly" but quickly notices he's singint he wrong verse, haha good stuff.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:41 pm 
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On YCDTOSA Vol. 2 during Montana someone (I think Napoleon) says "Dental" instead of "Whipping" so it comes out as "dental post".


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Tom29 wrote:
On YCDTOSA Vol. 2 during Montana someone (I think Napoleon) says "Dental" instead of "Whipping" so it comes out as "dental post".


What's wrong with you?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:03 am 
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Any peep that shouldn't be there, especially on the live records. And on TTR there's plenty.
And Moon's vocals are a mistake on YAWYI, IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:09 am 
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There's a big mistake of Scott Thunes on the Barcellona 88 video, during "The torture never stops", if this counts. You can see him banging is head and the band laughing at him...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:16 am 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
The '80s drums/bass on Ruben & The Jets & WOIIFTM. I just listened again to both versions of Ruben yesterday. The original is perfect. What the fuck was he thinking? :?



Gotta agree with you here...fucking hate the "new" versions.


Quote:
The worst part about it is that FZ lied to his audience and said the original tapes were too deteriorated to use.



I think he meant the original 4 trac tapes were fucked up. The two trac mixdown master which he could have used was fine....if I remember right....and if I'm wrong then...yeah...he may have lied.

.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:31 am 
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One thing that has always irritated me a little is the snare drum on the intro of "Let's Make the Water Turn Black" It's not in time all the way through

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:53 am 
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Rhymin' Man wrote:
Hi,

I'm just listening to Tinsel Town Rebellion and I always get irritated when hearing Tommy Mars making a wrong entry on the theme right in the beginning. I always wondered why Zappa didn't overdub that.

Do you know any other mistakes?


The fuck are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:37 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Rhymin' Man wrote:
Hi,

I'm just listening to Tinsel Town Rebellion and I always get irritated when hearing Tommy Mars making a wrong entry on the theme right in the beginning. I always wondered why Zappa didn't overdub that.

Do you know any other mistakes?


The fuck are you talking about?


I wanna know that, too. What do you mean, Rhymin' Man?

Th.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:11 pm 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
The '80s drums/bass on Ruben & The Jets & WOIIFTM. I just listened again to both versions of Ruben yesterday. The original is perfect. What the fuck was he thinking? :?

The worst part about it is that FZ lied to his audience and said the original tapes were too deteriorated to use.

I believe the 1968 stereo masters were deteriorated beyond repair, which is why FZ digitized the multi track reels, which is why he was able to overdub new tracks. This is probably also why nothing is censored on the first WOIIFTM CD twofer release. I don't believe FZ lied about this.

The restored rhythm tracks issued on the 1995 WOIIFTM CD come from a safety master, not the original master. Perhaps someday the same will be done with CWRATJ.

Ultimately, who gives a fuck anyway?

http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/misc/why.html

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:33 am 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
The worst part about it is that FZ lied to his audience and said the original tapes were too deteriorated to use.

Actually, he didn't lie. No affront to your post intended, but this is a common assumption that I admit has always bugged me a bit. He said that the two-track masters (the left/right-channel-only tapes from which the actual albums were cut, as opposed to the six-track tapes, etc. that the band actually recorded onto during the sessions) were deteriorated, which is not hard to believe, since that happens to all badly stored tape.

Personally, I've always preferred the '80s version of the album. The '60s version is all tinny and squashed up, and the drums are in mono. It sounds like someone's beating Tinker Toys together. I hardly ever listened to Ruben before I got the newer version. He really opened up the mixes and allowed them to breathe. But what I've never understood is why he didn't take the time to remix them from the original tapes and include both versions. They would both have fit onto one disc, I believe (especially considering that "Stuff Up the Cracks" would've only had to have been included once, since that song didn't have any '80s overdubs). I don't think he had any right to be surprised that most of his fans hated the new version. I'm one of the few who love the newer one.

Anyway, as far as the '80s overdubs went, and why Frank didn't lie:

GOLDMINE (1989): There's been some controversy about what you did with We're Only in It for the Money for the Old Masters set and the Rykodisc CD -- the bass and drum tracks that were added to it. Was that the only solution to this tape problem?

ZAPPA: No, bass and drums added was not a solution to the tape problem. The tape problem had to be dealt with with a remix, no matter what. The idea of putting digitally recorded bass and drums onto those tracks was a creative decision that I made because I've always felt that this material in We're Only in It for the Money was good material, but I hated the technical quality of the recording; we were just trapped into that level of of technical quality because that's the way the world was then. I mean, we were virtually using a prototype eight-track machine when that album was done.

...But I've always had a kind of fondness for the tunes that were in there, and I wanted to enhance that album above and beyond the level of 1967 technical development. So that's why it was a creative decision; I decided to put it on.

The problem with people who are collectors and purists and stuff like that is, their regard is not for the music, it is for some imaginary intrinsic value of vinyl and cardboard. People who demand to have the original release of this, that, and the other thing in the original wrapper and all that stuff, that's fetishism. And I think that's fine, if you want to be a fetishist, and have that kind of a hobby. But it is a type of attitude that I don't share when it comes to re-releasing the material.

I think that the material should have a chance to sound as good as you can make it sound, given the technical tools that are at your disposal. So when digital audio came along and you had the possibility of a 95-dB dynamic range, and, in 1967, it might have been maybe 40 dB or something like that, the chance to make those tunes punchier -- and the same thing on Ruben & the Jets -- the chance to have some aspect of 1980s transience and top-end on those tapes was something that I felt was worth the time and the money that I spent redoing it.

I don't have any more plans for taking older material and adding stuff to it -- those are the only two albums that it was done -- and I would describe any criticism of the addition of drums and bass as something less than a tempest in a teapot. If you've got time to worry about that, you really must have too much time on your hands. There's too many other important musical, social and intellectual problems floating around the country today to give a rat's ass as to whether or not I swapped the bass and drums on We're Only in It for the Money.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:38 am 
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Raoul Duke wrote:
Tom29 wrote:
On YCDTOSA Vol. 2 during Montana someone (I think Napoleon) says "Dental" instead of "Whipping" so it comes out as "dental post".


What's wrong with you?


Eh? It's the only mistake I've ever picked up on an album so by default I guess it would be the most irritating. I don't understand your confrontation.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:07 am 
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I kinda want to see what JPF says next, because of my morbid curiosity, but I'll help you out anyway. He says "whipping floss" on purpose because somebody in the audience has just oddly requested the Allman Brothers' song "Whipping Post." Frank was often known to change his lyrics on stage, to get a laugh or comment on the particular evening in some way. Brock was naturally singing the song as he'd rehearsed it, so his backing vocals still went "dental floss." He didn't know Frank was going to improvise new words. It was a funny thing, you see.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:48 pm 
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"Sheik" has some pretty glaring errors. At the end of "Flakes" there's some hideous low-end clicking that apparently is a poorly mixed bass drum overdub.

And has anyone else noticed at the very top of "I Have Been In You" (on "Sheik") Bozzio's drums start out at, like, 10 or 15 bpm too fast (maybe even more)? As the "Na Na Na"s start he slows his ride cymbal way, way down, getting in tempo by around the middle of the second bar. Break those albums out so I know I'm not crazy! Although I find that error more interesting than irritating.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:46 pm 
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Shortly after the "then they worry cause dey's too fat" line in "SEX", there's a huge BOOOOOM on the bass drum which is too bass heavy! It can cause damage to one's speakers when you've cranked up the bass.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Ok, that was a stretch saying Frank lied about the Ruben/Money reissues. He could have made it sound "'60s" but chose not to. It just doesn't sound natural, the bad '80s sound of the rhythm section mixed with '60s guitar/sax/keys. He was wrong in saying fans who hated it were fetishists who cared only about the monetary value of the original.


Bottom line is FZ was in love with shitty '80s technology that everyone thought was so state of the art at the time. The production of the "rock band" songs on the albums starting with Drowning Witch through Mothers Of Prevention shows that. Before anyone starts ripping me, I love the music, it just could have sounded better. Tommy Mars played on the albums and he says the same thing, discussing albums he played on vs. the production/sound on a perfect sounding album like One Size Fits All.
Other guitarists like McLaughlin & Holdsworth were caught up in '80s sounds too. It took them a while to go back to natural sounding guitar/bass/drums.

The person who gets alot of shit for it is Wackerman and the cheesy live drums, but I truly believe if Bozzio or Vinnie were in the band in '84 they would have had the EXACT SAME SOUND.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:04 pm 
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I hear ya, Fred Zappelin. However, I must state that if you compare the drum sound by Colaiuta in 1980 (esp. on Buffalo) and Wackerman's 1981 drum sound, then the former definitely has a more crisp and clear drum sound with lots of high ends. Wackerman's drumming in comparison was sterile thudding. That said, his drums on "So Yuh Don't Like Modern Art" by Banned from Utopia sound excellent. He's definitely loosened up over the years a bit and I like it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:24 pm 
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O.K......if you are going to count the Ruben's re-track as a mistake, then.....

Leaving "Willie the Pimp part 2" off the Fillmore CD was a BIG mistake!!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:03 pm 
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It's all great, mistakes, big whoop. Nobody's perfect.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Chris. wrote:
I kinda want to see what JPF says next, because of my morbid curiosity, but I'll help you out anyway. He says "whipping floss" on purpose because somebody in the audience has just oddly requested the Allman Brothers' song "Whipping Post." Frank was often known to change his lyrics on stage, to get a laugh or comment on the particular evening in some way. Brock was naturally singing the song as he'd rehearsed it, so his backing vocals still went "dental floss." He didn't know Frank was going to improvise new words. It was a funny thing, you see.


All right well I guess my point was that at that moment there are two singers, one sings "dental" at the same time one says "whipping". In fact it almost sounds like he's trying to recover and it comes out as "denting". Am I the only one that hears this? About 2:55 in the song?

I guess I'm risking alienation by the entire message board if I'm wrong here, so I apologize in advance if I am. It's just what it sounds like to me.

jayp, have at it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Tom29 wrote:
Chris. wrote:
I kinda want to see what JPF says next, because of my morbid curiosity, but I'll help you out anyway. He says "whipping floss" on purpose because somebody in the audience has just oddly requested the Allman Brothers' song "Whipping Post." Frank was often known to change his lyrics on stage, to get a laugh or comment on the particular evening in some way. Brock was naturally singing the song as he'd rehearsed it, so his backing vocals still went "dental floss." He didn't know Frank was going to improvise new words. It was a funny thing, you see.


All right well I guess my point was that at that moment there are two singers, one sings "dental" at the same time one says "whipping". In fact it almost sounds like he's trying to recover and it comes out as "denting". Am I the only one that hears this? About 2:55 in the song?

I guess I'm risking alienation by the entire message board if I'm wrong here, so I apologize in advance if I am. It's just what it sounds like to me.

jayp, have at it.



You are correct. It really does sound like "denting floss." It kinda bugs me too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:31 am 
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Why does it bug you? It's not irritating... That version of Montana is hysterical! I love it...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:40 am 
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George Duke is a great musician, but I think he rushed the intro to Eat That Question on the Grand Wazoo. It just sounds run together to me. Bobby Martin's phrasing on the Make A Jazz Noise Here version is much better. The ironic thing is that it sounds like Martin makes a mistake right before the band comes in.

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