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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:58 pm 
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This is one for the experts.

Today by a stroke of luck, I picked up a nice two disc CD version of Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar. Now, I know this CD is pretty hard to find , so I snapped it up quick. But I'm slightly confused as to the date:

It's an EMI version. On the back the dates say "1981 Pumpko Industries Limited. Under Exclusive License to EMI Records Limited".

So I figure the CD is from 1981. Then I read online (here: http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/v ... unpyg.html) that it's from 1987, except my CD doesn't feature the anomaly they mention of swapping Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar and Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar Some More (neither on my cd booklet or on the cd itself is the print swapped, and the tracks are definitely right on the CD).

So I ask you , experts: Where's my CD from (what date)?!! Have the people on that website just gotten confused!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:45 pm 
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I am no expert on that question and I may be wrong but I assume this back date you read is just a copyright date.
From memory, the first CDs should have been made available to the mainstream in 1982, so I don't think this CD could have been pressed and sold in 1981 (and so for any of FZ CDs).
Secondly, I have never found this release date from an official source on the web, however it has to be circa 87/88 as is Specialized Digital Audio Gratification, the related promotional CD.
So it is likely a second edition following the 1986 pressing (Rykodisc RCD 10028/29 and Zappa Records CDDZAP 19).
Just my 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:57 pm 
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As far as I recall, all EMI releases use the year of the original LP release, so I am fairly sure your CD is not from 1981. 1987 seems to be the right year. I have the Ryko 86 version where the "title tracks" from LP 1 and 2 are swapped on the cover (to be in conformity with the Steve Vai transcriptions). It is very weird that the titles are not switched on your copy!! That's a mystery!

Can you make a photo of it?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:47 am 
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Sure:
Attachment:
Photo 28.jpg
Photo 28.jpg [ 98.58 KiB | Viewed 4636 times ]

Attachment:
Photo 30.jpg
Photo 30.jpg [ 70.46 KiB | Viewed 4635 times ]

Attachment:
Photo 31.jpg
Photo 31.jpg [ 66.31 KiB | Viewed 4635 times ]


Not sure if that helps, I'll post the back of the booklet to show you as well in a follow-up post, as you can only attach three items per post.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:48 am 
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Attachment:
Photo 32.jpg
Photo 32.jpg [ 102.86 KiB | Viewed 4635 times ]


There you go. As you can see, the tracks are in the correct order, pretty much everywhere (unless I'm confused and this is the wrong order?). Also notice the barking pumpkin logo on the inlay, I dunno if this is the case on all the CDs? Maybe it's a clue?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:10 am 
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The song order is as on the original LPs. My RYKO CD swaps "Shut...." and "Shut...Some More" on the cover (but not on the CD art). The music as such is the same as on LP (so effectively the two tracks are renamed on the cover, and thereby consistent with the book).

I can't help more on this one. Quite interesting find! Anybody?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:19 am 
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I have the 3 CD compilation released by Ryko in 95 and all seems in order there.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:40 am 
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If you do a side by side audio comparison the tracks on the EMI disc should be slightly faster as there was some report of VSO control differences between EMI and Ryko discs. If I remember correctly this was supposed to be reversed, or corrected if you must on the 3 disc Ryko version. I have the original 2 disc Ryko version only right now.

Congratulations on a very nice CD find.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:40 am 
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one of the uglies wrote:
If you do a side by side audio comparison the tracks on the EMI disc should be slightly faster as there was some report of VSO control differences between EMI and Ryko discs. If I remember correctly this was supposed to be reversed, or corrected if you must on the 3 disc Ryko version. I have the original 2 disc Ryko version only right now.

Congratulations on a very nice CD find.


The Ryko 2-CD had the music at correct speed. I haven't heard other versions but reportedly the original LPs were slightly sped up, as are the other CD editions.

YAWYI was also sped up but in this case I think all CDs are the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:38 am 
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If i remember correct the first two songs seemed slightly high and the third went more close too acurate.
on the Three disc set.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:41 pm 
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On the speed difference between LP and CD, I have previsously posted on Steve Vai's comment on it:

http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15501

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:19 am 
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Nice HJ.
this thread had a little talk about record speed.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7202

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:35 am 
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The mystery remains unsolved then. None the less, I'm over the moon with the CD. Sounds great, and it's convenient having all the albums on only two discs, in the correct order.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:23 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
one of the uglies wrote:
If you do a side by side audio comparison the tracks on the EMI disc should be slightly faster as there was some report of VSO control differences between EMI and Ryko discs. If I remember correctly this was supposed to be reversed, or corrected if you must on the 3 disc Ryko version. I have the original 2 disc Ryko version only right now.

Congratulations on a very nice CD find.


The Ryko 2-CD had the music at correct speed. I haven't heard other versions but reportedly the original LPs were slightly sped up, as are the other CD editions.

YAWYI was also sped up but in this case I think all CDs are the same.
I convinced my self that my 3 disk papersleeve was Fast then Correct,
After all it must be fast :shock:
1. Five-Five-FIVE (02:36)
2. Hog Heaven (02:49)
3. Shut Up & Play Yer Guitar Some More (05:38)
4. While You Were Out (05:59)
5. Treacherous Cretins (05:35)
6. Heavy Duty Judy (04:42)
7. Soup & Old Clothes (07:49)
Taken from IINK (2CD)

Taken from (3CD)
1.(2.31)
2.(2.44)
3.(5.30)
4.(5.53)
5.(5.26)
6.(4.35)
7.(7.40)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:42 am 
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Thanks everyone for clarifying my somewhat incomprehensible post.

Now here's a new comparison to be made. How do the levels compare between the 2 disc EMI and the 3 disc Ryko?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:47 am 
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one of the uglies wrote:
How do the levels compare between the 2 disc EMI and the 3 disc Ryko?

Just out of interest and with no intention to discuss this or to make a rating or to give an opinion, I made a visual examination of the waveforms from Hog Heaven.
Attachment:
HogHeaven1.jpg
HogHeaven1.jpg [ 52.05 KiB | Viewed 4299 times ]

The 2CD-version peaks at -2,7dB. The 3CD-version peaks at 0dB.

Then I normalized the 2CD-version to 0dB:
Attachment:
Hogheaven2.jpg
Hogheaven2.jpg [ 57.36 KiB | Viewed 4299 times ]

Here one can clearly see that the average loudness is still lower in the 2CD-version and this version has more dynamics. So some additional compression/limiting was involved in the making of the 3CD-version.

Th.

P.S.: Without having analysed this, I always preferred listening to the 2CD-version. Now I know why.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:37 pm 
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cleon wrote:
...
5. Treacherous Cretins (05:35)
6. Heavy Duty Judy (04:42)
7. Soup & Old Clothes (07:49)
Taken from IINK (2CD)



Taken from (3CD)
...
5.(5.26)
6.(4.35)
7.(7.40)


Image
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . use other version

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:36 am 
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cleon wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
one of the uglies wrote:
If you do a side by side audio comparison the tracks on the EMI disc should be slightly faster as there was some report of VSO control differences between EMI and Ryko discs. If I remember correctly this was supposed to be reversed, or corrected if you must on the 3 disc Ryko version. I have the original 2 disc Ryko version only right now.

Congratulations on a very nice CD find.


The Ryko 2-CD had the music at correct speed. I haven't heard other versions but reportedly the original LPs were slightly sped up, as are the other CD editions.

YAWYI was also sped up but in this case I think all CDs are the same.
I convinced my self that my 3 disk papersleeve was Fast then Correct,
After all it must be fast :shock:
1. Five-Five-FIVE (02:36)
2. Hog Heaven (02:49)
3. Shut Up & Play Yer Guitar Some More (05:38)
4. While You Were Out (05:59)
5. Treacherous Cretins (05:35)
6. Heavy Duty Judy (04:42)
7. Soup & Old Clothes (07:49)
Taken from IINK (2CD)

Taken from (3CD)
1.(2.31)
2.(2.44)
3.(5.30)
4.(5.53)
5.(5.26)
6.(4.35)
7.(7.40)
Edit :smoke:
The 3CD when in pc
1.(2.36)
2.(2.50)
3.(5.38)
4.(6.00)
5.(5.35)
6.(4.42)
7.(7.54)
Turned out on the Cover of (3CD) they used the LP length per Track
I wonder why LP(Vinyl) lp Crackle add Time :idea: last track is longest on (3CD) which should show up as shortest.The 2(CD) as last Track (7.53) Not (7.49) just when the Times match with (CD3) also Vinyl.when in pc Yo BTW Windows media Player.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:31 pm 
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First version I had was the Ryko 2-CD set. I later bought the 3-CD box and ebayed the 2-fer. I compared the two, and I really didn't hear any "speed" difference. I'm not a guitarist btw. IMO the 3-CD box sounded just as good, if not better, especially some of the segues. Packaging-wise, the 3-CD box is obviously superior too, and it's cool having it on three discs, the way it was meant to be heard.

Kind of wish I held on to the 2-fer set because those old double CD sets can take a beating in the car and whatnot. The fancy box sets never leave my house. I always take the disc out of the box and put it in a slim-case for the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:31 pm 
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I think probably all CD versions have the correct speed, which is kinda logical when you consider that it's the LP mastering that rendered the sped up versions. But I welcome any proof to the contrary, of a sped up SUNPYG CD.

EMI SUNPYG is on average 9-10 seconds longer for 7 minute track than LP, similar to current Ryko.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:22 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
I think probably all CD versions have the correct speed, which is kinda logical when you consider that it's the LP mastering that rendered the sped up versions.


True but on You Are What You Is the CDs are still sped up.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:07 am 
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now i gotta get out my both copies of the LPs (have both the box and the individuals) and compare them to the 3 cd ryko and the original 2 cd ryko

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:37 am 
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from the Patio........................

Although the newer 3-disc set has restored the original "feel" of the triple-LP box, there is something nice about having the whole program condensed onto 2 discs. However if you are going to go hunting for the double set, the chances are you will find them used, so check the pressings.

Before Rykodisc had their own CD manufacturing facilities they used a company called PDO, which is owned by Polygram, to produce their earlier discs. (This information was provided by Rykodisc themselves.)

Beware of the PDO pressings of this title because the opening note of "Five-Five-FIVE" is clipped. The attack of the very first cymbal crash simply is not there! This was a very big disappointment when compared to the newer remaster.

When I checked out a copy of an original 2-disc version that belonged to a friend of mine, I heard the cymbal was clear and definite. I took a closer look at his discs, and they were manufactured by Shape Optimedia. Obviously they corrected this error, or just did it the right way to begin with.


The PDO pressings have a grey label graphic on silver, like a normal early Rykodisc issue with track listings and all, but the silver goes all the way to the hole in the center.

The Shape Optimedia pressings also appear with the same label graphics, but have a clear ring around the center that displays the words "SHAPE OPTIMEDIA, INC" and "MADE IN USA" in raised letters. That is the one to look for when searching for copies of this disc.

the bold part is what intruiges me. now i gotta find the Shape pressing. i have the PDO US Ryko.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:03 pm 
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As mentioned in an earlier post, I have just received the 3rd of the Prestige Coltrane boxed sets ie Fearless Leader, Interplay, and Side Steps.
I got them all from Amazon via different marketplace vendors.
I mention this because the quality of these sets is amazing-solidly put together, with books, quality discs etc
If you are a Coltrane fan and you don't have these, do yourself a favour and get them while you can-you can get most of the music on ultra cheap sets now the 50 year rule is expired, but if you are at all fetishistic about your 'objects' these sets are superb-an object lesson in how to present old music and make it saleable (are you listening ZFT?)

No pics I'm afraid, but this stuff is available if you want it...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:46 pm 
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I am just about to get me both LP versions, with the individual albums AND the ones in a box-set. I hope those sound better than my 3CD version. One of my all time favourites...

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