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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:20 am 
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There are some FZ song lyrics that I understand are personal to FZ himself, and weren't necessarily written for people to know what the lyrics mean, but some songs seem like he was saying (talking) about something specific that an average listener SHOULD be able to catch the meanings, there are a whole bunch that fall into this type, but for now, I want to ask if anyone can shed some light on the lyrics of "The Torture Never Stops" - frinstance - "but a dungeon like a sin, requires not lockin in of everything that's ever been" -is he talking about people in institutions, or people that have lost there sanity, or people that hate themselves? AAARRRGGHH!! I can't wrap my head around it. -Any ideas, or definite knowledge of this I would really, REALLY be thankful for :?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:37 am 
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"but a dungeon like a sin, requires nought but lockin in of everything that's ever been"

that's how I read it, 'requires nothing but locking in of everything'. In order for a dungeon to work, it has to be there and is there to keep bad stuff in it, a 'sin' does the same in culture. If people know something as a sin in culture then they know thereby to avoid it. But to actually make that work, everything has to eventually become a sin, everything eventually becomes a crime, if you accept the premise that sin is 'the real' crime, then everyone deserves to go to the dungeon. I think that the idea of sin works like a dungeon of the mind. Hence, "that's what's the deal we're dealing in" and "The Torture Never Stops". The evil prince needs everyone in the dungeon for him to have any power.

nice to see ya antnyh!!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:02 am 
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Truth is in the eye of the beholder...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:09 am 
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Well last time I jumped in this arena was the "Montana" dust up, my conclusion was that certain understandings of songs could be regional and when that song came out I lived where FZ lived. Due to the resistance I got from other forum members on what I and people I came in contact with in LA in the early '70's thought that song was saying (clearly I will add), he must of wrote it from local LA experience and therefore the understanding of the song would be regional.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:09 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:
"but a dungeon like a sin, requires nought but lockin in of everything that's ever been"

that's how I read it, 'requires nothing but locking in of everything'. In order for a dungeon to work, it has to be there and is there to keep bad stuff in it, a 'sin' does the same in culture. If people know something as a sin in culture then they know thereby to avoid it. But to actually make that work, everything has to eventually become a sin, everything eventually becomes a crime, if you accept the premise that sin is 'the real' crime, then everyone deserves to go to the dungeon. I think that the idea of sin works like a dungeon of the mind. Hence, "that's what's the deal we're dealing in" and "The Torture Never Stops". The evil prince needs everyone in the dungeon for him to have any power.

nice to see ya antnyh!!


Nice interpretation! Fits in w/ the reappearance of the evil prince in Thing-Fish and how the galoot is used by the gubment to poison fagnets and sissy-boys who have cast off sin, being no longer ashamed of their lifestyle and therefore no longer controllable by society and religion.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Darkest Zappa song I've ever heard to date. What a discription of a torture chamber; it makes you feel like your there. I absolutely love the original studio version; its the only one I've heard that really makes me feel apart of the topic...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Rather than me cutting and pasting other peoples suggestions about the meanings behind this song, the thread below deals with that very question at the bottom of page17 and beyond!

http://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic. ... &start=240

Rest of it is a good read too.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:21 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:
"but a dungeon like a sin, requires nought but lockin in of everything that's ever been"

that's how I read it, 'requires nothing but locking in of everything'. In order for a dungeon to work, it has to be there and is there to keep bad stuff in it, a 'sin' does the same in culture. If people know something as a sin in culture then they know thereby to avoid it. But to actually make that work, everything has to eventually become a sin, everything eventually becomes a crime, if you accept the premise that sin is 'the real' crime, then everyone deserves to go to the dungeon. I think that the idea of sin works like a dungeon of the mind. Hence, "that's what's the deal we're dealing in" and "The Torture Never Stops". The evil prince needs everyone in the dungeon for him to have any power.

nice to see ya antnyh!!


I hate to do it again but I was always under the impression that "The Torture Never Stops", had to do with being locked in the studio during recording for an album...that is what I had always heard...I hope to god someone else has heard this???
:?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:44 am 
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Plook wrote:
punknaynowned wrote:
"but a dungeon like a sin, requires nought but lockin in of everything that's ever been"

that's how I read it, 'requires nothing but locking in of everything'. In order for a dungeon to work, it has to be there and is there to keep bad stuff in it, a 'sin' does the same in culture. If people know something as a sin in culture then they know thereby to avoid it. But to actually make that work, everything has to eventually become a sin, everything eventually becomes a crime, if you accept the premise that sin is 'the real' crime, then everyone deserves to go to the dungeon. I think that the idea of sin works like a dungeon of the mind. Hence, "that's what's the deal we're dealing in" and "The Torture Never Stops". The evil prince needs everyone in the dungeon for him to have any power.

nice to see ya antnyh!!


I hate to do it again but I was always under the impression that "The Torture Never Stops", had to do with being locked in the studio during recording for an album...that is what I had always heard...I hope to god someone else has heard this???
:?


Could've been how he got the title, who knows? The great thing about a song like "Torture" is that it allows for multiple interpretations because so much of it is heavily symbolic and image-based. I can dig it you can dig it she can dig it we can dig it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:09 am 
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Here is some little additional info on "Torture" from a NMB-interview:

"… But the whole Evil Prince thing we developed together. We did that before he did Thing-Fish, because he hadn’t even met Ike Willis yet. It wasn’t even conceivable that here was a character that we could incorporate into an idea that he had that talked like Kingfish from the Amos & Andy Show. That was one of Ike’s things, he had this deep voice and he used to mimic Kingfish. And Frank, anytime he saw something like that, he’d go “I can use this over here,” and would structure something and utilise it to suit the new band’s style. The whole idea of the Evil Prince came just by chance. We were doing a tour with Terry Bozzio, Roy Estrada and Andre Lewis. And one of the new songs we started doing was ‘The Torture Never Stops’, about this little cave where this mad scientist was doing all these nasty things. Now by this time, it was easy for me to elaborate on a concept. I would look at the lyrics and I’d know what he was trying to say. And I was spending a lot of time at second-hand clothing stores. So for each song I would get some clothes and develop a character. I would wear these white gymnastic pants with American flag suspenders. With these pants I could put on a jacket and a hat and I’d be a new character. Every jacket was a different colour. So while he was singing, “Flies all green and buzzin’, in his dungeon of despair…” I would turn into this person who was a mad scientist that I found out later was called the Evil Prince. That’s what I was doing on stage; he would have a song and I would develop a character to go with the song. He allowed me to do that because he trusted my ability to ad-lib his creations at that time. …"

From: http://idiotbastard.com/Interviews/NapoleonMurphyBrock.htm

Th.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:52 am 
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zomby truth wrote:
punknaynowned wrote:
"but a dungeon like a sin, requires nought but lockin in of everything that's ever been"

that's how I read it, 'requires nothing but locking in of everything'. In order for a dungeon to work, it has to be there and is there to keep bad stuff in it, a 'sin' does the same in culture. If people know something as a sin in culture then they know thereby to avoid it. But to actually make that work, everything has to eventually become a sin, everything eventually becomes a crime, if you accept the premise that sin is 'the real' crime, then everyone deserves to go to the dungeon. I think that the idea of sin works like a dungeon of the mind. Hence, "that's what's the deal we're dealing in" and "The Torture Never Stops". The evil prince needs everyone in the dungeon for him to have any power.

nice to see ya antnyh!!


Nice interpretation! Fits in w/ the reappearance of the evil prince in Thing-Fish and how the galoot is used by the gubment to poison fagnets and sissy-boys who have cast off sin, being no longer ashamed of their lifestyle and therefore no longer controllable by society and religion.


! Also, fits directly with the recurring theme of Joe's Garage. Not just stated explicitly in the notes.
"Music can get you pretty fucked up."

Also, this idea of 'sin' is promulgated to Jeff by the angel in 200 Motels and related by Mark and Howard and maybe Ringo, the journalist and yes, even the cardboard people of Centreville. But that's more a contextual thing, I admit.
Where the Continuity is so big,

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:50 am 
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Well, I started a thread and then went out of state for a week, so I haven't been contributing to it, but thank you for helping me to see things from some different perspectives. Yeah, I realize that Frank enjoyed having a type of secret language that he crafted the meaning of his lyrics with, and that confining them to an explanation of their meaning limits their true power of exciting my imagination, but certain songs have just made me crazy trying to understand the underlying concepts intended by the complex nature of his symbolism.
I had a friend in N.Y. that swore that the dental floss in Montana referred to cocaine, but that seemed really far fetched to me.
I know I shouldn't, but I gotta - are there folks out there who can put into context the lyrics of Baby Snakes?(the song from S.Y.) It seems to be about people that work in television or movies to me, but I really feel like I'm guessing. Got any ideas about it?

p.s. thanks punknaynowned.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:46 pm 
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I'm starting to get the feeling that this thread is going to die a slow painful death!! :cry: :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: meanings of montana
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:51 pm 
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antnyh wrote:
I had a friend in N.Y. that swore that the dental floss in Montana referred to cocaine, but that seemed really far fetched to me.

ozzy osbourne wrote:
“I told him I thought it was about cocaine dealing. he said it was about a dental floss tycoon. I felt like a dick.”

ozzy

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:53 pm 
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So, Trying To Grow A Chin. Is it about puberty? I feel so dumb for not knowing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:01 pm 
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"CANARSI" a part of New York which you can enter anytime, but you may never leave!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:40 am 
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I always believed that the 'baby snakes' were studio cables...

Quilt


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 Post subject: Do You Like Your Job?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:14 am 
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Quilt wrote:
I always believed that the 'baby snakes' were studio cables...

Quilt


The operative keyword in this topic is the plurality Meanings.
In today's world where a powerful female may be your boss
she could say you can kiss my cellulite free ass for all that I have done
for your career but a Baby Snake in 1978 was in a different position.

Frequently there are layers that leave the imagination to ponder the obvious
and how the dialog may conceptually fit into a whole different plan and non plan.
Getting back to the quilt analogy there is just so much more going on
than your basic fabric pattern that comes from some mill.

So you are thinking of studio cables,
well I am sure studio cables can be connected to the basic theme
of what a Baby Snake could use on their job or a BDSM adventure,
maybe in a closet somewhere while they are still punched in on that union clock,
but digging deeper into the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers
since 1916 the behavior of the members of that organization would lead one
to believe that the code that they live by has layers that one needs to take
a deeper look at.

So as we look into one of those pink layers
I can see where a guy may just want to whip it out
and give her a drink. In no way do I condone this behavior,
especially if a woman is looked at as this is a job requirement
but taking a look from Wet Pink perspective this is an extremly unbfortunate
behavior of the industry.

Yes they are on their knees all synchronized wearing the organization banner proud,
as they wipe the salty substance remnants from their upper lip,
which is still done by an internal synchronized code
they know they did the act toasting in the name of SYMPTE.
For some it may be difficult at first but once they are in synch I think
they tell themselves that each load goes down easy.


Daddy's Iron Sausage, Baby Snakes....They go together.
Do it, do it, d'ya wanna-wanna do it, do it?
Do you like my new Car?
Do it, do it, d'ya wanna-wanna do it, do it?

Do You Like Your Job?

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:20 am 
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Thanks Trendy!
I didn't realise that there was so much to it. I suppose I thought that a 'baby snake' might be a somewhat phallic refererence, but the rest of it has gone over my head.
I really should start listening to the words more carefully. I like the tune though. It's a definite 'feelgood' song.
I still don't like Mudd Club. Even if the words provided the key to life itself I still wouldn't like it.

Quilt


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:58 am 
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Quilt wrote:
Thanks Trendy!
I didn't realise that there was so much to it. I suppose I thought that a 'baby snake' might be a somewhat phallic refererence, but the rest of it has gone over my head.
I really should start listening to the words more carefully. I like the tune though. It's a definite 'feelgood' song.
I still don't like Mudd Club. Even if the words provided the key to life itself I still wouldn't like it.

Quilt


While the video quality is poor unloosen your belt
and try this one on for size.

Real denizens of the area on auto destruct.
Ride the pole. Seek the path to the sudsy yellow nozzle
Of their foaming nocturnal Parametric digital whole-wheat inter-faith
Geo-thermal terpsichorean ejectamenta. Sylvester Stallone in Leather.

Social Standings of these sort of places change but
turning the clock back to 1978-80 it was fun and happening.
Especially on May 8, 1980.

mudd club german tv 1980 {pt1}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENS3aHagn04


ZAPPA WIKI JAWAKA
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Mudd_Club
The Mudd Club was a 'loft' niteclub, located in the TriBeCa, at 77 White Street in downtown Manhattan. Opened in October 1978 by publisher Steve Mass, art curator Diego Cortez and singer Anya Philips the club quickly became a major fixture in the city's underground music and counterculture scene.

With gender-neutral bathrooms, a rotating gallery on the fourth floor and live performances showcasing punk rock, new wave, and experimental music The Mudd Club acquired a chic, often elitist reputation and was frequented by many of Manhattan's up-and-coming cult celebrities- such as artists Basquiat and Haring and musicians like Talking Heads' David Byrne and Adrian Belew. It's popularity increased in proportion to the decline of uptown's Studio 54, a club also referred to in the above song.

On a number of occasions FZ took on the role of 'Fraudulent DJ', and air his favorite musical selections on radio stations, or in discotheques. He referred to one such nocturnal DJ residency at The Mudd Club, on a similar DJ appearance on BBC Radio 1's Star Special, as he introduced his 18th selection;

"When I was in New York I went to this, er, club, called The Mudd Club, and I was a disc jockey there for a night and I brought in a bunch of records and tried them out on the clientele at this particular establishment. One toon that got their buttocks pumping up and down in quite a frenzied manner was this next number, erm, by The Plastics. Its called “Robot”.

[FZ playlist, Track 18: "Robot" - by The Plastics, was then played]

That was, er, “Robot” by The Plastics, a Japanese ensemble. And, er, in order to truly appreciate the nuances involved in this particular production you have to imagine it being played over a really loud disco system in a room that's concrete with no decorations and, er, a guy about 6-foot-5, with a blue mohawk and a black leather jacket, dancing to it, and it suddenly comes alive in your imagination".

Zappa performed at the club on the 8th May 1980



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE PLASTICS - Robot ['79 UK Version]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVMq1oynAtM
PLASTICS - ROBOT - Japanese New Wave / Punk / Pop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKRnOBb9Inw

In my opinion this one below is the finest example
of FZ embracing that social culture.
As FZ had suggested I got my copy at Bleecker Bobs
Image
Gerry + The Holograms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9u5rfyTIoo


http://www.myspace.com/bleeckerbobs

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:23 pm 
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My god, Trendmonger, methinks you have a bit of teacher in you. But really, amazing insights!
Since I'm on this thread, I want to bring up "Wind Up Workin' in A Gas Station" I've heard it's about higher education, maybe that people waste opportunities with it, or by not utilizing it well, maybe how higher education in the U.S. is too much like a cash business - -? And the lyrics... "show me your thumb and you're really dumb.. " can any light be shed (can ya help me out??) on what to me is a musically amazing and lyrically confusing song?? :|

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:18 pm 
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antnyh wrote:
My god, Trendmonger, methinks you have a bit of teacher in you. But really, amazing insights!
Since I'm on this thread, I want to bring up "Wind Up Workin' in A Gas Station" I've heard it's about higher education, maybe that people waste opportunities with it, or by not utilizing it well, maybe how higher education in the U.S. is too much like a cash business - -? And the lyrics... "show me your thumb and you're really dumb.. " can any light be shed (can ya help me out??) on what to me is a musically amazing and lyrically confusing song?? :|


Back in mid 80s sometime about 1985 or so I was over Eric Buxton's family home in Long Island.
We were VHS duping all these old FZ TV appearances. Paris 1980, We Don't Mess Arround
and the likes but the lack of quality made much of what is on youtube look like Blue Ray.
Some good old time Zappa fans Paul Varda & Rob Samler was in attendance.

I had asked Eric about the Manny The Camper line in this song. Eric pulled out this paper back book of sorts that
had tons of FZ lyrics in it. I had never nor since seen this book and question any whatsoever authenticity
but it had the lyrics which stated Manny The Camper Wants TO Buy Some White Gas.
So moving the clock forward to 1989 in The Interview of the Century that Eric Buxton , Den Simms & Rom Samler did at FZ home here is a very small excerpt

From Society Pages #1 Interview with Frank Zappa pt. 1 12/22/89:
Frank Zappa: Hello?! Hello?! Hello?!
Den Simms: Here we go. (To Rob & Eric) So what was the thing you had said about "Manny the Camper" on the way here?
Frank Zappa: He wants to buy some white. Manny the camper wants to buy some white. Ya wait long enough, all the songs come true.
Eric Buxton: Who was the original Manny the camper? I know he wanted white gas, but who was he?
Frank Zappa: Just anybody named Manny who had an RV, y'know.
Eric Buxton: And here he is.
Frank Zappa: Yeah, I'm sure he has an RV too. It's probably bulletproof. One more thing is maybe he'll return to Managua. You could go unnoticed in such a place (laughter).


ARF also has some insight by some fans analyzing lots of the lyrics.
http://www.arf.ru/Notes/Zoot/gass.html

While it is obvious the intellect of an average Trailer Park family is not too high
a white collar guy or gal can certainly drug his life away or have a personal or economic meltdown into the trailer park life.
Now after looking at all that analogy, much of it which is very insightful,
one aspect is seemingly overlooked is how any individual who achieves a higher education
is not guaranteed high paying white collar employment from the day out of school until they reach 65
where they might plan to retire to the white picket fence mowing and watering the lawn
or playing some golf with the boys on Mon, Wed & Friday. I believe Bakersfield, CA
allows you to sleep in your car on the street as long as you wake up by 7:00 AM.
This is what happens when single middle aged people loose their white collar jobs
and can no longer afford the rent . The Green Hotel indeed. Green Chevy maybe.

Even if one possibility had a good white collar job
or potential for one at some point life could become dummed down by a variety of inner
failures and become the next trailer park criminal. Maybe drug problems or just a lack of a spine
to stick with certain stress positions. Sometimes people just want to run away from it all.
Not every potato headed Bobby starts out living the trailer park life.
Near life death experience. The forks in the road could lead anyone even those
who achieved a so called higher education to be the next criminal.

Also what is the state of the economy. There seemed to be a big recession
when I assume the lyrics were written for this song. Even the higher education
does not guarantee you a job you need to be sharp or whatever it takes to maintain stability
when job opportunities are scarce.

So he works in a gas station lives his life in a RV.
Much like Eric Buxton is probably living today for as he last told me several years ago
the White Gas way of life is where his dreams led. He was living in a truck in the parking lot at his job
and his next phase of early retirement was to just get on a motorcycle an live anywhere coast to coast.
No solid roots so to speak. A form of escape from traditional family life or just surviving.

Now why would someone need their RV bullet proofed.
Could he be selling drugs. Could he have just cashed in the white collar life
because he figured out he could be his own boss pumping gas and selling drugs.
\How long does it take the manicured hands and digits to get dirty or possibly even
losing a thumb. Just how dumb are you if your thumbs are not only dirty but you don't
have em'. Maybe FZ was forward looking into Greatful Dead spinner surfis.

Maybe I am reaching. I don't think white collar criminal thumbs are definitive
but certainly deserve a look at. Show me your thumb...............................
FZs views of the dumb stupidity of the youth culture moving forward into white collar society
had some thought of their usage of drugs. But then again a really stupid drug free person may smoke in bed and put the house on fire.

Mom what's for dinner and when will my laundry be ready?
Better yet I'll move to the streets of Managua.
No one from the fraternity will recognize me there.
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The Return Of The Son Of Theta Nu Epsilon

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:47 am 
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antnyh wrote:
"Wind Up Workin' in A Gas Station"


Did Zappa invent Punk?
The Dumbing Down......
Zappa certainly shows he was at the forefront of Punk with this track.

Those that allready have the YCFOSA Chicago #2 show from 10/18/08
should be quite familiar with ZPZs performances of the 76' arrangement of this song
and the added afro cuban conga backing adds to the overall vibrant live landscape.

The vocal interplay between Scheila Gonzalez and Ray White is spectacular.
All vocals are actually quit amazing and even our beloved Vaultmeister Joe Travers
does a real fine job with the vocals Bozzio had.

ZPZs WUWIAGS are the definitive live performances of this song.

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:28 pm 
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antnyh wrote:
My god, Trendmonger, methinks you have a bit of teacher in you. But really, amazing insights!
Since I'm on this thread, I want to bring up "Wind Up Workin' in A Gas Station" I've heard it's about higher education, maybe that people waste opportunities with it, or by not utilizing it well, maybe how higher education in the U.S. is too much like a cash business - -? And the lyrics... "show me your thumb and you're really dumb.. " can any light be shed (can ya help me out??) on what to me is a musically amazing and lyrically confusing song?? :|


I always thought it was about higher ed, or pseudo-education. Frank was insistent that post secondary education was a waste. I don't agree with him, but that seems to be his point (and during the mid-seventies the job market was slack, so he might have figured that a lot of college grads were gonna pump gas).

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If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little bit ugly on the side)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:49 pm 
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tweezers wrote:
antnyh wrote:
My god, Trendmonger, methinks you have a bit of teacher in you. But really, amazing insights!
Since I'm on this thread, I want to bring up "Wind Up Workin' in A Gas Station" I've heard it's about higher education, maybe that people waste opportunities with it, or by not utilizing it well, maybe how higher education in the U.S. is too much like a cash business - -? And the lyrics... "show me your thumb and you're really dumb.. " can any light be shed (can ya help me out??) on what to me is a musically amazing and lyrically confusing song?? :|


I always thought it was about higher ed, or pseudo-education. Frank was insistent that post secondary education was a waste. I don't agree with him, but that seems to be his point (and during the mid-seventies the job market was slack, so he might have figured that a lot of college grads were gonna pump gas).


We'll here is a modern higher education angle.
A cousin's step Daughter graduated from a NY State College
a few years back where she had achieved summa cum laude in a Psychology Major.
Upon graduation she informs me that it is absolutely impossible to get a job with a 4 year dilpoma
in the field of her major.

I know it is getting tougher to get good jobs with a 4 year degree but I basically laughed at her.
I said I can make a phone call to a director I know very well that works for a social service organization.
I had leased an apartment I owned to her organization and I could see if she has anything.
So I make the call and guess what the director has an immediate need for an assistant and
would interview her and most likely hire her on the spot.
Guess what the 22 year old with the summa cum laude does not even show up for the interview.

She went on in her educational studies spending quite a bit more money
and got a job in nursing but back then I should have sung WIWIAGS to her.

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April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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