Zappa.com

Stagger on my friend, when you get a chance if you haven't already...Myself and others have made the point that Zappas "Speak Music" is in fact a derivative of rap and that songs like "The Slime" and "Montana" are early versions of what has later evolved into modern rap. All rap music is is an ethnic version of story telling that has been set to music and produced to the umptenth degree.

Things exist before somebody comes up with a commercial label and/or definition for them. Sometimes the definition and/or label is not adequate.

Let's not forget "rap sheet" and "bum rap".

I agree with KU above. Music Theory is what comes after the fact of music composition. Great composers forged new music, they didn't write according to any theory.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Just to be contrary, what about many of the mid-twentieth century 'greats' (Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Boulez to name a few Zappa-friendly faces).
Some of that music was definitely composed strictly according to theory and rules. Were they 'great' composers? I like some of that stuff for the atmosphere and ambience it creates. but I do like real melody/harmony better.

They wrote their own rules, they were trying to find ways of avoiding tonality and they developed that search into a set of rules as opposed to writing music to a traditionally accepted set of rules. Four part harmony is a good example of my point about theory, the rules for which grew out of an attempt to understand the previous practice of composers which was then used to try and proscribe that practice.

Anyway, I agree with you up to a point about Schoenberg et al, I think they went too far and got way too hung about about the philosophy of writing music. They painted themselves into a corner. Boulez was a particularly nutty example of this with total serialisation, although he did loosen up a bit later in life.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

there you go again with another stupid and totally unnecessary comment, plook.
you want to provoke, but all you're doing is generalizing.*

not liking rap doesn't have to mean that you're racist. I'm sure that when it comes to the zappa forum members, it's all about liking or not liking certain types of music, ok?
I don't like rap, but, I also have a really hard time listening to opera, as well. does that mean I don't like italians?

and, I don't think frank zappa was the original rapper. 'trouble every day' is not a rap song.
I wonder how many of the original rappers would say that they got the influence to do rap after listening to frank zappa at all.

*ok, there are probably white supremacist assholes out there who hate rap music because they're racists, but that's another matter altogether...

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"bit of nostalgia for the old folks."

Sorry I said that now, but again I wonder if what most people are calling Rap is the hard core Gangste' Rap or are they including the more catchy Top 40 tunes also that incorporate rap (I am sure hard core Rappers would be offended by my saying that...lol). Good example in ealy 90's rap TLC "Waterfalls" good song very successfull, good lyrics with a meaning, is it Rap? I guess, is it what everyone dislikes so much? I doubt it. To dislike that song it would be as a girl top 40 band, the element of rap in that song is very small, yet that was considered a rap song.

The only reason I brought the Race thing in is the area I currently live in has a strong stench of racism still hanging over it and it is not uncommon to hear the 'N' word used in public outside of mixed company. I am sure KU and KK would back me up on that...I have also heard Rap called "N"er music and that is why it should not be played, actually more times than is comfortable.

The crazy thing about this is otherwise these people are the nicest, most generouse, and helpful people you can hope to meet, the racism scares are deep ones.

Interesting thread. I certainly always felt that Trouble Every Day was a rap song - musically (the continuous riff is similar to looped music), lyrical rat-a-tat delivery and even the lyrical subject. It is a complete accident though. I've never heard of anyone citing him as an influence on rap; and why should they on the basis of one song?

Dubism is sort of right with the reggae roots - 45's in the late 60's on would have the song on one side and instro version on the other for DJ's to chat over. This goes back further to the days of ska.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BG2Ctm-9B8

I haven't heard the CD Dark Clothes posted up, but he mentions talking blues. There's a guy from Atlanta called Bill Sheffield who used to play with Muddy Waters and a couple of times I've seen him he's finished off by doing a rap which he says is an old blues tradition. There are a few clips of him on the toob, but none doing this little ditty.

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Carry Go Bring Come

Bacon Fat could be easily adapted into a rap 'song'...

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

Maybe Chicken Fat could be made into a rap song. Seems like The Last Poets were some of the original rapers.

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Confusion will be my epitaph

I've always thought Dumb All Over is a funky weird sort of sprechestemme/hip-hop-rap type of deal. I would love to hear some bigtime hip-hop artist cover it...