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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:38 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
haha, yeah Plook, sorry to seem so contradictory-- I meant the last thing to be a retraction of my first statement. I kind of stand by it, though--even though Zappa explicitly attempted rap made 2 or 3 times in his career, I don't think of them as particularly good (the rapping, anyway), and on one of those tracks he doesn't even do the rap himself.

thinking a little more, though, you could certainly make a link between The Last Poets 'Jazzoetry' and Zappa's 'Dangerous Kitchen'--I'd just be wary of saying Zappa ever really did rap or hip hop. (He has been a huge influence on it, though, mostly because Zappa DID do Funk--and really, really well. Anyone here know J Dilla's album, 'Donuts'? Zappa makes an appearance on it, and the album is a masterpiece. The Lumpy Gravy of hip hop, for sure)

any heeeeeey, Mr. Green Genes! How're things going? Just popped in for awhile--I still go through periods of intense Zappa love, I just try to stagger it out a little more now that I get laid.



Stagger on my friend, when you get a chance if you haven't already...Myself and others have made the point that Zappas "Speak Music" is in fact a derivative of rap and that songs like "The Slime" and "Montana" are early versions of what has later evolved into modern rap. All rap music is is an ethnic version of story telling that has been set to music and produced to the umptenth degree.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
WikiPedia:

The roots of hip hop are found in African-American music and ultimately African music. The griots of West Africa are a group of traveling singers and poets who are part of an oral tradition dating back hundreds of years. Their vocal style is similar to that of rappers.The African-American traditions of signifyin', the dozens, and jazz poetry are all descended from the griots. In addition, musical 'comedy' acts such as Rudy Ray Moore and Blowfly are considered by some to be the forefathers of rap.

Within New York City, griot-like performances of spoken-word poetry and music by artists such as The Last Poets, Gil Scott-Heron and Jalal Mansur Nuriddin had a significant impact on the post-civil rights era culture of the 1960s and 1970s.

Hip hop arose during the 1970s when block parties became increasingly popular in New York City, particularly in the Bronx, where African American and Puerto Rican influences combined. Block parties incorporated DJs who played popular genres of music, especially funk and soul music. Due to the positive reception, DJs began isolating the percussion breaks of popular songs. This technique was then common in Jamaican dub music and had spread to New York City via the substantial Jamaican immigrant community.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music

No mention of Zappa there.

The first time I heard the term rap was in a review by Jan Arne Handorff of Lou Reed's Live Take No Prisoners, probably in 1978. Handorff explained for his Norwegian readers this new phenomeneon, which he found relevant as a context for Reed's long talks between and during the songs of that album.

The word itself has been known in English for centuries with a number of meanings, such as 'to hit' and 'to say'.

Things exist before somebody comes up with a commercial label and/or definition for them. Sometimes the definition and/or label is not adequate.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Let's not forget "rap sheet" and "bum rap".

I agree with KU above. Music Theory is what comes after the fact of music composition. Great composers forged new music, they didn't write according to any theory.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:27 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Let's not forget "rap sheet" and "bum rap".

I agree with KU above. Music Theory is what comes after the fact of music composition. Great composers forged new music, they didn't write according to any theory.



Just to be contrary, what about many of the mid-twentieth century 'greats' (Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Boulez to name a few Zappa-friendly faces).
Some of that music was definitely composed strictly according to theory and rules. Were they 'great' composers? I like some of that stuff for the atmosphere and ambience it creates. but I do like real melody/harmony better.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Quilt wrote:
polydigm wrote:
I agree with KU above. Music Theory is what comes after the fact of music composition. Great composers forged new music, they didn't write according to any theory.

Just to be contrary, what about many of the mid-twentieth century 'greats' (Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Boulez to name a few Zappa-friendly faces).
Some of that music was definitely composed strictly according to theory and rules. Were they 'great' composers? I like some of that stuff for the atmosphere and ambience it creates. but I do like real melody/harmony better.

They wrote their own rules, they were trying to find ways of avoiding tonality and they developed that search into a set of rules as opposed to writing music to a traditionally accepted set of rules. Four part harmony is a good example of my point about theory, the rules for which grew out of an attempt to understand the previous practice of composers which was then used to try and proscribe that practice.

Anyway, I agree with you up to a point about Schoenberg et al, I think they went too far and got way too hung about about the philosophy of writing music. They painted themselves into a corner. Boulez was a particularly nutty example of this with total serialisation, although he did loosen up a bit later in life.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Those who choose to outright deny that ("Frank never rapped") or just hurl insults ("Same shit you’re stupid"), either have a strong dislike (maybe even hatred) of rap (which in itself may have an element of hidden racism.
there you go again with another stupid and totally unnecessary comment, plook.
you want to provoke, but all you're doing is generalizing.*

not liking rap doesn't have to mean that you're racist. I'm sure that when it comes to the zappa forum members, it's all about liking or not liking certain types of music, ok?
I don't like rap, but, I also have a really hard time listening to opera, as well. does that mean I don't like italians?

and, I don't think frank zappa was the original rapper. 'trouble every day' is not a rap song.
I wonder how many of the original rappers would say that they got the influence to do rap after listening to frank zappa at all.

*ok, there are probably white supremacist assholes out there who hate rap music because they're racists, but that's another matter altogether...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:56 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Plook wrote:
Those who choose to outright deny that ("Frank never rapped") or just hurl insults ("Same shit you’re stupid"), either have a strong dislike (maybe even hatred) of rap (which in itself may have an element of hidden racism.
there you go again with another stupid and totally unnecessary comment, plook.
you want to provoke, but all you're doing is generalizing.*

not liking rap doesn't have to mean that you're racist. I'm sure that when it comes to the zappa forum members, it's all about liking or not liking certain types of music, ok?
I don't like rap, but, I also have a really hard time listening to opera, as well. does that mean I don't like italians?

and, I don't think frank zappa was the original rapper. 'trouble every day' is not a rap song.
I wonder how many of the original rappers would say that they got the influence to do rap after listening to frank zappa at all.

*ok, there are probably white supremacist assholes out there who hate rap music because they're racists, but that's another matter altogether...


Sorry I said that now, but again I wonder if what most people are calling Rap is the hard core Gangste' Rap or are they including the more catchy Top 40 tunes also that incorporate rap (I am sure hard core Rappers would be offended by my saying that...lol). Good example in ealy 90's rap TLC "Waterfalls" good song very successfull, good lyrics with a meaning, is it Rap? I guess, is it what everyone dislikes so much? I doubt it. To dislike that song it would be as a girl top 40 band, the element of rap in that song is very small, yet that was considered a rap song.

The only reason I brought the Race thing in is the area I currently live in has a strong stench of racism still hanging over it and it is not uncommon to hear the 'N' word used in public outside of mixed company. I am sure KU and KK would back me up on that...I have also heard Rap called "N"er music and that is why it should not be played, actually more times than is comfortable.

The crazy thing about this is otherwise these people are the nicest, most generouse, and helpful people you can hope to meet, the racism scares are deep ones.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Interesting thread. I certainly always felt that Trouble Every Day was a rap song - musically (the continuous riff is similar to looped music), lyrical rat-a-tat delivery and even the lyrical subject. It is a complete accident though. I've never heard of anyone citing him as an influence on rap; and why should they on the basis of one song?

Dubism is sort of right with the reggae roots - 45's in the late 60's on would have the song on one side and instro version on the other for DJ's to chat over. This goes back further to the days of ska.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BG2Ctm-9B8

I haven't heard the CD Dark Clothes posted up, but he mentions talking blues. There's a guy from Atlanta called Bill Sheffield who used to play with Muddy Waters and a couple of times I've seen him he's finished off by doing a rap which he says is an old blues tradition. There are a few clips of him on the toob, but none doing this little ditty.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Bacon Fat could be easily adapted into a rap 'song'...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Maybe Chicken Fat could be made into a rap song. Seems like The Last Poets were some of the original rapers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:44 pm 
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I've always thought Dumb All Over is a funky weird sort of sprechestemme/hip-hop-rap type of deal. I would love to hear some bigtime hip-hop artist cover it...


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