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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:23 pm 
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BillyDaMt wrote:
But that is why I said I wish the set was culled from earlier in the tour when the big jam was during Wild Love. :mrgreen:

Sadly, this and Y'Mama wouldn't fit onto the 3-disc set, as it's already packed to capacity -- ohoooops, not that again... :P


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:48 am 
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madcow1515 wrote:
Jaminbenb wrote:
you can certainly drop the price a tad as a result! I LIKE the format of the past few concert releases, simple packaging moderately priced, but a BALLOON and other junk in a box? Give me a freaking break! WE WANT THE MUSIC, not the chatchkees!!! $28 for Buffalo was fair, and it's only a two disc show...this one is three discs...OK, so you charge another $8-$10 to make it a "fair" price and be done with it...$48? Your KILLING me! $20 bucks more for a CD a balloon, and some packaging?!?!?! Maybe next time, I'll just wait and find it somewhere to download illegally...I'd rather not because I'd LIKE to see more releases, but HOLD OFF ON THE JUNK and just give us the music at a FAIR PRICE!


While I would love to see these CDs sold cheaper, I think higher prices are just the nature of selling a product that has fairly limited appeal. Putting an album together, even of vault material, isn't a cheap undertaking, and they aren't going to sell a million copies. As a result, they have to charge a bit more than your neighborhood Best Buy. My copy is still in the mail, so I can't comment of the packaging yet.


Bull-fucking-shit! Manufacturing an album, in itself, is NOT expensive - if so, budget labels like Object Enterprises and Prism could never exist, and they sell - or certainly used to sell CDs - at £1.99 a pop, and their stuff (jazz, ska, early 20th century nostalgia) doesn't sell millions either.

ZFT, like all labels, keep their prices high (and,in their case, keep running times low, and track selections off-the-mark) so that they can rip us off, and maximise their income from what is basically an immoral industry anyway - selling the myth that a person can have an original thought and claim ownership of it


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:13 am 
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cyst-array wrote:

Bull-fucking-shit! Manufacturing an album, in itself, is NOT expensive - if so, budget labels like Object Enterprises and Prism could never exist, and they sell - or certainly used to sell CDs - at £1.99 a pop, and their stuff (jazz, ska, early 20th century nostalgia) doesn't sell millions either.

ZFT, like all labels, keep their prices high (and,in their case, keep running times low, and track selections off-the-mark) so that they can rip us off, and maximise their income from what is basically an immoral industry anyway - selling the myth that a person can have an original thought and claim ownership of it


QFT

The concert sounds incredible to me I just wish that I didn't have to break the bank every time another release comes along be it a 1/2/3/Whatever Disc Set.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:43 am 
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cyst-array wrote:
Bull-fucking-shit! Manufacturing an album, in itself, is NOT expensive - if so, budget labels like Object Enterprises and Prism could never exist, and they sell - or certainly used to sell CDs - at £1.99 a pop, and their stuff (jazz, ska, early 20th century nostalgia) doesn't sell millions either.


I'm not familiar with Object Enterprises or Prism, but I have to imagine that what they're selling is public domain and already produced, mastered, etc. Taking archival tapes from the vault and having them mastered to digital costs money. Engineers like to get paid, you know.

cyst-array wrote:
selling the myth that a person can have an original thought and claim ownership of it

Oh Jesus. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:45 am 
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madcow1515 wrote:
cyst-array wrote:
Bull-fucking-shit! Manufacturing an album, in itself, is NOT expensive - if so, budget labels like Object Enterprises and Prism could never exist, and they sell - or certainly used to sell CDs - at £1.99 a pop, and their stuff (jazz, ska, early 20th century nostalgia) doesn't sell millions either.


I'm not familiar with Object Enterprises or Prism, but I have to imagine that what they're selling is public domain and already produced, mastered, etc. Taking archival tapes from the vault and having them mastered to digital costs money. Engineers like to get paid, you know.

cyst-array wrote:
selling the myth that a person can have an original thought and claim ownership of it

Oh Jesus. :roll:

Don't forget all the time spent digging through the vault to find the masters, and actually the time it takes to properly mix a release. That is much more expensive and time consuming than simply mastering a soundboard from a show, which many bands do for live release series. And ya, that all intellectual property is theft bullshit. See if Zappa could have financed a band and released any music in your communistic artistict fantasy realm.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:34 am 
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madcow1515 wrote:
cyst-array wrote:
Bull-fucking-shit! Manufacturing an album, in itself, is NOT expensive - if so, budget labels like Object Enterprises and Prism could never exist, and they sell - or certainly used to sell CDs - at £1.99 a pop, and their stuff (jazz, ska, early 20th century nostalgia) doesn't sell millions either.


I'm not familiar with Object Enterprises or Prism, but I have to imagine that what they're selling is public domain and already produced, mastered, etc. Taking archival tapes from the vault and having them mastered to digital costs money. Engineers like to get paid, you know.


What's the going rate for a "Modern Mainstream" CD ? Certainly not as much as a release from the Vault.

Yes I fully expect to pay more $$$ for a FZ release compared to a "Mainstream" release but the difference in price is outrageous in some cases (I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Andydevine1967 wrote:
What's the going rate for a "Modern Mainstream" CD ? Certainly not as much as a release from the Vault.

Yes I fully expect to pay more $$$ for a FZ release compared to a "Mainstream" release but the difference in price is outrageous in some cases (I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

Mainstream CDs are released by major labels who can afford the overhead involved in releasing a CD, and major label albums ideally sell enough copies to cover the production costs as well as make a profit. I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand. As a result, charging $12 a disc probably won't pay the bills.

Andydevine1967 wrote:
(I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

I don't think these Vaulternative releases are really aimed at new fans. They seem more aimed at the hardcore fans who already have everything else; hence the premium price tag. Heck, these things aren't even in stores. There are 60+ Ryko CDs for new fans to pick from that are quite affordable these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:08 pm 
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madcow1515 wrote:
Andydevine1967 wrote:
What's the going rate for a "Modern Mainstream" CD ? Certainly not as much as a release from the Vault.

Yes I fully expect to pay more $$$ for a FZ release compared to a "Mainstream" release but the difference in price is outrageous in some cases (I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

Mainstream CDs are released by major labels who can afford the overhead involved in releasing a CD, and major label albums ideally sell enough copies to cover the production costs as well as make a profit. I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand. As a result, charging $12 a disc probably won't pay the bills.

Andydevine1967 wrote:
(I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

I don't think these Vaulternative releases are really aimed at new fans. They seem more aimed at the hardcore fans who already have everything else; hence the premium price tag. Heck, these things aren't even in stores. There are 60+ Ryko CDs for new fans to pick from that are quite affordable these days.



$12. a disc, as in for the whole PACKAGE or per CD within the package (as in selling the whole package for $36.00?)

Anyway...my issue ISN'T with not making a profit, my issue is making a profit by including bullshit that we DON'T need! A stupid balloon, a toilet seat cover and extra packaging!!! The fact that people are making these cardboard cases with everything integrated, vs. the standard plastic jewel case is probably even more expensive in the long run! You can't tell me that a front and back cover sheet, and a small booklet, shoved into a 3-disc plastic jewel case is more expensive than a small cardboard box, with extensive printing and assembly, with the above mentioned items included, AND two cardboard sleeves, one of which has three plastic cd holding receptacles that when they eventually break, you're screwed!

I'd be just as happy if they released it in the same cardboard folders that the past few live releases came in, and paid $36.00 and NOT needed to pay upwards of $50.00!

One could easily find it on some of the websites that house illegal recordings....I've seen it! But I'd prefer to contribute to the ZFT so they continue to release things of this nature (and give me the right to bitch about it!)


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:19 pm 
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If memory serves, Lumpy Money cost more, and no balloon or toilet seat cover there.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:52 pm 
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FOWL wrote:
Wen D. Carlos wrote:
BillyDaMt wrote:
I kinda wish this was culled from earlier in the tour so that we'd get a choice Wild Love Jam or even a Yo Mama.


Only two performances of Wild Love>Yo Mama were recorded and both were chopped up/out for SY and could not be used. Otherwise I'm sure they would have fit them in there somehow.


Pretty sure that is completely false. They played Wild Love with the massive jam during the Baby Snakes concerts. Pretty sure there is a multitrack recording of that.


We're talking about "Hammersmith Odeon". Not a deluxe edition of "Baby Snakes". :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:17 pm 
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madcow1515 wrote:
Andydevine1967 wrote:
What's the going rate for a "Modern Mainstream" CD ? Certainly not as much as a release from the Vault.

Yes I fully expect to pay more $$$ for a FZ release compared to a "Mainstream" release but the difference in price is outrageous in some cases (I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

Mainstream CDs are released by major labels who can afford the overhead involved in releasing a CD, and major label albums ideally sell enough copies to cover the production costs as well as make a profit. I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand. As a result, charging $12 a disc probably won't pay the bills.
$12 Per Disc on A "Mainstream" Release who are you kidding Maybe 8-9 bucks each so ZFT $12-$13 just might be able to "pay the bills" with a little profit on the side

madcow1515 wrote:
Andydevine1967 wrote:
(I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

I don't think these Vaulternative releases are really aimed at new fans. They seem more aimed at the hardcore fans who already have everything else; hence the premium price tag. Heck, these things aren't even in stores. There are 60+ Ryko CDs for new fans to pick from that are quite affordable these days.
Sure but what I was saying is that if the "Vault" releases were slightly better priced then maybe they could sell more copies to the "Newer" fans.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Andydevine1967 wrote:
Yes I fully expect to pay more $$$ for a FZ release compared to a "Mainstream" release but the difference in price is outrageous in some cases (I'll still buy all that I can but GZ/ZFT might find it easier getting "New" fans if the ZFT discs were a little more reasonably priced)

Secret weapons are expensive :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:01 am 
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madcow1515 wrote:
I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand.


Does anybody have a clue how many copies they make of these ZFT releases?

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:11 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
madcow1515 wrote:
I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand.


Does anybody have a clue how many copies they make of these ZFT releases?

Course not. You will have to wait for GZ next Q&A session, then she might reply this is none of our business.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:34 am 
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Maroual wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
madcow1515 wrote:
I have no idea how many copies Hammersmith Odeon is going to sell, but I'd be amazed if it's more than a few thousand.


Does anybody have a clue how many copies they make of these ZFT releases?

Course not. You will have to wait for GZ next Q&A session, then she might reply this is none of our business.


The information will be out of her control if the manufacturing details are published on WikiJawakaLeaks :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:31 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
Does anybody have a clue how many copies they make of these ZFT releases?


This here forum has just over sixteen thousand members, not all of them are ordering and I'm sure there's a bunch of illegal download weasels and where else would a person hear about the releases. They can't be selling all that many.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:41 am 
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Man , I sure wish the ZFT would quit sending Luigi & the wise guys out to twist our arms to MAKE us buy this stuff. :roll:

Sheesh , what ever happened to freedom of choice ?? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:27 pm 
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No ZFT,DZpZ= No new shit man.On this case my cup is half full,like,fer sure,fer sure.Wiki can no leaki from The Vault. BTW, I'm listening to HO in reverse order as post this,it's still a great variation on a basic theme.What a 4night stand!That band was tight. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:12 pm 
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garry wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
Does anybody have a clue how many copies they make of these ZFT releases?


This here forum has just over sixteen thousand members, not all of them are ordering and I'm sure there's a bunch of illegal download weasels and where else would a person hear about the releases. They can't be selling all that many.


Yep.

I greatly doubt the sales of each posthumous release have surpassed 10,000 copies (with the possible exception being Lather)...

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:27 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:

I greatly doubt the sales of each posthumous release have surpassed 10,000 copies (with the possible exception being Lather)...


Possibly Just keep in mind that LATHER was issued by Ryko and wasn't as "Overpriced" as the things being released on Zappa Records/Vaulternative Records (again I have no clue about how much each release costs to produce and I have a good idea that the ZFT isn't making a fortune selling the "New" stuff (but then again if they were just a little more "affordable" they might sell more copies ))


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Picked it up at the show last night and have been playing it since...shrugs his shoulders and says hmmmm,nothing to hear here folks,nothing special. Glad i bought it,packaging is cheez and not good cheez,nice write up from Peter Wolf but for $50 I expect better,but why give gold when they are lining up for silver. FZ sounds a tad cranky with the audience but could be worse I suppose. Will stash it away with the other so/so cd's that have permeated the latest releases.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Andydevine1967 wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:

I greatly doubt the sales of each posthumous release have surpassed 10,000 copies (with the possible exception being Lather)...


Possibly Just keep in mind that LATHER was issued by Ryko and wasn't as "Overpriced" as the things being released on Zappa Records/Vaulternative Records (again I have no clue about how much each release costs to produce and I have a good idea that the ZFT isn't making a fortune selling the "New" stuff (but then again if they were just a little more "affordable" they might sell more copies ))


Läther was sold in normal retail outlets as well...The distribution has been limited so far to the ZFT and I'm guessing that the "casual" fan will need to KNOW where to get it...but if it's priced as it is, I'm sure the casual fan will say NO FREAKING WAY! The carrots the keep dangling in front of us are getting more expensive as they come out, when there is no need for it. I'd be more interested in paying moderate prices more often than EXPENSIVE prices twice every year! Look at King Crimson's "ColleKctor's Club" from several years back.....they kept prices down, and sold a bunch of those releases...I'm willing to bet that their distribution was less than Zappa's, but they released something every few months, and it was never much more than $15 - $20 per release.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Jaminbenb wrote:
[...Look at King Crimson's "ColleKctor's Club" from several years back.....they kept prices down, and sold a bunch of those releases...I'm willing to bet that their distribution was less than Zappa's, but they released something every few months, and it was never much more than $15 - $20 per release.

Every 2 weeks, $9.95 per download ($12.95 for flac.).
Last month they put up a 14 concert series for $46.00 ($60 for flac.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:10 pm 
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just plain doug wrote:
Jaminbenb wrote:
[...Look at King Crimson's "ColleKctor's Club" from several years back.....they kept prices down, and sold a bunch of those releases...I'm willing to bet that their distribution was less than Zappa's, but they released something every few months, and it was never much more than $15 - $20 per release.

Every 2 weeks, $9.95 per download ($12.95 for flac.).
Last month they put up a 14 concert series for $46.00 ($60 for flac.)


That's awesome. I still like how the ZFT gives theirs a little more of a personal touch but somewhere in the middle of those 2 philosophies would be pretty sweet.... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:25 pm 
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Still waiting on mine. I should get it Saturday. I'm sure it will be a fun release. But, part of me asks:

"Do we really need yet another version of 'Dancin' Fool', Tryin' To Grow a Chin', 'I Have Been In You', 'Broken Hearts...', 'Bobby Brown', 'Dinah-Moe Humm', 'Camarillo Brillo', and 'Muffin Man'?"

I mean I'm barely familiar with what kind of craziness the vault has to offer, but even I'm somewhat aware of things like 'Twenty-One', 'Twinkle-Tits', or even 'Village of the Sun (1978)'... or you know, unreleased songs. But, hell at this point, I'd even pay good money to hear alternative arrangements (or even prototypes) of songs ('Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?', Black Page with Vinnie, etc...).

I don't know about shelling out $50+ for 1/3 interesting content. I mean, I did it this time on good faith (I'm rarely disappointed with a new release). But, there's gotta be some different stuff out there just waiting to come out, ya know?

Maybe I just shouldn't talk before I hear the whole thing. I don't know.


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