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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:15 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
Zut_boF wrote:
The size of our ears make a difference on how we individualy hear the sound. Frank has big ears thats why his recording are less bassy because big ears like that catch more bass. i have small african ears so i am hearing less bass ,so i need more. I always find Zappa sound to high in frequency.


Funny, I always pegged you for a medium-sized Haitian-eared fella.... :mrgreen:
lol

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:18 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Zut_boF wrote:
The size of our ears make a difference on how we individualy hear the sound. Frank has big ears thats why his recording are less bassy because big ears like that catch more bass. i have small african ears so i am hearing less bass ,so i need more. I always find Zappa sound to high in frequency.

Wouldn't head phones squash that theory? After the flap,it's all the same crap inside. :idea: :mrgreen:
yeah with head phones we have it directly inside.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Hammersmith Odeon has arrived in OZ!! Why is that instrumental track at the end of disc 2 called Little House I Used To Live In?

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:54 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Hammersmith Odeon has arrived in OZ!! Why is that instrumental track at the end of disc 2 called Little House I Used To Live In?


I would think that you of all people would hear bits of the Fillmore Little House in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:37 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Hammersmith Odeon has arrived in OZ!! Why is that instrumental track at the end of disc 2 called Little House I Used To Live In?

Is that a serious question? Haven't you ever heard Burnt Weeny Sandwich? It's an arrangement of the piano introduction from LHIUTLI. This piano introduction is to be found in the Frank Zappa Songbook Vol. 1.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:25 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
You're so right, Calvin, but I still enjoy my music more than many certified oh-dear-oh-no-o-philes... Your namesake, Schenkel, doesn't have a fine arts degree, either. Do you like his stuff?

No worries. I've got a system that's about 20 years old, with mismatched speakers, It sounds good enough for me. I've never had the money to really invest in that kind of thing, anyway.


Give me that old time sound system, give me that old time sound system, it's good enough for me - it should be good enough for you :mrgreen:

Moonlight on Vermont!

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:45 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
can you honestly argue that most Sun Ra records have healthier waveforms than HO or Buffalo?

Healthier waveforms - a clear yes, sometimes even too healthy 8) since it wasn't that easy to get a wavesignal clip on analog eq, back in the old days --

Dark Clothes wrote:
Or that the free jazz canon in general is better recorded than the average Vaulternative release?

What is that?

For Menage /Domage/Imag Diseas etc. -- a BIG Yes -

For QuaudioLumpyPhilly and the likes -- a clear no

For Buff /TF/ OH -- thank god there's no juvenile enough mind known in history that would treat a 1967 Noah Howard recording the Filipetti way (Big Pannnngggg)

calvin2hikers wrote:
madcow1515 wrote:
Bah, unless you're wanting to sink $5K into new equipment, vintage is the way to go. My amp is almost 50 years old, and I love it.

I have speaker wire that was found in the tomb of Kefren (AKA, The Sphinx). It's the best speaker wire ever.
Imagine that as a Cal Schenkel drawing! Yow ... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:52 am 
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They should have included some black napkins in the package. That would have been funny!


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:17 am 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
can you honestly argue that most Sun Ra records have healthier waveforms than HO or Buffalo?

Healthier waveforms - a clear yes, sometimes even too healthy 8) since it wasn't that easy to get a wavesignal clip on analog eq, back in the old days --


My copy of the My Brother The Wind is too erratic to interpret in any kind graph, with some giant vinyl pops going straight across the edges... It's about as reliable a reproduction as the handpainted cover. I still quite like it, though 8)

You're wrong if you believe clipping is exclusive to digital media. Just look at an overloaded optical soundtrack on a too loudly mixed 16mm film. The clipping will be obvious to the naked eye...

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:41 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
You're wrong if you believe clipping is exclusive to digital media. Just look at an overloaded optical soundtrack on a too loudly mixed 16mm film. The clipping will be obvious to the naked eye...

I knew he was recording to wire spindles and yodelling on sirius, but I believe he never did a sound recording exclusively on 16mm optical soundtrack?!? No question you can drive anything into the RED ZONE, but no-one sane enough to hold a matchstick straight would do it deliberately and on purpose on their spiffy little professional 2-track, that is, unless somebody told them they'd have to be more punk! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:55 am 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
… you can drive anything into the RED ZONE …

One Size Fits All sounds very compact and surely has a large amount of tape saturation, where the levels have probably been driven as hot as possible during tracking with the meters often running into the RED ZONE. But that is friendly clipping, because there was life beyond 0dB in the days of analogue tape recording.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:02 am 
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Thinman wrote:
friendly clipping

My sentiments exactly, Th., by driving into the RED ZONE I ment letting something distort to a degree not perceived as balanced sound by trained ears, referring to Dark Clothes' 16mm analogy --


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:46 am 
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Quote:
Overload conditions and dynamic range
There are some differences in the behaviour of analog and digital systems when high level signals are present, where there is the possibility that such signals could push the system into overload. With high level signals, analog magnetic tape approaches saturation, and high frequency response drops in proportion to low frequency response. While undesirable, the audible effect of this can be reasonably unobjectionable (Elsea 1996). In contrast, digital PCM recorders show non-benign behaviour in overload (Dunn 2003:65); samples that exceed the peak quantization level are simply truncated, clipping the waveform squarely, which introduces distortion in the form of large quantities of higher-frequency harmonics. The 'softness' of analog tape clipping allows a usable dynamic range that can exceed that of some PCM digital recorders. (PCM, or pulse code modulation, is the coding scheme used in Compact Disc, DAT, PC sound cards, and many studio recording systems.) …

Overload conditions and dynamic range
In principle, PCM digital systems have the lowest level of nonlinear distortion at full signal amplitude. The opposite is usually true of analog systems, where distortion tends to increase at high signal levels. A study by Manson (1980) considered the requirements of a digital audio system for high quality broadcasting. It concluded that a 16 bit system would be sufficient, but noted the small reserve the system provided in ordinary operating conditions. For this reason, it was suggested that a fast-acting signal limiter or 'soft clipper' be used to prevent the system from becoming overloaded (Manson 1980:8).
With many recordings, high level distortions at signal peaks may be audibly masked by the original signal, thus large amounts of distortion may be acceptable at peak signal levels. The difference between analog and digital systems is the form of high-level signal error. Some early analog-to-digital converters displayed non-benign behaviour when in overload, where the overloading signals were 'wrapped' from positive to negative full-scale. Modern converter designs based on sigma-delta modulation may become unstable in overload conditions. It is usually a design goal of digital systems to limit high-level signals to prevent overload (Dunn 2003:65). To prevent overload, a modern digital system may compress input signals so that digital full-scale cannot be reached (Jones et al. 2003:4).
The dynamic range of digital audio systems can exceed that of analog audio systems. Typically, a 16 bit analog-to-digital converter may have a dynamic range of between 90 to 95 dB (Metzler 2005:132), whereas the signal-to-noise ratio (roughly the equivalent of dynamic range, noting the absence of quantization noise but presence of tape hiss) of a professional reel-to-reel 1/4 inch tape recorder would be between 60 and 70 dB at the recorder's rated output (Metzler 2005:111).
The benefits of using digital recorders with greater than 16 bit accuracy can be applied to the 16 bits of audio CD. Stuart (n.d.:3) stresses that with the correct dither, the resolution of a digital system is infinite, and that it is possible, for example, to resolve sounds at -110 dB (below digital full-scale) in a well-designed 16 bit channel. …

(Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_recording_vs._digital_recording)



BTW: Yesterday I had the chance to listen to a new vinyl edition of a 1960(!) German Democratic Republic(!) Beethoven recording, because a friend wanted a CD transfer for his listening convenience. The wide dynamic range and clearness of this recording was unbelieveable and jawdropping, despite the limited dynamic range of the vinyl medium. With digital recording today such a dynamic range could be even wider, but no one seems to make use of those possibilties in the music business. Recorded music could be so beautiful if people would take chances and really make use of the benefits of modern technology.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:25 am 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
You're wrong if you believe clipping is exclusive to digital media. Just look at an overloaded optical soundtrack on a too loudly mixed 16mm film. The clipping will be obvious to the naked eye...

I knew he was recording to wire spindles and yodelling on sirius, but I believe he never did a sound recording exclusively on 16mm optical soundtrack?!?


I'm not talking about Zappa specifically here, but it is possible that his early movie soundtracks (The World's Greatest Sinner and Run Home Slow) contain some examples of clipping in the loud parts. An optical soundtrack has smaller dynamic range than magnetic tape, and it's totally intolerant to overload. It will quite physically clip off the soundwave at the edge of the track, causing a similar kind of distortion to that found on Filipetti's less fortunate mixes. You can come to the laboratory with a totally healthy mix on magnetic tape (16mm or 35mm) and receive a married print of the film with clipping all over the optical soundtrack.

I agree that Muffin Man on HO is somewhat damaged in the mix, but I still think it holds true that Hammersmith Odeon has more sound fidelity than the vast majority of recorded sound artifacts throughout the history of music. Bad sound has been the rule, and that's why we're so amazed and pleasantly surprised when we find an old recording that sounds exceptionally good. It sticks out from the pile - it's exceptional.

My main point, however, is that unless you're a very squareminded audiophile, you should have some tolerance for these shortcomings when the music is worthwhile.

It's already been said that one man's waste bin is another man's treasure trove. If anyone (Thinman f'rinstance) thinks Pound For A Brown or King Kong on HO is waste, so be it. I just think they're wonderful examples of Frank Zappa as a composer, band leader and live performer, and enjoy listening to them.

I think Zappa was often more radical as a live performer than as a recording artist, and that's why I'm so grateful for the good live recordings issued by Vaulternative.

If I could get them in even better mixes, with less compression and no clipping, I would of course be even happier. But as I'm not a staunch awdearofile anyway, I can live with releases at this level, and tweak my system to make them sound even more pleasing for my taste.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:45 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
… But as I'm not a staunch awdearofile anyway, …

Neither am I, but it is good to have some interesting aspects to discuss. And some of those posthumous releases had put me on a severe test as a non-stop Zappa consumer since 1975.

Though:
Dark Clothes wrote:
I can live with releases at this level, …

Me, too. I buy them. I don't buy much else these days. But the qualities of the music, performances and production is (and should be) discussible. Because not everything that glitters is gold. And not everything what Frank did was top notch. But maybe the Vaulternative releases are intended to document just this.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
I agree that Muffin Man on HO is somewhat damaged in the mix, but I still think it holds true that Hammersmith Odeon has more sound fidelity than the vast majority of recorded sound artifacts throughout the history of music. Bad sound has been the rule, and that's why we're so amazed and pleasantly surprised when we find an old recording that sounds exceptionally good. It sticks out from the pile - it's exceptional.

My main point, however, is that unless you're a very squareminded audiophile, you should have some tolerance for these shortcomings when the music is worthwhile.

I also like the record. I just showed the waveforms for reference. It is generally quite good sounding, but a bit muffled. It has good tracks on it, but I must say that of the newer relases I like Philly more, as it contains more "unknown and new" stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:21 am 
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HJ wrote:
I also like the record. I just showed the waveforms for reference.


That's a good thing, HJ, and interesting. In the case of Muffin Man, your graph confirms the distortion that I heard when I listened to the track on headphones. Of course I don't mean to say "fuck waveforms" per se - only that the ears and mind of the listener must be the judge in the end. At least that's how I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:28 am 
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HJ wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
I agree that Muffin Man on HO is somewhat damaged in the mix, but I still think it holds true that Hammersmith Odeon has more sound fidelity than the vast majority of recorded sound artifacts throughout the history of music. Bad sound has been the rule, and that's why we're so amazed and pleasantly surprised when we find an old recording that sounds exceptionally good. It sticks out from the pile - it's exceptional.

My main point, however, is that unless you're a very squareminded audiophile, you should have some tolerance for these shortcomings when the music is worthwhile.

I also like the record. I just showed the waveforms for reference. It is generally quite good sounding, but a bit muffled. It has good tracks on it, but I must say that of the newer relases I like Philly more, as it contains more "unknown and new" stuff.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:45 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Hammersmith Odeon has arrived in OZ!! Why is that instrumental track at the end of disc 2 called Little House I Used To Live In?

calvin2hikers wrote:
I would think that you of all people would hear bits of the Fillmore Little House in there.

It's hardly comparable with the Fillmore arrangement.

Thinman wrote:
Is that a serious question?

You're on to me.

Thinman wrote:
Haven't you ever heard Burnt Weeny Sandwich? It's an arrangement of the piano introduction from LHIUTLI. This piano introduction is to be found in the Frank Zappa Songbook Vol. 1.

Burnt Weeny Sandwich is one of my favourite FZ albums. I haven't pursued the connection in detail but the intro to Little House on Burnt Weeny is what I was assuming.

But that's my point, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there both on Burnt Weenie and Fillmore that isn't even touched by the Sheik Yerbouti band. When I first saw Little House mentioned on the Berlin boot of this band I got really excited until I heard it. Not because I think it's bad, not at all, but I have a particular affinity with the Fillmore arrangement. Obviously Zappa went off it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:42 am 
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polydigm wrote:
… But that's my point, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there both on Burnt Weenie and Fillmore that isn't even touched by the Sheik Yerbouti band. When I first saw Little House mentioned on the Berlin boot of this band I got really excited until I heard it. Not because I think it's bad, not at all, but I have a particular affinity with the Fillmore arrangement. Obviously Zappa went off it.

I always thought the "arrangement" played by the SY-band was just an improvised "arrangement" of the piano intro that Tommy Mars had developed for himself and Frank insisted that he memorized it that way.

The original LHIUTLI is a collage of several separate pieces and performances (Return Of The Hunchback Duke, Aybe Sea, etc.). And only the intro is the real one and only piece titled Little House I Used To Live In.

As always, I could be wrong.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:30 am 
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I guess all polydigm wanted to hear is Bozzio doing 11 against 12 -- [I hear sometimes, when he's really heading into a smooth and romantic mood, he tends to refer to himself as polyrithm, or digmy vistalite]
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:05 pm 
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This album is excellent 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:41 am 
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I'm listening to Hammersmith for the first time(got it for Christmas,)and I can't believe how great it sounds!
I can't seem to turn it up loud enough! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:41 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
But that's my point, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there both on Burnt Weenie and Fillmore that isn't even touched by the Sheik Yerbouti band. When I first saw Little House mentioned on the Berlin boot of this band I got really excited until I heard it. Not because I think it's bad, not at all, but I have a particular affinity with the Fillmore arrangement. Obviously Zappa went off it.


The Burnt Weeny "Little House" is itself a medley of various late-60's pieces. The Flo & Eddie band pefromed the section known as "The Duke" and announced it as such at shows. But for some reason, when Fillmore came out, Frank decided to use the title "Little House" so people would identify it with the "Burnt Weeny" track. Then in 1978, Frank arranged the piano intro of the "Burnt Weeny" track for a full band. As you unfortunately discovered, Frank used the title "Little House" to describe this section too. You can actually hear the confusion in the crowd when Frank announces "Little House" on 1978 boots, but what follows isn't Side One of the Fillmore album.


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 Post subject: Re: Hammersmith Odeon
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:05 am 
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Rolling Stone has a full City Of Tiny Lites for listening:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/exclusive-audio-classic-frank-zappa-live-track-20101221
If it is the case that this version is identical to the one from the birthday bundle (has to be confirmed), for which Craig Parker Adams did the mix and John Polito did the mastering, I would recommend that these guys should do the job for future Vaulternative releases.

Th.

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