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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:47 am 
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Thinman wrote:
Speaking about Carnegie …

Despite my very positive first impression uttered somewhere here on this forum, I just realized that I haven't listened to it more than two times, and that was months ago. I probably have no intention to listen to it again in the near future.

This time it is because of the quality of the performances. I rather choose Fillmore, JABFLA, YCDTOSA, Playground Psychotics when I want to listen to good live performances by the Flo&Eddie era lineups.

Seems, below the line, that most Vaulternative releases are not for me.

Th.


I hear you but personally feel that it's fantastic to be able to hear new stuff from this period. You may like those other versions better but isn't it great to have *more* choices? (You don't have to agree, you're still welcome to your opinion.) :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:54 pm 
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the band itself sounds really good on both shows, but i did notice howard's voice was a little off the first show, so i can see how you'd prefer the other flo and eddie albums.

i do like this release a lot though. all the jam's and solo's are so good!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Review from allmusic.com of Chicago IV at Carnegie Hall, recorded in the spring of '71 with curious comment about the... acoustics! :)

by Lindsay Planer

After issuing three consecutive studio double LPs, Chicago topped themselves with this four-album live box set. As the title suggests, At Carnegie Hall, Vols. 1-4 (Chicago IV) (1971) finds the band at the venerable New York City venue during a five-night stand (April 5-April 10) in the spring of 1971. The septet -- which includes the respective talents of Terry Kath (lead guitar/vocals), Robert Lamm (keyboards/vocals), Peter Cetera (bass/vocals), Danny Seraphine (drums), Lee Loughnane (trumpet/vocals), James Pankow (trombone), and Walter Parazaider (woodwinds/vocals) -- were at their unquestionable peak of initial popularity. Their previous three double LPs continued extended runs on the pop album chart and likewise spawned a number of hit singles. So by the time the group hit the Big Apple for these shows, they were among the hottest things happening. Chicago's set list is wholly representative of the material from Chicago Transit Authority (1969), Chicago II (1970), and Chicago III (1971) and includes several extended multi-song medleys from each. The band winds its way through muscular versions of the epic "Ballet for a Girl in Buchannon," "Travel Suite," as well as lengthy renderings of deeper cuts such as "South California Purples," "Fancy Colours," and the ten-minute-plus opening "In the Country." One of the set's most notable highlights is the politically charged "For Richard and His Friends." The lengthy and well-jammed-out cut is both groovy and propulsive. However, the acoustics at Carnegie Hall are quite frankly not (and really never have been) properly suited for heavily amplified music. While the percussion and electric guitars are clearly audible, the woodwind and brass section come off sounding extremely thin and devoid of any real timbre. This is unfortunate, as a primary component of the band is the contrasting textures between the two. Enthusiasts seeking a much more sonically accurate portrait should by whatever means necessary locate the Live in Japan 1972 two-CD set -- which also includes tracks from Chicago's fifth effort.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:32 am 
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Great post i agree,I also love CTA, I find a similar problem with the It's a Beautiful Day live at Carnegie hall cd.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:43 am 
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Miles Davis recorded a live album there in 1974, Dark Magus, and members of his group also said Carnegie Hall was not a good venue for an electric band.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:36 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Great post i agree,I also love CTA, I find a similar problem with the It's a Beautiful Day live at Carnegie hall cd.


I do remember reading about how the members of CTA (especially the horn players) absolutely *hated* the way they sound on IV. That's the nucleus, as I understand, for Live in Japan being released. In my opinion, that release is missing the magic and replacing it with superior sound. Kind of annoying though when they change the lyrics on at least 2 of the tunes to be in Japanese though.

And I didn't even know that 'It's A Beautiful Day' had a live release from there as well - I'll have to check it out, thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:39 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Great post i agree,I also love CTA, I find a similar problem with the It's a Beautiful Day live at Carnegie hall cd.


I do remember reading about how the members of CTA (especially the horn players) absolutely *hated* the way they sound on IV. That's the nucleus, as I understand, for Live in Japan being released. In my opinion, that release is missing the magic and replacing it with superior sound. Kind of annoying though when they change the lyrics on at least 2 of the tunes to be in Japanese though.

And I didn't even know that 'It's A Beautiful Day' had a live release from there as well - I'll have to check it out, thanks!

Saw them when White Bird came out at The Fillmore West,is David Laflame on this release.Is he still the violenist on this release for IABD? I remember they had some personel changes,just wondering.....
8)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:57 am 
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Yes Laflame is with the band guitar is changed from original.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:02 am 
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You can buy this cd on amazon of Laflame web site

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Thanx BV. He played solo at The Palms (near here) a couple years back.I thought it was the same guy only older.Just like me,he got older too! Funny how that happens. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
Speaking about Carnegie …

Despite my very positive first impression uttered somewhere here on this forum, I just realized that I haven't listened to it more than two times, and that was months ago. I probably have no intention to listen to it again in the near future.

This time it is because of the quality of the performances. I rather choose Fillmore, JABFLA, YCDTOSA, Playground Psychotics when I want to listen to good live performances by the Flo&Eddie era lineups.


I'm a big fan of the Stonybrook tape recorded a few days later, and I was hoping for a performance that was equally as tight. For example, they absolutely nail the Tibetan Memory Trick at Stonybrook, but at Carnegie Hall it comes off rather loose with some sync issues towards the end. Also, Howard references "Guenivere" in the "Suite Judy Blue Eyes" bit at Stonybrook, but at Carnegie it's a less funny "Deja Vu". These things kind of bummed me out. It's still a fun release though. We're spoiled.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Found this

Page 49, Circus Magazine, January, 1972.

Zappa's Two-Tune Concert.

Only a Frank Zappa audience could outdo a Grateful Dead crowd when it comes to looking underground. The kids looked about sixteen, very stoned and dressed to undermine the whole concept of formality. The concert was in Carnegie Hall, probably the most respectable auditorium left in New York City since the Fillmore closed. The Persuasions opened the evening. They are five black guys with an a cappella (no instruments, just unaccompanied vocal harmonies), Apollo-type act. Sort of a weird ombination with Zappa. They did oldies like "Speedo" plus some new things, and laced it all together with a running patter. There was no break in the act - they sailed straight through. The six Mothers filed on stage amidst much screaming and enthusiasm. The two Turtles, Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan, who have joined Zappa were up in front with him. They started tuning and before a minute was up, Zappa made an announcement to be patient, they were having trouble with the Moog synthesizer, Mark Volman, who seems to have lost a little weight, took this time to munch on some nuts from a big can he had brought on stage, occasionally tossing a few into the audience. Howie was given a present by a front-row boy. It turned out to be a Barbie doll with wires sticking out of her head, her entire body painted. The kid said it was an inspiration created on an acid trip. Zappa was wearing knit pants and a short- sleeved, purple T-shirt, Mark dressed in his usual white T-shirt and jeans, but removed his T-shirt after the first song (which ran about twenty minutes), revealing all his expansive loveliness. Zappa announced that they usually started with an up-tempo thing but "on this auspicious occasion of the desecration of Carnegie Hall" they would deviate and start with thier German song, sung half in German and half in English. After they completed it, they seemed in no hurry to go on. Frank lit a cigarette, drank some beer, tuned a bit, then announced the next song would be ""Billy the Mountain," which would include singing, dancing and rapping. "Billy the Mountain" lasted half an hour and that was the show. Two songs. The audience screamed and stamped for an encore. Finally Zappa appeared onstage and revealed the fact that by union house rules they couldn't do an encore because it would cost an extra $600.00 in overtime. This brought boos from the audience. "But," said Zappa, "The Mothers will pay the $600.00 out of thier own pockets and do an encore for you." And they did.

and this, on the opposite page

Yoko Gets Her Label On The Mothers?
The Lennon's Snatching candy from the Mother's
'Twas sometime after The Mothers At The Fillmore (Warner Bros.) album had climbed to a respectable position on the charts, then fallen off again and Warner Bros, were clamoring for another Mothers LP Zappa and the gang were none to anxious to drudge in the studio for weeks when there was already a nine record set completed and on its way to the public. So they came up with an idea. Why not make the next LP out of the Fillmore session when John and Yoko had jumped onstage and jammed? Everyone agreed that the session was dynamite, including the Lennon's business manager Allen Klein. In fact Allen felt it was too good to come out as a Mother,s LP. According to a disgruntled Mother, Allen and or the Lennon's are now issuing the tape under the name of the Plastic Ono Band.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Freaking Allen Klein. :roll:

About Carnegie,I seem to listen to Philly`76 and the YCDTOSA volumes ect. more than say HO or CH.They are nice for a change,so you have to make the heart grow fonder by not playing them for awhile.Like a whole week or more.Imvho. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:22 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Freaking Allen Klein. :roll:



FZ's version was that he made a deal with Lennon that they could both release their own mixes of that set.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:40 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Freaking Allen Klein. :roll:



FZ's version was that he made a deal with Lennon that they could both release their own mixes of that set.

That's how I thought it went down,but you throw Allen Klein into the mix and all bets are off! Then JL's shot and Yoyo's in charge.If you've seen the clips from that concert,it's obvious she doesn't know what's what.But you can see John looking to FZ for a que,and watching FZ's hand signals/conducting the band. I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.To make it a CD I think you'd have to include at least some of FZ & The Mothers set,before and after John & Yoko joined them onstage.At least for continuity.A whole concert film would be better! Ah,se la vie.BTW,Is Allen Klein still around and managing bands? He was kinda old back in`71. :|

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:31 pm 
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I love the King Kong, but the BTM is just another bigger one, when you know all the jokes...I do like having the Sofa.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:17 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.To make it a CD I think you'd have to include at least some of FZ & The Mothers set,before and after John & Yoko joined them onstage.At least for continuity.A whole concert film would be better! Ah,se la vie.BTW,Is Allen Klein still around and managing bands? He was kinda old back in`71. :|


Playground Psychotics includes most (if not all) of the John & Yoko stuff in a more faithful-to-true-life mix than the remix included in Lennon's Sometime in New York City.

also Allen Klein died in 2009.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:19 pm 
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myourself wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.To make it a CD I think you'd have to include at least some of FZ & The Mothers set,before and after John & Yoko joined them onstage.At least for continuity.A whole concert film would be better! Ah,se la vie.BTW,Is Allen Klein still around and managing bands? He was kinda old back in`71. :|


Playground Psychotics includes most (if not all) of the John & Yoko stuff.


No way. Well is edited down. King Kong is edited out altogether.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
myourself wrote:
Playground Psychotics includes most (if not all) of the John & Yoko stuff.


No way. Well is edited down. King Kong is edited out altogether.


i stand corrected.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Lennon edited Well too, but he ended it with a crossfade into crowd noise so it sounds like the band is slowly vanishing from the room. Really lame. Zappa did a much more professional hard edit into the following jam, removing some aimless noodling. In fact, Zappa's version would be damn near perfect if he hadn't edited out "King Kong" like a fuckhead.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:32 pm 
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What's it on,FZ's version? I think I'll get Playground Psychotics anyway,so what's the name of the disc FZ has John & Yoyo on? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
Zappa's version would be damn near perfect if he hadn't edited out "King Kong" like a fuckhead.


Ha! This actually made me laugh out loud! Just the verbiage of it all, I guess.... I would just never call Uncle Frank that....
"That Zappa.... what a fuckhead!" :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:31 am 
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They both fucked it up. Lennon should never have mixed it the way he did (although the FZ solo may sound better on SINNYC), but it was quite an event and Frank should have captured the whole thing, then at least his version of events would be buttressed by all the music. I also believe that the video just sucks from that and if there was better video somwone would have put it on youtube. I do think the way John paid attention to Frank's cues does indicate he took it seriously, but the food fight over how to release it afterwards does not speak well of either of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:07 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.


Presumably the multitracks that FZ and Lennon both used still exist.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:08 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.


Presumably the multitracks that FZ and Lennon both used still exist.

Ah! But how do we get to them,seems to be the question.Yoko or Gail? That's a tough pair to draw to.

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