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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:24 am 
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The truth hurts. What polydigm posted was musically correct.

Are we supposed to always throw in some mistakes so we can't be accused of being "know it all" types?

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:45 am 
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Yes master good joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:18 am 
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There is a sort of Harmony going on with the keyboard and voice but they are off beat.check out something like Florentine Pogan then you will see the diffrence It's like the voice goes as close too the instuments as possible yes harmony.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:20 pm 
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HJ wrote:
Are we supposed to always throw in some mistakes so we can't be accused of being "know it all" types?

It's impossible to "know it all" when it comes to music. Not for mathematical reasons but because you can't know exactly what another musician is feeling when he/she is playing. However, if they're playing real good, it is possible to almost know exactly how they feel.

Copying Zappa doesn't make you good. It means you had some free time and you possess some decent guitar playing fingers. I can rewrite Henry Miller word for word. Big deal. I wanna know what you have of your own to express. That's what Zappa did.


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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Thanks HJ. I get your point in the context of what had already taken place in this thread even though others may wish to take you too literally. No-one is claiming to know everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:23 am 
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I can see you ain't got nothing new too add just like before this thread is gone page 4 instead of page 1 because he came and posted what I already said just yes I said after I posted I said it then post Andy Aledort tab and he just stole how he says scales instead of music key,I got the book now and yes I was correct about the flat key change at the end of song they just got 2 Flats and then go on and add a extra flat in the notation.another thing why did the asshole who started thread wait so long he even started a new thread the same because did not have a answer then why didne't you post then before I did could not have been you did not post because I steady posted and you don't like posting in treads I have postedn in.see your full of shit.

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 Post subject: re: inca roads solo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:43 pm 
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cleon wrote:
... then why didne't you post then before I did could not have been you did not post because I steady posted and you don't like posting in treads I have postedn in...

deciphering the densest, most convoluted zappa guitar debauchery is a lay down mizère

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 Post subject: Re: re: inca roads solo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:59 am 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
cleon wrote:
... then why didne't you post then before I did could not have been you did not post because I steady posted and you don't like posting in treads I have postedn in...

deciphering the densest, most convoluted zappa guitar debauchery is a lay down mizère
Still wasting time 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:18 pm 
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At the risk of waking a certain sleeping dog, I was just reading a discussion of this piece at Zappateers where the mixolydian versus lydian issue came up about this solo. I originally said I thought it was C lydian because the bass player leans heavily on the C early in the solo, but the various phrases that FZ is playing there make more sense as D mixolydian. I think the point with a lot of his pieces is that he doesn't play them strictly as single modes. The lydian mode is characterised by the augmented fourth. Typical lydian mode pieces, traditionally, would try to have the piece resolving on the lydian root chord, in this case C major. But FZ is not playing it that way, a lot of his phrases are resolving on the notes of the D major chord and as the solo develops the bass player comes back to the D root more often.

Personally I don't think there is an absolute answer to this. I think it's character is that it's ambiguous whether it's lydian or mixolydian. The transcription by Addi Booth scores the solo in D major, which indicates he believes D major is the root. This idea comes from a 20th century scoring technique of using the key signature that matches the root chord. But, the D major key uses C sharp, so every time there's a C he has to use a natural sign. Personally, I hate this idea. The interplay between C and D in this solo is the main tension and to have to write a natural in front of every use of C is ridiculous. When I write modal tunes I just use the major or minor key that the mode comes from, so C lydian and D mixolydian are both from G major, hence I would use the G major key signature.

This is not about being right or wrong. The problem with the theory of scoring is that towards the end of the 19th C and into the 20th C music is less and less about strict keys. Music had not been written in single keys for a long time and even long before Beethoven, key changes had become common place, but up until towards the latter half of the 19th C, key changes followed certain patterns and each key was introduced in certain ways and then used for a definite amount of time and well established before moving on to another or eventually returning to the main key of the piece. So then, diatonic music was about major and minor scales, seasoned with various characteristic chromatic chords and key signatures made very clear sense. This was blown wide open in the 20th C and there is no single way of using key signatures that will avoid having accidentals all over the place. It's just not generally relevant to try and nail any given modern piece of music into a single key.

I believe that using key signatures to minimise accidentals is the best way to go and then add little notes to the score to indicate your intent with the tonality rather than just using traditional key signatures to indicate this, because they're often totally inadequate. Many composers when they're writing heavily chromatic music don't bother with a key signature at all and use only accidentals. That can be heavy going to read, but sometimes is unavoidable. Too many key signature changes is as messy as too many accidentals.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:04 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
I originally said I thought it was C lydian because the bass player leans heavily on the C early in the solo, but the various phrases that FZ is playing there make more sense as D mixolydian. I think the point with a lot of his pieces is that he doesn't play them strictly as single modes.

The point is expression. I seriously doubt fz was even worried about modes.

polydigm wrote:
Too many key signature changes is as messy as too many accidentals.

You must be listening to Dance Me This.

polydigm wrote:
Personally I don't think there is an absolute answer to this.

Enough said.


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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:01 am 
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polydigm wrote:
At the risk of waking a certain sleeping dog, I was just reading a discussion of this piece at Zappateers where the mixolydian versus lydian issue came up about this solo. I originally said I thought it was C lydian because the bass player leans heavily on the C early in the solo, but the various phrases that FZ is playing there make more sense as D mixolydian. I think the point with a lot of his pieces is that he doesn't play them strictly as single modes. The lydian mode is characterised by the augmented fourth. Typical lydian mode pieces, traditionally, would try to have the piece resolving on the lydian root chord, in this case C major. But FZ is not playing it that way, a lot of his phrases are resolving on the notes of the D major chord and as the solo develops the bass player comes back to the D root more often.

Personally I don't think there is an absolute answer to this. I think it's character is that it's ambiguous whether it's lydian or mixolydian. The transcription by Addi Booth scores the solo in D major, which indicates he believes D major is the root. This idea comes from a 20th century scoring technique of using the key signature that matches the root chord. But, the D major key uses C sharp, so every time there's a C he has to use a natural sign. Personally, I hate this idea. The interplay between C and D in this solo is the main tension and to have to write a natural in front of every use of C is ridiculous. When I write modal tunes I just use the major or minor key that the mode comes from, so C lydian and D mixolydian are both from G major, hence I would use the G major key signature.

This is not about being right or wrong. The problem with the theory of scoring is that towards the end of the 19th C and into the 20th C music is less and less about strict keys. Music had not been written in single keys for a long time and even long before Beethoven, key changes had become common place, but up until towards the latter half of the 19th C, key changes followed certain patterns and each key was introduced in certain ways and then used for a definite amount of time and well established before moving on to another or eventually returning to the main key of the piece. So then, diatonic music was about major and minor scales, seasoned with various characteristic chromatic chords and key signatures made very clear sense. This was blown wide open in the 20th C and there is no single way of using key signatures that will avoid having accidentals all over the place. It's just not generally relevant to try and nail any given modern piece of music into a single key.

I believe that using key signatures to minimise accidentals is the best way to go and then add little notes to the score to indicate your intent with the tonality rather than just using traditional key signatures to indicate this, because they're often totally inadequate. Many composers when they're writing heavily chromatic music don't bother with a key signature at all and use only accidentals. That can be heavy going to read, but sometimes is unavoidable. Too many key signature changes is as messy as too many accidentals.


I like what you said Poly and I agree. Really all you need to do is note the proper key signature, considering the mode, write down the chords on the chart and away you go.


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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:08 pm 
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My post above is making several points.

The point I make about scoring music is not just about expression. If you're a composer and you've written a piece for orchestra you should try to notate your parts to minimise the pain of interpretation for the players. It's like the difference between a good and a bad playwright. It's about communicating your ideas clearly to the performers. If you want them to play your music well you should treat them right.

If we're just talking about expression then the Inca Roads solo is sometimes C lydian, sometimes D mixolydian when he's sticking to the scale notes and sometimes it's D blues when he makes use of the F flat. There's even a G# in one phrase in there which is possibly even a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:51 pm 
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Maybe this would help someone learning this solo......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzwJdPfqOZk

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:32 pm 
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That clip RN posted shows something well.
C lydian, D mixolydian or whatever, it is (dependent on your ability) a reasonably straightforward task to produce a similar sounding solo by (for example) playing the 'lower' notes bottom 3 strings 3rd-5th fret, the 'mid' notes by shifting up two frets 5th-7th fret using the top three strings, and the 'higher' notes by shifting up two further frets - with a few bends and semitones +/- chucked in where appropriate.
I doubt that the words lydian or mixolydian entered FZs head when noodling around in this fashion. That's a problem for the transcribers and theorists...
TT

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:41 am 
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I've been tooling around with this a bit the last couple of days and I'll probably make no sense now...
There's a whole bunch of FZ solos that fluctuate between two notes like this. But just taking this solo, the exact same solo doesn't really sound right if its just played along only with the key of C or only D.

Now, if you tune to open G and adopt the key of C, all but one note of c lydian can be played just using 5th and 7th frets (same for open D - different fret 10th and 12th fret though).
If you then play in the key of D (with a slide), its what every slide blues player has played and will play forever - a regular slide blues solo.

Its almost ironic that much as FZ dissed blues players, the notes he fingered in many solos were really very similar to that which most average joe slide players use in open tunings.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:12 pm 
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Deuce, you had it in your post before the last.


deuce wrote:
I doubt that the words lydian or mixolydian entered FZs head when noodling around in this fashion. That's a problem for the transcribers and theorists...

Exactly. Let the transcribers and analysts transcribe and analyze and let the musicians play. Rarely do the two meet. Sound is invisible. It transcends words. And thank fuck for that.

When you breathe do you think about it first? The same mindset which insists on putting names on everything is the mindset which once made the tritone illegal. For every good music teacher there is a control nazi.

And, yeah, he's using the same notes. It's not about the notes.


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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:30 pm 
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downer, I suspect that you are aware that children breathe correctly, from the diaphragm, and that as we turn into adults, we fuck that up, unless we learn how to breathe properly to, say, play a horn instrument or excel at sports. Most people are crappy at breathing.
Alternately, breathing is also autonomic and playing an instrument isn't. Creating air sculptures or otherwise composing isn't autonomic and, imo, people tend to play reflexive shit they've practised 1000 times if they do it without thinking. People may play well without thinking, but they won't break any new ground except by accident.
The level of thinking doesn't need to really be any more than a shape, a color, this against that... You are correct of course that analysis comes after, but before as well. During a drive, I determine a route, decide to turn left, go 3 miles, change direction because a road is washed out and climb a hill, then afterward I map it out to see where I've been and whether it was worth the trip.
Anyone got any more analogies? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:21 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
During a drive, I determine a route, decide to turn left, go 3 miles, change direction because a road is washed out and climb a hill, then afterward I map it out to see where I've been and whether it was worth the trip.


Poly aimed this discussion at people who are very familiar with Inca Roads. You don't need to plan a route or look back and analyze a route that you've taken, say, 5 days a week for 5 years straight. You don't even think about it. You just drive.
8)


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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:54 pm 
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So what is your point Downer, that people shouldn't analyse music and students shouldn't study music theory at all?

Human beings were drawing and painting in two dimensions for the majority of history. When the idea of perspective and three dimensional drawing came along it revolutionised art. That is now a theory that is taught to art students. Should they perhaps not learn it and discover it for themselves?

The thing about music theory in my opinion is not to say "this is how it should be done", but to say "this is how it has been done" and you don't have to go out and reinvent the wheel, go out and invent something else.

Otherwise we'd all still be swinging from the trees and eating bananas.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:58 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Anyone got any more analogies? :)

This one any good?
Soursop cures / prevents cancer. But the drug companies must turn it into a pill before it can be marketed as such. :|
TT

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:01 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
During a drive, I determine a route, decide to turn left, go 3 miles, change direction because a road is washed out and climb a hill, then afterward I map it out to see where I've been and whether it was worth the trip.


Poly aimed this discussion at people who are very familiar with Inca Roads. You don't need to plan a route or look back and analyze a route that you've taken, say, 5 days a week for 5 years straight. You don't even think about it. You just drive.
8)

I would consider that, for me although certainly not for everyone, to be musical death. Its for people who are happy playing Satin Doll on the hotel lobby piano 5 days a week.
For your example of knowing a song so well that you don't have a map - well, yes you do! Its been done 5d/w/5y. But, that doesn't account for today's performance. Today, perhaps, the keyboardist instrument crapped out and he has to rent a different one that night. The higher harmonics he plays that night inspires the guitarist to solo differently. Maybe its just with a different pedal stomped on, or maybe different modes or feeling or whatever. Your example of not thinking is seen/heard often in this situation. "I just couldn't play right because the keyboard sound was different". The guitarist in this situation is trying to fit his otherwise typical square peg into a previously unknown round hole. The guitarist is forced to try those things in his solo that previously worked but don't have the same results on this new path, one not taken 5d/w/5y... and eats it. The thinking guitarist has a chance in this situation to create something new. The one who just drives has no chance to do anything better than has previously been done... not accounting for Luck, of course, but both thinking and non-thinking players have the same occasional access to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:30 am 
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Wether it's C Lydian or D Mixolydian is totally arbitrary. You can't trace a rigid line between them when there are only 2 chords with the same duration. Like deuce said, Frank was just messing up with the scale, not thinking about wether it's mixolydian or lydian. I always thought about it as D Mixolydian, but after all it can be the two of them at the same time.

Is the Oh No outro C# dorian or F# mixolydian? I hear it mixolydian, but maybe other person hears dorian. Who knows?

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 Post subject: Re: Inca Roads Solo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:54 am 
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All said and done, I've learned a few things and a got few extra licks too now.
So, all good...
TT

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