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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:15 am 
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vaultmeister wrote:
Thinman wrote:
Then just don't make announcements to announcements that don't come. You might have problems with my attitude, but you don't have problems with the money I spent on ZFT product for decades, I presume.

Th.


Whatever dude.
You have made it quite clear over the years here at this forum and elsewhere online what your agenda is. There isn't anything you say or have said in the past that is going to change a single thing. It is what it is. The mere fact that you continually and constantly make the choice to be negative and miserable.........................well, it kinda speaks for itself...doesn't it?


To anyone reading this, I very rarely respond to people's comments here and otherwise, I know you can't please everyone. And everyone is entitled to their opinions. Places like this are made for these discussions and I find it very interesting to read what people are saying & how they feel. I really do take time to keep up on it, even if I choose to be silent. It's just better that way. But after awhile, sometimes it's really hard to stay silent when certain individuals and their commentary, after years of it, just rain on the parade. It's gets to be a little much after awhile and hard to take. I know my comments are only going to add fuel to the fire, I'm sure this is exactly what he wants. In fact, you will all have to endure reading my quote as part of his signature from here on in. He must be proud. And with that, you will not hear me engage with him again. People just choose to be a douche, I just wish they would have enough sense to know when to quit. Sadly, they don't. I apologize for lowering myself to play his game & even acknowledge the spew. But, I guess this just caught me on a bad day. Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled program. Have at it!
Joe

Don't let it bring you down,
It's only castles burning,theres always ol Neil. :mrgreen:
Seriously,I hope your day gets better Vaultmeister.But when "big" announcements aren't made we wonder whats up? I don't know TH over the years,but he's been cool to me here.So this is not personnel either for me.I just am curious as to what,how,when,all things Zappa are happening and when they don't why not? On DZW Dweezil explained his biz hiccups and why and moved on.Why is the rest of the ZFT so ..um secretive about announcements that it announces before the big announcement? Silly really.IMHO
I still love ya bro',you know that.I think most of us here do too. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:17 am 
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balint wrote:
vaultmeister wrote:
I really do take time to keep up on it, even if I choose to be silent. It's just better that way.


Sorry Mr Travers, but You're totally wrong on this one - along with the Zappa Family Trust. How easy it would be to simply answer the questions, to give correct information, no false promises... The ZFT seems to forget, that people are here because they LOVE the music and FZ, and would like to get more - AND pay for it. And with unkept promises... rude or un-undestandable answers... (I'm mostly thinking of GZ here) you all just turn the fanbase against you. Pity.

Now it turned out that anyone who's about to get information about the great composer now will NOT come to this homepage for information, but to other places (that hopefully won't be banned...). It a big big pity. A shame.

I just don't understand, why just one, any of you at ZFT take 5 minutes and give us a few sort and simple answers, informations? It's really sad that You yourself only break your silence when You feel it to be personal and go against somebody; it just - as you said - adds fuel on the fire.

Why are you doing this, why make Us your enemies?... We are - we would like to be - on Your side....

Sorry balint,didn't mean to bump your post. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:36 am 
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tweezers wrote:
I keep checking here to see if there is real news. People, we are not going to change their business model.


They have a business model?
Seriously, I'm just really iffed right now. Vaultmeister: get a spokesperson before I lose all respect for you. After all the disappointments ZFT has given to its fans over the years you can expect us to get cranky at the next empty promise.

Signed, BBP, the same girl who Gail promised to give some information for her thesis two months ago and who will need to pay a 3000 euro fine if she can't get it finished in two weeks.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:28 am 
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I rarely post here, but I do read a lot of the comments daily. I don't care much for the verbal jousting so it's better for me to read than write.
Having said that, I've been wanting to comment for a while now and it's just the right time for me. Im a more than a casual fan, but not a fanatic.

For the longest time I really believed that the ZFT was running a business. I was stuck in a mental model that supposed that people who sold recordings we're in it to make money. I along with others in this forum have laughed and cried at some of the unbelievable non-business moves that the ZFT have made. While not knowing the whole story behind the scenes, the parts we have been exposed to seemed to lack business sense.

It occurred to me at some point that the disdain that Frank had for record companies and the way they conducted their business, had so poisoned the ZFT, that anything related to good business was avoided because it had the "B" word connected to it.

But recently I believe that I've realized what the ZFT is trying to do. My opinion is that they are trying to run this more like a museum than a business. Every once in a while we can pay to hear an exhibit of Frank's work. Funding is based on donations and as long the good name of the institution is held in high regard and kept pure, things are good.

It's not about making money, it's not about how many units could have been sold. It's exposing people to rare works. With that mindset I can almost forgive the ZFT for some of their apparent business gaffs. Because their main goal isn't about providing customers a service or product, and that's part of their plan. My expectations have changed and I'm just waiting for the next exhibit of Frank's work.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:42 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Don't let it bring you down,
It's only castles burning,theres always ol Neil. :mrgreen:
Seriously,I hope your day gets better Vaultmeister.But when "big" announcements aren't made we wonder whats up? I don't know TH over the years,but he's been cool to me here.So this is not personnel either for me.I just am curious as to what,how,when,all things Zappa are happening and when they don't why not? On DZW Dweezil explained his biz hiccups and why and moved on.Why is the rest of the ZFT so ..um secretive about announcements that it announces before the big announcement? Silly really.IMHO
I still love ya bro',you know that.I think most of us here do too. 8)


Dig your take/response on this KK (not to mention the Neil tune!) So many are coming at this so negatively, it was nice to see you still speak your mind but at least be cheery about it.
I agree with you. I personally feel communication is key. Asking (nicely is the preferred method in my book) for an answer to something that was supposed to be announced 5/10 isn't unwarranted.
If you tell your child, sorry son, I can't tell you about that until after your birthday. The kid waits. He marks his calendar. He peeks at it. He plays games crossing off dates with different markers. And then on "the big day", he jumps out of bed when the sun hits his eyes and says, "Daddy, daddy, daddy <FZ pun intended> - what's the deal? What is this thing you couldn't tell me until after my birthday?"

At the very least, just say "Sorry folks, park's closed - we'll be able to tell you something soon. Sorry it went down this way but some circumstances out of our control went awry. We're bummed too. Big announcement soon! In the meantime, click here to download a fun little gem from the XXXX tour: Heavy Duty Judy.

Done! You can't make all the people happy all the time, but ZFT can certainly improve customer relations with better communication skills. That's not a slam, just a suggestion. I have things I can improve about myself as well and I work constantly on becoming a better ME.

So..... "Have at it!" :smoke:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:48 am 
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As Gails own son said, that being Ahmet, Gail is a witch and I'm not talking the bitch variety. I'm talking more of a Crowleyite/Wiccan/Whatever sort. She gets off on the power, the secrecy. That's all there is to it. Either feed her your energy or try to ignore it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:21 am 
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vaultmeister wrote:
… There isn't anything you say or have said in the past that is going to change a single thing. It is what it is. The mere fact that you continually and constantly make the choice to be negative and miserable.........................well, it kinda speaks for itself...doesn't it? …

… In fact, you will all have to endure reading my quote as part of his signature from here on in. He must be proud. …

That is a strange way of communicating with longtime supporters and customers, to say the least. I'm not proud of having an argument with the vaultmeister, but I am indeed proud of having supported Frank Zappa since 1975 by buying releases, re-releases, concert tickets and having convinced others to do so.

Without all those little supporters all over the world from early on there wouldn't be a back catalogue, a vault, a vaultmeister or even a job for a drummer in ZPZ. Even if it is only intended to be some sort of museum, there has to be money to keep it running. It is because of the continuing support from us fans that someone can make a living as employed vaultmeister. The money to pay for that is not falling from the sky.

Any communication concept from the ZFT to the fans should take that into account. Check your reality! If this is beyond someone's abilities, then let someone else do the job. Therefore my signature.

Thinman

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:17 am 
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Thinman wrote:
That is a strange way of communicating with longtime supporters and customers, to say the least. I'm not proud of having an argument with the vaultmeister, but I am indeed proud of having supported Frank Zappa since 1975 by buying releases, re-releases, concert tickets and having convinced others to do so.

Without all those little supporters all over the world from early on there wouldn't be a back catalogue, a vault, a vaultmeister or even a job for a drummer in ZPZ. Even if it is only intended to be some sort of museum, there has to be money to keep it running. It is because of the continuing support from us fans that someone can make a living as employed vaultmeister. The money to pay for that is not falling from the sky.

Any communication concept from the ZFT to the fans should take that into account. Check your reality! If this is beyond someone's abilities, then let someone else do the job. Therefore my signature.

Thinman


For what it's worth, Thinman - I believe you bring up some very valid points here. In FB-speak: "Penguin in Bondage likes this." :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:29 am 
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brainpang wrote:
As Gails own son said, that being Ahmet, Gail is a witch and I'm not talking the bitch variety. I'm talking more of a Crowleyite/Wiccan/Whatever sort. She gets off on the power, the secrecy. That's all there is to it. Either feed her your energy or try to ignore it.

So the business is run by Cosmik Debris?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:34 am 
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brainpang wrote:
As Gails own son said, that being Ahmet, Gail is a witch and I'm not talking the bitch variety. I'm talking more of a Crowleyite/Wiccan/Whatever sort. She gets off on the power, the secrecy. That's all there is to it. Either feed her your energy or try to ignore it.


Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe your source for this is ahmetzappa.com:

"I’m the third of four children born to the late rock musician/ composer, Frank Zappa, and a super-powered psychic witch businesswoman named Gail."

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:13 am 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
If you tell your child, sorry son, I can't tell you about that until after your birthday. The kid waits. He marks his calendar. He peeks at it. He plays games crossing off dates with different markers. And then on "the big day", he jumps out of bed when the sun hits his eyes and says, "Daddy, daddy, daddy <FZ pun intended> - what's the deal? What is this thing you couldn't tell me until after my birthday?"

Not to detract from the thrust of your point, Penguin, which I broadly agree with, I just want to focus gently on this quote coz I do think it’s pertinent and you’ve hit the bally nail on the cliche, and that is... we're NOT kids. We really aren’t. Look at ourselves. Really. Do kids have moustaches like mine? Not many anyway. Yet, as fanboys and fangirls often do (myself included) we get our panties* all in a bunch at times coz we want more FZ stuff and we want it now! The "Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet?" sort of mentality.

Of course if stuff’s promised to a child and then not delivered upon you can certainly expect tantrums and venomous accusations and the old stamp of a young foot. And though we see this here from time to time, the difference is in the shoe size.

It is crystal clear there is a public relations problem at ZFT - you can't have all these disgruntled fans without one I suppose – but there's also a fan response problem. Of course beforehand I was hugely excited (indeed like a child as you say) at the Big Announcement, and initially I was confused at being what I felt was unnecessarily let-down, then frustrated at the massive anti-climax, then yes pissed off, but hey shit happens and I've more going on in my life so I calmed down about it pretty quickly before I rashly rushed to add MORE pages to the already bulky and acerbic "How the ZFT can improve things round here" debate. So all's good with me, we'll see whatever, whenever. I suppose if nothing else it's a lesson in patience, self-control and maturity.

Just to add finally, Penguin: I'm not talking about you in any of this, just using your quote coz you just put your finger on something there I wanted to add into the mix for what it’s worth. :)

And Vaulty: the lack of clarity to what's going on obviously stokes up the embers of (dare I say) immaturity in some fanboys/girls/poodles and, although those fans certainly have personal responsibility in how they conduct themselves, I guess you could do something to help their disgruntlement if you so wished. Up to you. Me, I'm chilled. And lovin’ your work. :smoke:


* I only very rarely wear panties.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:30 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Don't let it bring you down,
It's only castles burning,theres always ol Neil. :mrgreen:
Seriously,I hope your day gets better Vaultmeister.But when "big" announcements aren't made we wonder whats up? I don't know TH over the years,but he's been cool to me here.So this is not personnel either for me.I just am curious as to what,how,when,all things Zappa are happening and when they don't why not? On DZW Dweezil explained his biz hiccups and why and moved on.Why is the rest of the ZFT so ..um secretive about announcements that it announces before the big announcement? Silly really.IMHO
I still love ya bro',you know that.I think most of us here do too. 8)


Dig your take/response on this KK (not to mention the Neil tune!) So many are coming at this so negatively, it was nice to see you still speak your mind but at least be cheery about it.
I agree with you. I personally feel communication is key. Asking (nicely is the preferred method in my book) for an answer to something that was supposed to be announced 5/10 isn't unwarranted.
If you tell your child, sorry son, I can't tell you about that until after your birthday. The kid waits. He marks his calendar. He peeks at it. He plays games crossing off dates with different markers. And then on "the big day", he jumps out of bed when the sun hits his eyes and says, "Daddy, daddy, daddy <FZ pun intended> - what's the deal? What is this thing you couldn't tell me until after my birthday?"

At the very least, just say "Sorry folks, park's closed - we'll be able to tell you something soon. Sorry it went down this way but some circumstances out of our control went awry. We're bummed too. Big announcement soon! In the meantime, click here to download a fun little gem from the XXXX tour: Heavy Duty Judy.

Done! You can't make all the people happy all the time, but ZFT can certainly improve customer relations with better communication skills. That's not a slam, just a suggestion. I have things I can improve about myself as well and I work constantly on becoming a better ME.

So..... "Have at it!"

PIB,it would seem that there are enough of us "good guys" around that love FZ and want to pass him and his music on to the younger generations,that the ZFT would pick up on that and communicate the same.But for some unknown reason,we,the ones that can spread the word better than most,aren't privy to any new Zappanings,until we're suprized by a release ourselves.Thats not my idea of generating excitement for a Zappa release.We join this forum and get the news letters for what.So the ZFT can use us as fodder for they're inside jokes? Tease us with unannouncements? Piss us off with mumbo-wicca-jumbo incantations? I try and be nice on any sensitive subject.But releasing a 'new' official concert package is not my idea of a sensitive subject.I try and be nice and use some humor to lightin things up,but what do I get in return......nada.
For the official releases to reach 100 by the end of the year,would be fantastic.But from the ZFT 'tude so far,unless it's in the bag already,I see another broken promise from the ZFT.Even thats OK if we were kept envolved/informed more than just for our pre-order money.Your idea of "hey there was a glitch so here's a concert cut of Heavy Duty Judy to hold you over" is right on bro'! That would do alot to mend fences so to speak and show that we the fans do matter.
I got a sick feeling that when the 100 releases by the end of 2012 idea was pootforth,they're counting the Ryko re-releases of FZ's catalog this month.I hope not but only time will tell.Of course the ZFT isn't saying doodadly squat about it or they're opinion on the court desisions they lost.Maybe I should volunteer as they're press secretary.I'd at least try and let the fans in on what's going on and why and not just shine them on until I felt I had something to say to those small menions! That 'tude is seeping through to where it's enveloped us all in a brown funk called the ZFT.
Oh! Frankie Where Out Thou...recordings? :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:35 pm 
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My personal position...
I suffer from "collectoritis". Long ago, the number of Zappa product I owned became large enough to cause my affliction to create the "Zappa Collection". It's at the point, now, where I couldn't stand the thought of meeting someone who has 10 F.Z. albums, and one of them is one I don't own. Content/quality is no longer a concern for me. If something new is released, I must buy it!
So...no new releases means money I don't have to spend. And that makes me very happy.
If something new comes out I will buy it. I MUST!
But, the longer it takes, the longer my collection is complete, and the longer I have a rest from "Collectoritis Mania".
Take as long as you like, Zappa people, I'm happy to wait.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
That is a strange way of communicating with longtime supporters and customers, to say the least.


And you have a strange way of communicating AS a supporter, if you can call it that. Generally speaking, NOTHING is good enough for you it seems. And for a very long time, you seem to feel the need to let the world know, over and over again. If this is your way of contributing as a supporter...........

Am I wrong here? I will apologize to you for publically reacting to your comments if so. I am not trying to make enemies, but again, caught me on a bad day. Admittedly, I really should have kept my mouth shut. Sorry everyone.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:19 pm 
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We love you Joe, keep up the good vaultmeisterment work.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:52 pm 
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vaultmeister wrote:
Admittedly, I really should have kept my mouth shut. Sorry everyone.

On the contrary, speaking for myself, I am hugely grateful for your input here. I doff my oversized cap in your direction, Joe. :lol: It's great to hear another voice on this, particularly one with more insight than the rest of us as to release status. As I said above, although I don't share or join in with the occasional gnashing of teeth and the waving of fists, I can see and understand how these fan frustrations develop and become heated (putting aside for a moment my ponderings of the immaturity and overreactions of the fans involved). It's an unnecessary and unhealthy situation for all and ZFT probably should try and help to address it. Do you agree or am I way off the mark? Maybe I am. Actually maybe I should keep my mouth shut too! If you do agree though is there anything that can be done to improve things? That’d be nice. All the best, matey!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Dear Mr. Travers;

vaultmeister wrote:
NOTHING is good enough for you it seems.

I don't remember Thinman wrote anything like this. Here we have a conversations: questions, answers (hopefully), but talking about the topic (here: the "big" announcement), and not about each other.

vaultmeister wrote:
Admittedly, I really should have kept my mouth shut. Sorry everyone.

As I have written earlier: wrong, unfortunately. In one or two simple senteces you could give us information about the subject the ZFT promised, about the future releases, and everybody would be relaxed. Now here you came back just to attack someone, and finally even said that you should "have kept your mouth shut".

Why? Why you (and the ZFT) want to be part of a dialog? What is this forum for? Why don't you answer us - why don't you listen to us?...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:25 am 
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vaultmeister wrote:
Thinman wrote:
That is a strange way of communicating with longtime supporters and customers, to say the least.


And you have a strange way of communicating AS a supporter, if you can call it that. Generally speaking, NOTHING is good enough for you it seems. And for a very long time, you seem to feel the need to let the world know, over and over again. If this is your way of contributing as a supporter...........

Am I wrong here? I will apologize to you for publically reacting to your comments if so. I am not trying to make enemies, but again, caught me on a bad day. Admittedly, I really should have kept my mouth shut. Sorry everyone.

Why are you trying to draw that picture from me? What are your intentions? Why does the ZFT even run this website and forum, when you don't want opinions and don't want to answer questions? What is the section "Questions to the ZFT" (http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1867) for?

Don't expect me to be uncritical about everything the ZFT does. You can ban me anytime. I am a Frank Zappa fan, not a ZFT fan. That is a HUGE difference. The ZFT did not automatically inherit my "affection" when Frank died. The ZFT has to gain that "affection" newly from me by working - and failed miserably on many occasions indeed.

Mr. Travers, doing public relations is probably not your job at ZFT and obviously not one of your skills. If I were the boss of a company and an employee would talk like that to a longtime and newly (for whatever reason) unsatisfied customer, the employee would be in serious trouble. So to keep the mouth shut is probably one of your better ideas before more damage is caused.

Thinman

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:17 am 
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Thinman dear, take a sip of water. Of course, him not saying anything at all would be the regular ZFT-proceedings. The communications gap has been here forever (recalls the 2005 ZPZ postponing) and it's probably not going to change. He apologized, let it rest now, I doubt you can expect any more from the ZFT.
Now if you'll excuse me, I still need to work on my thesis.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:33 am 
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BBP you my need to use telekinesis to get any further information for your thesis......

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:44 am 
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BBP wrote:
Thinman dear, take a sip of water. …

My "sip of water" to calm down is listening to The Grand Wazoo at the moment.

Th.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:58 am 
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Love is the Law...


Last edited by brainpang on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:57 am 
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Gray_Ghost wrote:
BBP you my need to use telekinesis to get any further information for your thesis......


I'm trying but all I can move are the little click balls in your office.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:04 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:06 am 
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I'm as keen as anyone for mOre product. I've got every pre demise FZ album bar Francesco and Filmore. Got the Beat the Boots stuff . Got many of the post demise CDs as well. I'd like to say I'd get all new releases but HO was £48 here in Blighty.

Boutique product or not, that is overpriced.
Devin Townsend's new 5 cd 4 DVD extravaganza based on live recordings in London last year is £40.
The ZFT needs someone with a head for business to run the 'Business' end of their activities.
More product, at a sensible price point , with sensible distribution, would be win- win for everyone.
Instead it's run with a different agenda.

To the ZFT. There must be dozens of small independent labels that could do a better job of getting Frank's music out there, into the hands of fans who will pay for it. You would lose a degree of control. But, we're none of us getting any younger.


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