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 Post subject: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:01 am 
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I love Buffalo and Philly '76, but some fans think those mixes are too compressed to be enjoyable. Although I also enjoy the music of Hammersmith Odeon, I do have some problems with the sound there - something to do with compression and the absence of O'Hearn's bass. I think FZ's own mixes from 1978 are much more dynamic and enjoyable. How do you feel about these matters? Any plans to follow a different path mixingwise in the future?

Cordially yours, Dark Clothes

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:45 am 
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There are certain types of people who do certain types of jobs who like to make it seem as though what they are doing is very difficult. They make it seem like it takes a very special person with a very special gift to do it. Musicians are often this way. A group like Steely Dan was so terrified of being revealed for what they really are- hacks! - that they refused to play live during the height of their fame. They knew they could not possibly recreate the sound that their hired jazz musicians created for them in the studio. A sound they took from Larry Mizell, Donald Byrd, Johnny Hammond, The Crusaders etc. Most of their fans were probably responding more to the amazing talents of their session players than the mediocre songwriting of Walter Brecker and/or vocal abilities of Donald Fagen. Wayne Shorter and Chuck Rainey can make any piece of shit composition sound amazing. Carlos Santana is another good example. It doesn't matter how many Miles Davis or John Coltrane documentaries he appears in, he has still been playing the exact same guitar solo over and over again for 40 years. Pretentious words about the power of music do not cover up what is actually being played. It's not magic. Any idiot can play scales in a given key over some chord progression or bass groove.
Mixing music is another one of these jobs that any monkey can get right. Do you people realize how easy it is to mix a fucking concert? It's not magic. It doesn't take a wizard. It just takes a little time and the desire to do it. Mixing down music should not be considered any more difficult than making bacon and eggs. My point? Stop treating people involved in producing music like they are any more important or skilled than a bus driver or the guy who delivers your mail. The kid who bags my groceries means as much to me as some random sound engineer, some cliche spewing blues guitarist or the inheritor of Frank Zappa's reels. People in the recording biz who use technical jargon and big words to describe their job are bullshitting you. For reasons of job security some people who do this stuff like to put up a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Zappa is dead but his music lives and I don't need a shiny package or any "painstaking" editing/post production bullshit to enjoy it. If Roxy ever comes out it will be too expensive because of the self importance of the people involved. We're all a bunch of rubes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:55 am 
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Hmm, didn't see any of that here. But go ahead and vent, if you must.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:25 am 
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Me? I'm not venting. I'm just trying to explain, to those who might not know, how easy it is to mix a concert. Fucking it up is like burning your eggs. It's like backing into a closed garage door. It's like delivering mail to the wrong address. Sound engineering is at least as easy as being a mailman, taxi driver or line cook. If someone served you a plate of black, burnt eggs or took 4 hours to cook them you would think they were trying to make a fool of you. You'd say, "Sell me the eggs, I'll cook 'em myself."


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:59 am 
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jesus fuck!! stop complaining and just enjoy the shit for what it is. YOU'RE LUCKY TO HAVE IT IN THE 1ST FUCKING PLACE!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:02 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Mixing music is another one of these jobs that any monkey can get right. Do you people realize how easy it is to mix a fucking concert? It's not magic. It doesn't take a wizard. It just takes a little time and the desire to do it. Mixing down music should not be considered any more difficult than making bacon and eggs.


Hey! How about you phone Dweezil and tell him you'll mix those downloads for him?

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:36 pm 
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I don't want to have to listen to Dweezil playing guitar for that long. Why don't you do it? I'm sure you can do just fine. I'd like a shot at the Roxy stuff, though. Just to see what state those materials are really in. (In my dreams!)


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:47 pm 
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jaypfunk wrote:
jesus fuck!! stop complaining and just enjoy the shit for what it is. YOU'RE LUCKY TO HAVE IT IN THE 1ST FUCKING PLACE!!!


You're the only one complaining.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:22 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
There are certain types of people who ... blah blah blah blah blah... all a bunch of rubes.

Well, there we go. I dunno downer, maybe you ARE five, but it's exactly this kinda infantile venom that erroneously sets up the sides of Us and Them. Like Joe is going to answer Dark's question now you've emptied your bladder all over it. Can't you find it in yourself to adopt a more cordial manner in which to express your point, if you have one? There can be no illuminating debates unless you do. That’s part of the problem, friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:23 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
You're the only one complaining.

Wrong again.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:36 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
jesus fuck!! stop complaining and just enjoy the shit for what it is. YOU'RE LUCKY TO HAVE IT IN THE 1ST FUCKING PLACE!!!


You're the only one complaining.

DC starts a perfectly innocent nice thread with simple questions for The Vaultmeister but nooo,some people think their bigger than the whole and have to ruin a otherwise friendly thread by marginalizing the people involved.Pretty pathetic.
This is why we don't have the people involved in the production of FZ music participating in this forum.Do you think they'd listen to any friggin suggestions now DM? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:00 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Do you think they'd listen to any friggin suggestions now DM? :roll:


Sure. Why not? Are they prima donnas? I am still listening and responding after what you and Boris said. I am just as busy and my work is just as important to me as the ZFT's is to them. I never said anything specific to Joe. I said mixing a concert is as easy as frying eggs. I've done both and I've done both well. Now who's complaining? If what I said is fucking up DC's question then somebody is way over sensitive. Don't put it on me if Joe doesn't respond. That's a cop out. I responded after I was personally called out. Why should "they" be any different? That's my whole point. Why must we walk on egg shells with people just because they produce music? Jesus. I doubt Joe T gives a fuck what I said. I'm sure he knows it's true. Some recordings pose more problems than others but it's not magic to mix a fucking show.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:47 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Do you think they'd listen to any friggin suggestions now DM? :roll:


Sure. Why not? Are they prima donnas? I am still listening and responding after what you and Boris said. I am just as busy and my work is just as important to me as the ZFT's is to them. I never said anything specific to Joe. I said mixing a concert is as easy as frying eggs. I've done both and I've done both well. Now who's complaining? If what I said is fucking up DC's question then somebody is way over sensitive. Don't put it on me if Joe doesn't respond. That's a cop out. I responded after I was personally called out. Why should "they" be any different? That's my whole point. Why must we walk on egg shells with people just because they produce music? Jesus. I doubt Joe T gives a fuck what I said. I'm sure he knows it's true. Some recordings pose more problems than others but it's not magic to mix a fucking show.

I got your point,mine was you only posted in the wrong place at the wrong time,(if) you where trying to act interested.It does sound like you belittled his job,and following DC's post,it's like you don't want to hear about it either.Timing my friend,timing,that's all. :wink:
BTW,yours is the second post.So who are you responding to after being "called out"? DC doesn't target you. :?


(have you ever had a bad day)

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Comon people...quit with the fucking etiquette and postering.
THIS IS A FRANK ZAPPA FORUM....dig?

How do you think he would respond to any of this?

DARK CLOTHES is right. Hammerssmith Philly and ESPECIALLY Buffalo are way too compressed and bright.
Call it what it is! It's a shit mastering!

Downer is right in what he says too! I know from the mixing and recording I've done.
It's not rocket science but not everyone has the "ears" for it.


And Frank would respond to people on THEIR LEVEL.
If you were going to piss him off I'm sure he wouldn't back down.
JPFUNK gets it! This is the internet!! Who gives a fuck?

the ZFT should LISTEN to what people want!
We GIVE THEM OUR MONEY.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Another thread that was started with serious intentions and got hijacked by trolls. Thank you, you silly fools!

Thinman

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
Another thread that was started with serious intentions and got hijacked by trolls. Thank you, you silly fools!

Thinman

Only the Thinman know's what's in the Thinman's nose. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
Another thread that was started with serious intentions and got hijacked by trolls. Thank you, you silly fools!

Thinman


Irish Boris and JPFunk are not trolls!

What are you talking about anyway? This thread has not been hijacked. DC's question is still there to be answered. He wants to know if the vaultmeister is going to use less compression on the next one. I mean, it's not that serious.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:18 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Thinman wrote:
Another thread that was started with serious intentions and got hijacked by trolls. Thank you, you silly fools!

Thinman


Irish Boris and JPFunk are not trolls! …

This list doesn't contain yourself. So you know whom I meant.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Thinman wrote:
Another thread that was started with serious intentions and got hijacked by trolls. Thank you, you silly fools!

Thinman


Irish Boris and JPFunk are not trolls! …

This list doesn't contain yourself. So you know whom I meant.

Th.

Jeddy,cal,me,BBP.Have a sip of water,unclinch,one won't be back. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
I love Buffalo and Philly '76, but some fans think those mixes are too compressed to be enjoyable. Although I also enjoy the music of Hammersmith Odeon, I do have some problems with the sound there - something to do with compression and the absence of O'Hearn's bass. I think FZ's own mixes from 1978 are much more dynamic and enjoyable. How do you feel about these matters? Any plans to follow a different path mixingwise in the future?

Cordially yours, Dark Clothes


Hello!
Obviously you are addressing the work of Frank Filipetti. Although it is not my place to speak for him, in my opinion he is a very talented and kind man who respects Frank Zappa and the ZFT very much. He's a professional who has been in the biz a very long time and has done wonderful things in his career. He has his way of doing things. It was his gig, he got the call and it's only fair to respect his choices and approach. What's not fair is to compare his decisions to Frank Zappa's mix style. For the longtime Zappa listeners, it is quite a difference from what we are used to hearing. He wasn't asked to do a sound-alike, he was asked to do what HE felt best. Overall, as with anything, you just have to understand that you cannot please everyone. I've really had to learn that over the years with what I do as well, even drumming with Zappa Plays Zappa. In this case, there are the audiophiles who take things very seriously and are sensitive to how things should sound in their opinion, and then there is the casual listener who just wants to rock & doesn't get caught up in that kinda stuff....you know what I mean?
That being said, I want you to know that I have read the criticisms about these mentioned releases over the years here and elsewhere. I'm well aware of the "Loudness War" and the discussions on this topic. Please know that I have also heard and read many great things from people about these cd's as well. I, too love these releases Dark Clothes. Of course, you all have your own tastes.....etc.
Hope this brings clarity to the subject, I'm not trying to be a "public relations" or spokesperson for the ZFT, only just sharing a little with you.
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:15 am 
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Thanks for your kind, personal and professional answer - music is the best! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:59 am 
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Dear Mr. Travers,

thank you for your answer on this. On thing I'd question:

vaultmeister wrote:
What's not fair is to compare his decisions to Frank Zappa's mix style.

I don't agree with it. It means: "the job is yours - do WHATEVER you want". No one in the music business does it like this. And I'm not talking about "commands", but dialog: according to Your comments the ZFT just gave the tapes to Mr. Filipetti without a word (!) and after a few weeks got back what the result was: "it's your work, thank you" - ZFT might have thougt. Hm, my personal opinion: I dont like this kind of (non-)responsibility from the side of the owner.

vaultmeister wrote:
you just have to understand that you cannot please everyone.

The funny thing is, that with the old, the 'original' FZ-releases EVERYONE is pleased: fans, critics, prog-fans... I'm speaking mostly the vinyl-albums (not the '90s CD-mixes), with which a lots of guys have nostalgic feelings about. It's not magic - it's "only" quality: clear sound, nice mix, etc. And: the beautiful craftmanship Mr Zappa made - how can anyone say in 2012 that "you cannot please everyone", or "not fair is to compare his decisions to Frank Zappa's mix style"?...

vaultmeister wrote:
and then there is the casual listener who just wants to rock & doesn't get caught up in that kinda stuff....you know what I mean?

Well... am I cruel to translate this like: "who cares?". But hey - are we REALLY talking about (once super-high quality) FZ-releases?... After some experiences in quad?... Sad...

vaultmeister wrote:
I'm well aware of the "Loudness War" and the discussions on this topic.

Yes - and that is also NOT a "like - not like" topic, but a question of facts and quality. Another sad thing here at the vicinity of ZFT that this 'loudness' thing happened at all. And all ZFT can say is "well, you can't please everyone..." Sad, sad.

vaultmeister wrote:
I have also heard and read many great things from people about these cd's as well.

We might have different companies/friends... :-) To me it seems that MOST of the comments (soundwise) are not too good, including mine (and my friends'). (My biggest complaint, BTW it the FZ:OZ album: so 'empty', without power... It's a pity that I've bought it.

Going back to future releases: are there any plans for 2012 - sound- and otherwise?...

thanks

B


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:19 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
I don't want to have to listen to Dweezil playing guitar for that long. Why don't you do it? I'm sure you can do just fine. I'd like a shot at the Roxy stuff, though. Just to see what state those materials are really in. (In my dreams!)


I'd have to cross a pond and get a work permit, that'd be needless expenses. :wink: But I'd do it in a giffy otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:33 am 
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balint wrote:
vaultmeister wrote:
you just have to understand that you cannot please everyone.

The funny thing is, that with the old, the 'original' FZ-releases EVERYONE is pleased: fans, critics, prog-fans... I'm speaking mostly the vinyl-albums (not the '90s CD-mixes), with which a lots of guys have nostalgic feelings about. It's not magic - it's "only" quality: clear sound, nice mix, etc. And: the beautiful craftmanship Mr Zappa made - how can anyone say in 2012 that "you cannot please everyone", or "not fair is to compare his decisions to Frank Zappa's mix style"?...

From my experience, Zappa has NEVER pleased everyone - I got on the wagon in 1978/79, and can tell you that many old fans were pissed off at FZ's direction with Sheik Yerbouti and Joe's Garage - even though there's lots of quality there. People will tell you the same about 1970/71, 1973, 1976 - even in 1967 there were many so-called serious, quality-minded people who rejected Zappa as pop comics poop. The whole point of Zappa is that he is a critical voice and an option, isn't it? I have my own thoughts about the best way of issuing and marketing archive material, but I totally understand that my scheme wouldn't please EVERYONE.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:42 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
and I can tell you that a lot of old fans were pissed off at FZ's direction with Sheik Yerbouti and Joe's Garage - even though there's lots of quality there.

I might be wrong, but I think you're talking about the music, and I'm (even you in your original post) about engineering, about the sound. As I see, each and every book, encyclopedia and whatever agrees that FZ was a "composer, satirist AND excellent sound-engineer". I don't think there's a debate on that. Is there?

And - my personal point of view - not a single FZ release got that much criticism as the postumus ones...

But if we think of FZ, it seemed always clear what he wanted to do - what I'm surpised on now, is the ZFT's "do whatever you want" policy. If you read this huge Mark Pinski Interview, you'll see that engineering was also a great deal at the Zappa Headquarters.


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