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 Post subject: re: dear vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:59 pm 
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down-yte wrote:
...Salt and pepper to taste. Serve with bacon...
thanks, looks simple enough, a few questions;

step 3: set volume of each track ... ¿ listen to each track separately from start to finish with hand on the volume knob while watching the level indicators/meters, or listen multiple times to all tracks together, or both ¿

step 4: how many sound waves, including relected, make up the soundstage [& how much did they wave ] ¿

step 5: elaborate on the necessary vocal processing

step 8: elaborate on saturation effects

step 1: if any one of the original tracks were too recorded louder than all the others, wouldn't that set a baseline for the song, or could you crank down the loud track, rather than cranking up all the other tracks to match ¿


th., man, recline a bit, there may be some incidental quotes/copy-paste [step 4 ¿ ], ultimately who gives a fuck, it's an earnest attempt at de-mystifying the process ... and with the exception of specifically addressing the o'hearn bass track, mister vaultman answered the op's question

really appreciate the vaultman chiming in here, probably at great risk to the blanket gag-order... tried to get ff to comment during the loudness war discussion, no response

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:31 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Don't ignore what people quote at you and answer for others its rude and trollish

I have no idea what you're talking about.

polydigm wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
1. Start with a great sounding recording. Mixing and recording are not the same thing.
There it is, this whole issue in a nutshell. If there are no great sounding recordings left, then what?

Then somebody ought to get off their ass and compose some new shit. :)

In the case of Zappa, he has plenty of good sounding recordings left. Halloween '78 was severely edited by Dweezil. Where's the rest of it?

slime.oofytv.set wrote:
listen to each track separately from start to finish with hand on the volume knob while watching the level indicators/meters, or listen multiple times to all tracks together, or both ¿

Sigh.

You can listen to the tracks multiple times together, separately or in any possible combination. It varies. It's up to you. Depends.

slime.oofytv.set wrote:
how many sound waves, including relected, make up the soundstage [& how much did they wave ]

Is this a test? Let's say there are 10 members of the group. Maybe throw in some some echo. You want to place these instruments left and right. Low frequencies closer to the center.
slime.oofytv.set wrote:
elaborate on the necessary vocal processing

First you said 8 easy steps, now this!
Compression, reverb etc. if Cleon is on lead vocals - pitch correction.
slime.oofytv.set wrote:
elaborate on saturation effects

Christ. Look it up online. Should I copy and paste for you?
slime.oofytv.set wrote:
if any one of the original tracks were too recorded louder than all the others, wouldn't that set a baseline for the song, or could you crank down the loud track, rather than cranking up all the other tracks to match ¿

I don't know.....fuck around with it until you're bored or have lost all perspective?
If it's a live recording, probably turn down the loud track. But not necessarily. Do whatever you can to make it sound balanced. I am not obsessed with mixing because it is the performance that really counts. The mix is important but it's less important than the recording itself. If an important live recording is really unbalanced I would suggest just living with it.

Thinman wrote:
Rule #1: Never copy&paste without providing the source. Trying to sell some uncredited copied information as your own knowledge is disgusting.

Don't be disgusted. There's no specific source. That's like crediting someone for the instructions on a frozen pizza box. Everything not in parenthesis was off the top of my head. The other shit was bonus material.

Ok, ok....You got me! I know nothing about mixing. I just want you to think I am a brilliant mixing genius, so that I can feel superior. I copied and pasted this response as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:56 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
cleon wrote:
Don't ignore what people quote at you and answer for others its rude and trollish

I have no idea what you're talking about.


None of us do.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Well your thick stupid asshole so what,disco boy is a wannabe us go fuck yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:57 am 
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Cleon. Do us all a favor. Go to night school. Take a remedial English course.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Amen

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:58 pm 
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I have, ahem, mixed thoughts about the 8 steps. Yes, as a reduction, there is accuracy in MUCH of the list. But, the same could be said of building a car:
1. Start with all the parts built
2. Put them together according to the manual
3. Make sure it looks right
4. Make sure it runs right
Hey, that's only 4 steps, so building a car must be even easier than mixing!

Another problem I have is that everyone knows that every session is different. Responding to the noises, both on and off tape, the things you thought sounded good in recording actually sound like shit, dealing with equipment from multiple manufacturers both when they work correctly and otherwise, thinking on your feet is a fact of life when mixing and doesn't apply to a list of steps. People should know that unless the band is extremely lucky with a near-unlimited budget, there are almost always problems that put you outside the realm of "start with a great recording".

So, back to frying an egg.
You probably don't have your own chickens and in your example you start with good recordings, but imo mixing works best when you recorded it yourself as its the most certain way to know the details of the recording. Sure, endless listening can provide similar results, but if you want a fresh egg...
The level of complexity depends on the equipment. If you are on an island with no cookware, frying a delicious egg isn't a simple project. 4-tracks can be much easier than 64+ and while there are excellent results at times with even the most rudimentary format, in general you will get more reliable results in a UMR Kitchen. Otherwise, step 0.1 would be "Build a kitchen".
"Salt to taste" - Is taste easy? With fried eggs I suppose it is, maybe a chef would say otherwise I don't know. For certain people with enough natural talent and experience mixing, taste may be easy. Philosophically, easy taste is a gut reaction, not a decision, so on an intellectual level, taste takes work, something most people put outside of the "easy" category. Most artistic decisions are not easy, but purposeful, made for specific reasons. Many artists are known for agonizing over the smallest details, such as "should I write the word "and" or "but"?". "Should I eq or leave it sounding muddy?" "Should I compress or have the bridge be too quiet to hear detail?" You can probably get the job done by ignoring the answer to any of these questions, but the artist has reasons for the decision made. Yes, I understand you don't consider the Recordist to be an Artist, but thats not necessary for this argument as someone has to make these choices in an artistic capacity whether its the Producer or Performer, but the Recordist is the one driving the ship and is usually left determining the answer to "How are we going to make that sound how we want it to?".

Is mixing as easy as frying an egg? It can be. But, if its any good, its likely not.

Analogies - Things that are like other things, not the same as other things. I think downer probably knows this, but most people need to be reminded fairly often.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Agreed. But, you can lead a horse to water ...

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:12 am 
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Bring the water to the boil, carefully place the horse in the boiling water, simmer on a low heat for 24 hours, stirring every hour. Warning: The horse may show some reluctance to being boiled.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:31 am 
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Almost every task, regardless of its simplicity, or supposed simplicity, is better performed by those with experience. I have professionals install vinyl flooring in my house because I will make a wrong cut, waste materials and have to go back to the store and the place will be out of my pattern, etc., etc., etc.

We all hear differently The first mixes of "Satisfaction" in the digital era mixed the acoustic guitar way too far out front. I was at first intrigued ("I never heard the acoustic guitar during the '60s"), but I ultimately concluded, they overdid it.

Alice Cooper once said that "Most rock records are mixed to be heard on car stereos that cost less than the dope that the driver is smoking while listening" (or something to that effect). I have a friend who does studio work and he walked me through the way that things are wired now, things have changed. Glyn Johns, Alan Parsons and Jimmy Iovine started and mixed some of the greatest records released in my lifetime. Believe me, "Abbey Road" didn't come from someone who just learned to fry an egg.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:07 pm 
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tweezers wrote:
"Abbey Road" didn't come from someone who just learned to fry an egg.

It tastes like it did. A little burnt around the edges, a little runny in the middle. It was certainly a sloppily cracked egg. Maxwell's Silver Hammer and Octopuses Garden? Eggshells.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:40 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
tweezers wrote:
"Abbey Road" didn't come from someone who just learned to fry an egg.

It tastes like it did. A little burnt around the edges, a little runny in the middle. It was certainly a sloppily cracked egg. Maxwell's Silver Hammer and Octopuses Garden? Eggshells.


Geeeeesh - tough crowd! "Abbey Road" is my favorite Beatles album. I could do without Maxwell but even taking that out, it blows away most albums ever made. (IMO) :smoke:

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:43 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
"Abbey Road" is my favorite Beatles album

Ha. It is a little burnt around the edges. But yeah, Abbey Road is pretty great. The engineer was Geoff Emerick and apparently they used a transistorized mixing console which had a significant effect on the sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:47 pm 
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tweezers wrote:
"Abbey Road" didn't come from someone who just learned to fry an egg.
downer mydnyte wrote:
It tastes like it did. A little burnt around the edges, a little runny in the middle. It was certainly a sloppily cracked egg. Maxwell's Silver Hammer and Octopuses Garden? Eggshells.

PenguinInBondage wrote:
Geeeeesh - tough crowd! "Abbey Road" is my favorite Beatles album. I could do without Maxwell but even taking that out, it blows away most albums ever made. (IMO) :smoke:
Even though there is some good stuff on side one, side two is a gem, one of the best album sides ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:46 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Well your thick stupid asshole so what,disco boy is a wannabe us go fuck yourself.


cleon's collection is now on display...

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:11 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
cleon wrote:
Well your thick stupid asshole so what,disco boy is a wannabe us go fuck yourself.


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You don't need too prove your hormones I can tell your neither a boy or a lady :D

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:14 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
cleon wrote:
Well your thick stupid asshole so what,disco boy is a wannabe us go fuck yourself.


cleon's collection is now on display...

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You don't need too prove your hormones I can tell your neither a boy or a lady :D


squeeze that trigger and he'll be a lady tonight....


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:20 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
cleon wrote:
Well your thick stupid asshole so what,disco boy is a wannabe us go fuck yourself.


cleon's collection is now on display...

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You don't need too prove your hormones I can tell your neither a boy or a lady :D

Gray_Ghost wrote:
squeeze that trigger and he'll be a lady tonight....


cleon does not approve of that comment...

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"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 pm 
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^^^ on PC screen,Mud Shark?

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister JT
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:43 pm 
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I like Greasy Love Songs just fine.Is there anything wrong with it that I shouldn't enjoy? Was I supposed to "compare" it to RATJ before I like it? JT,anyone?


Hey Joe,were you going with that gun in you hand now? :wink: :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:19 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
^^^ on PC screen,Mud Shark?


Good eye, K.K. I didn't even notice that! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Scuse me, whats a Vaultmeister ?


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Even though there is some good stuff on side one, side two is a gem, one of the best album sides ever.


I usually start with my favorite song on the album- Because, and listen through to the end. I really like Sun King, Mean Mr Mustard and You Never Give Me Your Money, which utilizes about 25 different chords in 4 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:17 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Even though there is some good stuff on side one, side two is a gem, one of the best album sides ever.


I usually start with my favorite song on the album- Because, and listen through to the end. I really like Sun King, Mean Mr Mustard and You Never Give Me Your Money, which utilizes about 25 different chords in 4 minutes.



I was pretty much really stuck on that album in 1975 and had a spiritual epiphany while listening to “Here Comes the Sun” on the radio one morning as I awakened to a sun beam entering my window. It turned out my buddy Steve was having the same experience and called me, the connection of the sun, the song, and the phone call from someone having a similar experience was very unlikely event in those days of hard line phones. We decided to grab our gear and immediately leave for the Ocean and the enlightened euphoria carried over to a phenomenal sunny beach day and an all day surfing session, I still remember that day like it was yesterday… Ooops different album…

:smoke:


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Vaultmeister
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:11 am 
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'Abbey Road' was the first album to earn me a "turn it down!" complaint from the neighbours. 8)

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