Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:18 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 10:33 pm
Posts: 61
For example - I think Big Leg Emma, most Freak Out! songs like Love of My Life, Trouble Every Day, I Ain't Got No Heart, etc... Dupree's Paradise (88 versus 73/74), Pound for A Brown, and Dog Meat are better on most later albums than their original versions from the albums or tours they first appeared.

_________________
Gail Zappa, zappa.com, December 2, 2010
Dance Me This?—2011

Gail Zappa, zappa.com, November 2010
Dance Me This and The Rage And The Fury should be out by 2012.

Gail Zappa, zappa.com, March 28, 2012
Within the year from now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 1245
Location: Nashville, Tn
You can all crucify me now... but Andy, Florentine, Inca, Rollo, Yellow Snow Suite, and Village of the Son from 78-80 with the Vinnie/Arthur rhythm section and Ike handling the vocals are my favorites versions. George Duke is a monster player but Vinnie/Arthur/Mars are the "band", if these three were in a lineup Frank was right at home. (All of this is opinion of course)

That said (and slightly off-topic) I generally dislike Andy as a solo vehicle, the vamp is waaay to distracting, I have similar qualms with some tours versions of Easy Meat.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:53 am
Posts: 2205
Location: Hamilton, NJ
I just don't like Easy Meat. I like many later versions of King Kong better than those on UM, even though UM is my favorite FZ LP. I think Carnegie Hall has my current fave KK.

_________________
If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little bit ugly on the side)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1242
Grimpoteuthis wrote:
That said (and slightly off-topic) I generally dislike Andy as a solo vehicle, the vamp is waaay to distracting


One bit some listeners miss is that FZ didn't solo on "Andy" in 1979. It was Warren playing the same solo FZ played in the studio version.

However, he did play great solos on both the Buffalo and Best Band versions.

My drum teacher and I used to discuss Zappa music and although he hadn't been a fan of the Chad Wackerman era bands (he said Chad sounded better with Allan Holdsworth), he bought Best Band and told me he thought the OSFA songs there were better than the originals.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:35 am
Posts: 516
pbuzby wrote:
My drum teacher and I used to discuss Zappa music and although he hadn't been a fan of the Chad Wackerman era bands (he said Chad sounded better with Allan Holdsworth), he bought Best Band and told me he thought the OSFA songs there were better than the originals.

I know what your teacher meant because that segue of Mr. GG, Pogen, Andy and Inca is EPIC!!

Here's some of my favorite updates:
Brown Shoes Don't Make It - TTR
Love Of My Life - TTR
Shove It Right In - YCDTOSA 6
He's So Gay - YCDTOSA 6
Strictly Genteel - MAJNH
Cruisin' For Burgers - ZINY
The Torture Never Stops - ZINY
Who Needs The Peace Corps? - TBBYNHIYL
Eric Dolphy Memorial BBQ - TBBYNHIYL

Honorable mention:
Zomby Woof - YCDTOSA 1 (the solo section is so goddam funky)
Honey, Don't You Want A Man Like Me? - YCDTOSA 6 (the Sam Kinison screams are hilarious)
Little House I Used To Live In - FE (Flo & Eddie's melodies are killer)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 1245
Location: Nashville, Tn
pbuzby wrote:
Grimpoteuthis wrote:
That said (and slightly off-topic) I generally dislike Andy as a solo vehicle, the vamp is waaay to distracting


One bit some listeners miss is that FZ didn't solo on "Andy" in 1979. It was Warren playing the same solo FZ played in the studio version.



I had missed this indeed. Cool to know. This is why I wished more video existed of each tour. The number of times I thought it was Tommy when it was Peter while watching the new Passaic videos was a bit embarrassing. Would love to see the 79 band and the Vinnie 80 band in proshot form. (Favorite tours)

I agree Andy can have cool solos but those synth/bass/drum stabs during the solo sound like they are falling apart like 90% of the time.

Also loving (and agreeing) with the contributions on this list particularly the BBYNHIYL ones.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:42 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: The Short Forest
Best "I'm Not Satisfied" is on Ruben/GLS.
Pretty much everything off Zoot Allures except Black Napkins and the title track sound better on all later live versions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:07 am
Posts: 1585
Wow, I have to admit that I'm normally fine with most of the original versions of tunes named here. It should be noted that the versions weren't so much "updated", but simply live recordings. I know Zappa is one of these artists where technical skill is more important than other factors, but dammit, I like these other factors too much!

I think my favourite version of "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" is on Road Tapes 2, hands down.

Most disappointing "update"? "More Trouble Every Day".

_________________
Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:38 am
Posts: 160
Location: Germany
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Most disappointing "update"? "More Trouble Every Day".


Agreed, the original was much better!

_________________
You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 Nuclear Powered Pan-Sexual Roto-Plooker
And you're gonna have to pay for it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 3:50 am
Posts: 68
The Torture Never Stops


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1242
VacuumCleaner wrote:
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Most disappointing "update"? "More Trouble Every Day".


Agreed, the original was much better!


Love the Roxy & Elsewhere track. If you mean the 80's versions, yes, not great but FZ played some good solos on it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 6945
Location: South wales
Evil Prince Vol 4 YCDTOSA
It's weird how listening too Digital Recorded Band is Best though individual talent in the band can be the same :twisted:

_________________
Arf you out of your fucking mind.Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:48 pm
Posts: 976
Location: Austin
Honey, Dont You Want a Man Like Me? never sounded as good as the live rendition the late '75 band did... the more funky slow backbeat Bozzio one. Joe's Manage has it. Even the version Frank changed the tempo on right after the first one was cool... he sped it up a lot - but I LOVE the first rendition.

_________________
Take a penny... give a shit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:48 pm
Posts: 976
Location: Austin
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Wow, I have to admit that I'm normally fine with most of the original versions of tunes named here. It should be noted that the versions weren't so much "updated", but simply live recordings. I know Zappa is one of these artists where technical skill is more important than other factors, but dammit, I like these other factors too much!

I think my favourite version of "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" is on Road Tapes 2, hands down.

Most disappointing "update"? "More Trouble Every Day".


I too am a huge fan of that Road Tapes 2 Browns Shoes... So cool!@

_________________
Take a penny... give a shit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:51 pm
Posts: 355
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
I'm normally fine with most of the original versions

One side-note: within FZ's works I would avoid the phrase "original version": it suggest there there are "originals" of which there are some 'versions' later, but as time shows us it rarely is the case - FZ always changed and re-orchestrated the tunes, and the first one is not nesseceraly the "original" one, but also "one version among the others". (Just an example: which one is the "original" Inca Roads? The first release as we now it from One Size Fits All, OR the '72 (instrumental) version that was released years later on Lost Episodes? I think: both.)
That's the point where Dweezil makes a mistake when he tries to copy some "original versions" on stage: something FZ never (never, never, never) did. To him it was an opportunity to re-think a tune and bring it to life, to the present - the most funny (ridiculous) parts are where Dweezil and the band makes a word-by-word reproduction of a one-time-only impovised event that was released one time on a live album).

This way some of his later versions became better or more rich, some became more funny - or more weak. The thing I enjoy most is the richness (and the existence) of the variations - the cases where the later versions are better to me:

- King Kong '88: no, not nessecarily "better", but so refreshing.
- Bamboozled by Love '88: not nessecarily "better" again, but sooooo refreshing: the horns!.
- The Black Page '88 (New Age): perfectionment of something that was already perfect earlier
- City of Tiny lites '82: I love the way it breaks into parts, great solo (as always)
- Big Swifty '73, Roxy - the best version: with the changes of tempos, the solos, the changes behind the solos, the returning of the main theme in slow motion at the end: just perfect.
- ?....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 10:33 pm
Posts: 61
^ I meant "original version" as in, the first version that appeared on a Zappa album. So while Inca Roads, or RDNZL for another example, goes back to '72-'73, I'm talking about the OSFA version compared to later versions, as the earlier version wasn't the "completed" work.

_________________
Gail Zappa, zappa.com, December 2, 2010
Dance Me This?—2011

Gail Zappa, zappa.com, November 2010
Dance Me This and The Rage And The Fury should be out by 2012.

Gail Zappa, zappa.com, March 28, 2012
Within the year from now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1242
For "Bamboozled" I like the 84 version with the faster tempo and synth hook, plus the vocal harmonies make the song seem a sillier (not a bad thing when you combine it with the murder threats of the lyrics).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2364
pbuzby wrote:
My drum teacher and I used to discuss Zappa music and although he hadn't been a fan of the Chad Wackerman era bands (he said Chad sounded better with Allan Holdsworth)

I've yet to hear Holdsworth do anything other than ruin whatever band he happens to be blowing his premature load over the top of.

I can't think of any Zappa songs that I prefer over the originals. I'm sure there's a couple. Which RDNZL is the original? Lather or Studio Tan or? I like Helsinki 1974 the best.

There's some great solos from live versions of Torture but it's impossible to recapture the atmosphere of the original. With or without Gail's contribution. If I remember correctly Zappa plays bass on it, too. There's an incredible vibe on that studio version. But it's not necessarily preferable in terms of the guitar solo.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:14 am
Posts: 18957
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA
downer mydnyte wrote:
I've yet to hear Holdsworth do anything other than ruin whatever band he happens to be blowing his premature load over the top of.

Can someone provide a link where I can finally hear what's special about this guy? He fucked up Tony Williams Lifetime and Soft Machine so please don't refer me to that.

If you don't like his playing, it's not likely anything in particular would change that, BUT...... I quite like him on U.K.'s first album... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJrOg79kQU

and Bill Bruford's first solo album "Feels Good To Me"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRl-IIPe ... 2A549EA442

_________________
You're probably wondering why I'm here
(not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to ya)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2364
Okay, Doug. Thanks.

I actually toned down my post while you were replying so I wouldn't sound like such a dick. haha. I was a bit harsh there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:51 pm
Posts: 355
Zappa Time wrote:
^ I meant "original version" as in, the first version that appeared on a Zappa album.

I see, but even FZ goes against this when he calls the Torture Never Stops from '75 (YCDTOSA vol 4) the "original version".
Of course I understand what is the thing we are talking about, I just suggest to change the word "original" to something else. The main thin in Zappa's music is the change itself, not having something "original" to wich someone has to go back.

By the way: I really LOVE Black Napkins, I keep on listenning the different versions and orchestrations, and as time goes by I tend to like less the "original" (heh: the first released) version on Zoot Allures, because it is shortened, it is not building up the way it used to (two repetitions, the second one with humming vocals, etc.), so to me the first released version is NOT the original one at all. (Nowadays I prefer the Ljubljana version (FZ plays the music of FZ - I extended it with the eding from a bootleg), and the '88 version is just beautiful and beautiful and beautiful).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1242
just plain doug wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I've yet to hear Holdsworth do anything other than ruin whatever band he happens to be blowing his premature load over the top of.

Can someone provide a link where I can finally hear what's special about this guy? He fucked up Tony Williams Lifetime and Soft Machine so please don't refer me to that.

If you don't like his playing, it's not likely anything in particular would change that, BUT...... I quite like him on U.K.'s first album... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJrOg79kQU

and Bill Bruford's first solo album "Feels Good To Me"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRl-IIPe ... 2A549EA442


I like Holdsworth the most with his own groups (try IOU) but the way he sounded with Tony Williams and Soft Machine is basically the way he always sounds, although he tends to solo on more complicated chord sequences in his own stuff rather than their simple fusion vamps.

Re "RDNZL," technically the first was Lost Episodes, then Helsinki 1974, then the Lather/Studio Tan version was a few months after that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:48 pm
Posts: 976
Location: Austin
pbuzby wrote:
just plain doug wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I've yet to hear Holdsworth do anything other than ruin whatever band he happens to be blowing his premature load over the top of.

Can someone provide a link where I can finally hear what's special about this guy? He fucked up Tony Williams Lifetime and Soft Machine so please don't refer me to that.

If you don't like his playing, it's not likely anything in particular would change that, BUT...... I quite like him on U.K.'s first album... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJrOg79kQU

and Bill Bruford's first solo album "Feels Good To Me"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRl-IIPe ... 2A549EA442


I like Holdsworth the most with his own groups (try IOU) but the way he sounded with Tony Williams and Soft Machine is basically the way he always sounds, although he tends to solo on more complicated chord sequences in his own stuff rather than their simple fusion vamps.

Re "RDNZL," technically the first was Lost Episodes, then Helsinki 1974, then the Lather/Studio Tan version was a few months after that.


I'll go ahead and disagree with him messing up Tony Williams Lifetime. I fuckin love his playing on it.

_________________
Take a penny... give a shit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:35 am
Posts: 516
balint wrote:
I see, but even FZ goes against this when he calls the Torture Never Stops from '75 (YCDTOSA vol 4) the "original version".

Torture from Vol. 4 is probably the only FZ tune I extremely dislike. It sucks out loud.

Phlakaton wrote:
I'll go ahead and disagree with him messing up Tony Williams Lifetime. I fuckin love his playing on it.

Tony Williams - Believe It is one of my favorite albums of all time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:51 pm
Posts: 355
pbuzby wrote:
Re "RDNZL," technically the first was Lost Episodes, then Helsinki 1974, then the Lather/Studio Tan version was a few months after that.

Oh yes - how interesting: almost all the later released versions are older then the first released one (even Road Tapes #2), the only newer version is from '82 (a loveable one, one of my favorites, by the way).


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group