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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:39 am 
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Have to admit, that Finer Moments review on All Music Guide was interesting. It noted that 1972 may have been the earliest time when FZ took out the solos from a longer song and retitled it as a "new" track.

However, surely it goes back the long way, way back to the Uncle Meat album in fact. Witness:

"Ian Underwood Whips it Out" = King Kong saxophone solo
"Nine Types of Industrial Pollution" = a specifically treated studio solo from "Sleeping in a Jar".
"Theme from Burnt Weeny Sandwich" = a specifically treated studio solo from "Lonely Little Girl".
"Get a Little" - another case for a solo from post-"Sleeping in a Jar" jam.
"Toads of the Short Forest Part Two" = "Orange County Lumber Truck" conducted improv bit pasted onto "Toads" proper.
"The Nancy & Mary Music" - King Kong improvs (it may also include a solo from "Pound for a Brown", when it goes to D-minor mode)
"Lonesome Electric Turkey" - Don Preston Moog solo from "King Kong".

It appears FZ was always fond of isolating certain solos or improvised bits from prewritten compositions and releasing them not as "King Kong solo" or "Pound for a Brown" solo, but with an entirely new title. This composition out of improvisation approach goes well back to the original Mothers days.

Now my question is:

How do we know "The Nancy & Mary Music" was taken from "King Kong" (okay, there is a giveaway or two: it's in E-flat and Ian plays sax), whereas it has so far been assumed "Get a Little" is just among the "assorted jams of 1969-72" or whatever? In both cases we are missing the live ROIOs. Maybe it's because the last of the 60s Mothers had the reputation as a wild avant-garde improv band, whereas the Flo & Eddie group appeared in many ways as a pop band, with the exception of "King Kong" as the sole vehicle for free blowing.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:32 am 
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Interesting subject.

To go even further back, various sections of Lumpy Gravy, both the original Capitol and the Verve versions even predate the tracks you listed.


My question is, whats the earliest known example of this technique by FZ?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am 
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Another example from the Flo & Eddie era is "Junier Mintz Boogie," excerpted from "Willie the Pimp."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:43 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
How do we know "The Nancy & Mary Music" was taken from "King Kong" (okay, there is a giveaway or two: it's in E-flat and Ian plays sax), whereas it has so far been assumed "Get a Little" is just among the "assorted jams of 1969-72" or whatever? In both cases we are missing the live ROIOs. Maybe it's because the last of the 60s Mothers had the reputation as a wild avant-garde improv band, whereas the Flo & Eddie group appeared in many ways as a pop band, with the exception of "King Kong" as the sole vehicle for free blowing.


It's always possible they did something unique at this show, but for the various reasons you mention it seems like a safe assumption that it is from "King Kong."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:47 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
"Get a Little" - another case for a solo from post-"Sleeping in a Jar" jam.
"Toads of the Short Forest Part Two" = "Orange County Lumber Truck" conducted improv bit pasted onto "Toads" proper.


Also from this album "Gas Mask" is from "King Kong."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:14 am 
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Really? Okay, there certainly is some overlapping material with "Gas Mask" on Weasels and "King Kong" on "Ahead of Their Time". I just now checked out the setlist for the RFH show in 1968 and it does seem that these improvisations did indeed take place as part of the "King Kong" monstrosities. So it wasn't necessarily a cut-and-paste tape edit on FZ' behalf (but the improv bits on "Transylvania Boogie" most certainly were). And it also appears that "Ahead of Their Time" blends early and late shows into a monolithic concert album: the Lumber Truck Medley is from the late show, everything else from an early show.

However, it is a bit weird that "Help I'm A Rock/Transylvania Boogie" do not appear in the Zappateers setlist for the Festival Hall show. I don't know if there's a tape cut for the early show, so another explanation that I can muster is that the combo appeared on the late show, but were unrecorded by the bootlegger.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:31 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Really? Okay, there certainly is some overlapping material with "Gas Mask" on Weasels and "King Kong" on "Ahead of Their Time". I just now checked out the setlist for the RFH show in 1968 and it does seem that these improvisations did indeed take place as part of the "King Kong" monstrosities. So it wasn't necessarily a cut-and-paste tape edit on FZ' behalf (but the improv bits on "Transylvania Boogie" most certainly were). And it also appears that "Ahead of Their Time" blends early and late shows into a monolithic concert album: the Lumber Truck Medley is from the late show, everything else from an early show.

However, it is a bit weird that "Help I'm A Rock/Transylvania Boogie" do not appear in the Zappateers setlist for the Festival Hall show. I don't know if there's a tape cut for the early show, so another explanation that I can muster is that the combo appeared on the late show, but were unrecorded by the bootlegger.


As far as I know Ahead Of Their Time breaks down as follows:

beginning through partway through the Ian/Roy dialogue section - late show
second half of Ian/Roy through "King Kong" ("Gas Mask" section) - early show
"King Kong" (end) through "Transylvania Boogie" theme - late show
"Transylvania Boogie" (ending percussion solo section) through "Sleeping In A Jar" - early show
OCLT Medley - late show

For the late show we don't have an unofficial source, except for a few songs in an early mix/edit from FZ ("Uncle Meat," "In The Sky" and the same performance of the OCLT Medley).


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