Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:47 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 5900
Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
... You're right, you're too heavy to be in this group ...

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:05 am
Posts: 6
Waka/Jawaka


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:22 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Huntingdon, TN
NuclearProstate wrote:
I have been listening to TGW constantly recently. But does it count as serious? It has such a light hearted tone for the most part. The writing is beautiful though. Eat That Question could be my current favorite pieces of music.


I've listened to The Grand Wazoo a couple of times since you made this post. I think it is a serious work. Blessed Relief is absolutely beautiful in my opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1952
Nuclear Prostate wrote:
I have been listening to TGW constantly recently. But does it count as serious?

Are you serious? There is no Zappa authority. He's dead. You should draw your own conclusions. I think it's obvious that The Grand Wazoo is serious. The definition of serious in this discussion is also debatable. I don't think Zappa was being serious when he used the term "serious music". Personally,I don't take CP3 (in it's entirety) nearly as seriously as I take even 3 minutes of Blessed Relief.

btw, the synclavier was used experimentally, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:41 pm
Posts: 14650
Shrug. You could also say that somebody who made their living by music alone was being serious all the time.

_________________
One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 5900
Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
Good point Cal.

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:22 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Huntingdon, TN
downer mydnyte wrote:
Nuclear Prostate wrote:
I have been listening to TGW constantly recently. But does it count as serious?

Are you serious? There is no Zappa authority. He's dead. You should draw your own conclusions. I think it's obvious that The Grand Wazoo is serious. The definition of serious in this discussion is also debatable.


I believe he is trying to draw his own conclusions. But, he is also asking for opinions and help from people who have more experience listening to Zappa. If I remember correctly, he was only 2 years old when Zappa died? You are correct that the definition of serious is also debatable. But judging from past threads that I've read, we may be better off avoiding that altogether. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 12780
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
Philostopher wrote:
the definition of serious is also debatable. But judging from past threads that I've read, we may be better off avoiding that altogether. :mrgreen:

+ 1 8) :lol:

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:16 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Connecticut US
Serious music is a vague, relative term. Also, who is making that determination?
From what I have read and heard, Frank was perfectionist. That is obvious by his listening to his output.

_________________
"there is naught nor ought there be nothing
so exalted on the face of god’s grey
Earth as that prince of foods... the muffin!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1952
Philostopher wrote:
he is also asking for opinions and help from people

That's what I gave him.

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
the definition of serious is also debatable. But judging from past threads that I've read, we may be better off avoiding that altogether. :mrgreen:

+ 1 8) :lol:

+1 more


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:22 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Huntingdon, TN
downer mydnyte wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
he is also asking for opinions and help from people

That's what I gave him.


You most certainly did. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.

So, we are all in agreement that The Grand Wazoo is serious {undefined} music?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1952
Philostopher wrote:
So, we are all in agreement that The Grand Wazoo is serious {undefined} music?

Probably not, but that's why Zappa's great. There's never any true consensus.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 12780
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
The Grand Wazoo is The Grand Wazoo. :wink:

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:57 pm
Posts: 143
And fuck you if you don't like his hat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:22 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Huntingdon, TN
Calm down. I think it is a striking hat. I wish I had one to wear to work. All the other factory workers would think I was mighty grand. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 6869
Location: exile
mg: do you rank your music In any kind of hierarchy? do you consider the rock and roll stuff inferior to the classical stuff?

fz: no.

mg: it's all the same?

fz: it's a different aspect of the same thing. I've got an imagination. so I earn a living by producing merchandisable manifestations of portions of my imagination.

mg: so you don't do one type of music in order to pay for another?

fz: no, I would probably do "baby take your teeth out" if nobody paid me. I mean, nobody did pay me. that particular song was concocted at a soundcheck at the place where this concert was taking place in frankfurt. we played at the alte opera in 1982, and that song came from that soundcheck.

dm: I'm still stuck on something you brought up about not ranking your compositions. if something like "n-lite" took ten years to do and "baby take your teeth out" took 20 minutes, why should they be the same? it seams to me you've put more Into one than the other, and therefore you might have an opinion of that effort yielding more than the 20-minute one.

fz: well, the function of both things is to entertain. the one that took ten years is probably way over budget in terms of how much bang for the buck you're going to get. the end of any piece is basically; you're decorating time. "baby take your teeth out" is a minute and ten seconds. okay, so it shouldn't have taken ten years. it should have taken much less, and it did, but if that minute and ten seconds amuses you, okay, fine. and then there are people who will never be able to sit through "n-lite" - it's 23 minutes long. they would rather have a minute and ten seconds of something that'll make them laugh. the point is that each piece, for what it is supposed to do, achieves a certain level of entertainment success.

dm: if you don't rank your pieces, what differentiation do you make between live work, synclavier work, and some of the work being done to fund this so called "more serious"music?

fz: well, if I had never done any rock and roll, I wouldn't have a synclavier. it's as simple as that. I mean, l earn my living by making rock and roll records. but I didn't set out to do rock and roll just so I could spend my sunset years frying my room with a high radiation source.
_________________________________________________________________________

matt groening, don menn and fz, 1992. the mother of all interviews (part 2)

interviews and articles

_________________
"bit of nostalgia for the old folks."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:51 pm
Posts: 354
Funny to see how the discussion finally went into some "yes or no" kind of cathegorising, instead of talking about (comparing, explaining, discussing, questioning, debating) music.

:-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 6:16 am
Posts: 553
Location: Royal Wootton Bassett
downer mydnyte wrote:
I think it's obvious that The Grand Wazoo is serious. The definition of serious in this discussion is also debatable. I don't think Zappa was being serious when he used the term "serious music". Personally,I don't take CP3 (in it's entirety) nearly as seriously as I take even 3 minutes of Blessed Relief.

.


Oh yeah I suppose. I was sort of asking if others felt it was serious due to tone AND due to musical ideals.The latter for me a definite. I didn't understand if the OP meant the term SERIOUS MUSIC to just be classical or whatever. Take for example an instrumental version of Greggary Peccary, would that be classed as serious? The BBC Proms think so!

I would rank his guitar solos as some of his most serious work too, the atmosphere, what they achieve, how I feel when I listen to them.

And then something like Filthy Habits from Sleep Dirt/Lather. That to me sounds like pure heavy, lamenting seriousness. ;)

_________________
Image

Trendmonger wrote:
...and but also


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4366
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
I do think that even Zapps himself distinguished between pieces which he considered to be for "mass" consumption and the projects which he knew had very little commercial potential and that the latter could be described as "serious".
Can pieces of music which Zappa himself described as "stupid" be "serious" e.g. Dinah Moe Humm?

_________________
"Secluded from mankind by his exalted dignity, the truth is concealed from his knowledge; he can see only with their eyes, he hears nothing but their misrepresentations."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 5900
Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
With Dinah Mo Hum, if you put the puerile plot of the story aside, it is a very well told story. Even in that song there are too many chords for most songwriters. It's actually a fairly rich combination of riffs. He had a way of making it sound simple when it really wasn't. If you analyse the harmonic and melodic ideas in DMH and how they flow together they may not be individually too deep but the overall work is quite a piece of architecture.

I think he called it stupid in frustration out of people constantly asking him to play it for it's bawdy appeal rather than the way he must have originally felt about it himself. But he was a walking contradiction. He complained about that side of things at the same time as encouraging it.

Like Cal said above, he worked at his music all the time - he had a pretty damn serious dedication towards everything he produced. Dissecting his work and trying to categorise bits and pieces into serious and not serious and so on is missing the point. Frank Zappa was a serious composer full stop.

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4366
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
An interesting argument that I can follow. Thank you.
One caveat however - doesn't that really make this entire thread redundant? Aren't we really discussing Zappa's best music (again)?

_________________
"Secluded from mankind by his exalted dignity, the truth is concealed from his knowledge; he can see only with their eyes, he hears nothing but their misrepresentations."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 5900
Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
The thread title has the word best in it. If the question was what is your favourite orchestral/classical ensemble work, then yes, it's been done before. But, as has been pointed out many times: FZ fans like to talk about FZ, so why not?

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4366
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
Of course, you're right and I'm being picky.

On a side note, it's my impression that, in his earlier releases, Zappa tended to mix his "classical"/orchestral compositions with rock/country/jazz compositions more. After Läther, he generally seems to have imposed a stricter division , so that rather than mixing the "popular" with the "classical", he would release e.g. the LSO album, SUAPYG, TOU etc. I wonder what led him to make this decision?
I actually prefer a release like 200 Motels (even though it sounds like they're playing in a soggy toilet roll), where, for instance, "Mystery Roach" is followed by "Dance of the Rock & Roll Interviewers". But perhaps that's just my (woefully uninformed) taste.

_________________
"Secluded from mankind by his exalted dignity, the truth is concealed from his knowledge; he can see only with their eyes, he hears nothing but their misrepresentations."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1952
Caputh wrote:
But perhaps that's just my (woefully uninformed) taste.


Yours and Zappa's. Mine, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:41 am
Posts: 399
Location: Centerville, Norway
Check out these discussions if you're interested in Zappa's scored compositions ("serious music") --

http://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=23695

http://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=27563

_________________
If I'm not alone... How long have I been asleep?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Voodoo_Butter and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group