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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:03 am 
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duchamp wrote:
It's kind of funny to think that JP seems to have more influence for selling new releases than the ZFT does. Perhaps they should hire him as their new marketing manager.

marcel wrote:
It's kind of funny to think that JLP seems to have more influence for selling new releases than the ZFT does. Perhaps Dweezil should hire him as his new violin player.

Fixed!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:19 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
BUT - when you hit the torrents and download it - YOU are contributing to the masses of people who are not buying by entering the pool of downloaders... unless you are turning off any kind up upload altogether.


There is no victimless crime, as they say. All very nicely done.

Oh, btw, the Uncle Meat Project Object has been cancelled as too many people thought it okay to torrent RT2...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:28 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Phlakaton wrote:
BUT - when you hit the torrents and download it - YOU are contributing to the masses of people who are not buying by entering the pool of downloaders... unless you are turning off any kind up upload altogether.


There is no victimless crime, as they say. All very nicely done.

Oh, btw, the Uncle Meat Project Object has been cancelled as too many people thought it okay to torrent RT2...


From what i can see most people who downloaded the torrent purchased the CD as well, the zft are missing out on sales because of the way they operate, i am someone who used to buy every album as it came out from 1984-1993, but when the new albums become mail order only i stopped buying them, i cannot justify that kind of cost let alone the shipping costs, my brother buys them i hear them from him, but i don't understand why they are stubborn about selling these albums as a download... and until they do as far as i can see they are missing out on sales :-(

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:55 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
duchamp wrote:
It's kind of funny to think that JP seems to have more influence for selling new releases than the ZFT does. Perhaps they should hire him as their new marketing manager.

marcel wrote:
It's kind of funny to think that JLP seems to have more influence for selling new releases than the ZFT does. Perhaps Dweezil should hire him as his new violin player.

Fixed!


Touché my friend, well played.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:32 am 
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mistrijah wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Phlakaton wrote:
BUT - when you hit the torrents and download it - YOU are contributing to the masses of people who are not buying by entering the pool of downloaders... unless you are turning off any kind up upload altogether.


There is no victimless crime, as they say. All very nicely done.

Oh, btw, the Uncle Meat Project Object has been cancelled as too many people thought it okay to torrent RT2...


From what i can see most people who downloaded the torrent purchased the CD as well, the zft are missing out on sales because of the way they operate, i am someone who used to buy every album as it came out from 1984-1993, but when the new albums become mail order only i stopped buying them, i cannot justify that kind of cost let alone the shipping costs, my brother buys them i hear them from him, but i don't understand why they are stubborn about selling these albums as a download... and until they do as far as i can see they are missing out on sales :-(


If you were in Brazil or Chile or something ya may have a point. But London? Euro's have an option to buy over there, no? Anyway, the ZFT is what it is and can do what they want, it gives no one a license to steal. And if ya do, just admit it: I STOLE IT! Wheeeeee!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:35 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
BUT - when you hit the torrents and download it - YOU are contributing to the masses of people who are not buying by entering the pool of downloaders... unless you are turning off any kind up upload altogether.

It seem sto me that this "download-crime" grown up to be a real myth, that REALLY separetes the TRUE guys from the THIEFS.

I see it differently: years and decades ago we felt free to borrow an album to some friends, to copy an album to a (few) friend(s), to listen to it and record from a radio broadcast. In public libraries there are books that you can borrow for free, you can borrow albums for free.

Was it / is it theft? No. Was it against the artist? Not really: it gained them popularity - just like any TV or radio broadcast.

If we think of the teenage masses who do not even think of buying albums but downloiading them: okay, it's a valid question. But as for Frank Zappa (Pink Floyd, whatever): the fans will ALWAYS buy the album (if they afford it), and listening to it in the radio or watching it on TV, on Youtube will only bring us closer to the real releases (yes: I WILL buy Road Tapes 2. mostly because Sydney '73 boot is my very favorite!).

So: this "them or us", "good guy - bad guy" game can be played for a few years, but it will only make us enemies: that is totally unneccessary. OF COURSE we will give albums and copies to friends, of course we will download things - and it should be similarly natural for an album to be available in lots of ways: like a NORMAL DOWNLOAD. For a reasonable price.

Is it available in stores? NO. Is it for a normal price? NO. Is it available as an official download? NO.
So: is there any RATIONAL reason for not downloading, listenning to it, or showing-sending it to a friend? (The thing that really hurts me that the way it works now [ordering] is simply not suitable for just buying and giving an album to anyone as a (christmas) present: because it IS NOT AVAILABLE in stores - thus you cannot even suggest to anyone: "go and buy it: it's fantastic!")

With the present disctribution system these albums will only be available for hardcore fans - and they (we) will buy it anyway. The message behind this system: "who cares about the rest of the world?" So: with this "message" no one should blame the fanatic downloaders...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:35 am 
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Well Balint: You might sometimes find an LP with original anti-piracy covers, that have a picture of a casette tape in a red circle with a big red stripe through it, saying "home copying is a theft." People have always been trying to get their music for free, whether sneaking into concerts or taping it off the radio.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:32 am 
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I am listening to Road Tapes II right now and i live in The Netherlands :smoke:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:15 am 
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Only real hardcore Zappa fans will buy the product.
It's always been that way. There's really no market for
Zappa music in 2013 anyway. We all know that.
Lamborghinis are hand made. The ZFT don't do downloads.
Whatever.
If everyone really cared about "the composer's intent" then
we would just all have to forget about him. Since he didn't
want to be remembered anyway.

But the ZFT should do well to remember that any "fan"
will try to get their hands on ANYTHING their beloved
artist does. Anyway possible. That's just fans being fans.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:41 am 
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Well I bought 2 copies. 1 to play 1 to hold till I get old...and at 60 - that aint too far off anyway. Maybe that kinda makes up for one of the downloaders. Maybe just maybe they might be temped to purchase the real thing...truth be told we are a dying breed - we who crave the physical artifact.

I must say the ZFT did a fine job on this one. I for one thank those involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:01 pm 
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There is a similar problem with King Crimson's Road to Red right now. There were only so many copies of that monster box set and it was pretty expensive... although when you figure the individual cost per disc - it less than $10 per.

But it popped up on torrents. Some people are going ape about the stealing. That thing is going to be hard to get down the road and people will be charging double for it is my guess. That is also a form of ripping off people and the band... but what do you do?

The old days of making a copy of a record or tape is no different than now - but its so easy to move digital all over the planet that it must be a million times worse these days.

I just try to buy when I can and support where I can. I wonder how long it will take to purge such things or if its even a possibility at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:22 pm 
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jeddy wrote:
Only real hardcore Zappa fans will buy the product.

Only real hardcore Zappa fans can buy the product - because no one else knows about it.

- Was it advertised anywhere? - NO.
- Was the setlist published anywhere, or anything about the show presented on the disc? - NO (it was seeked and shared by blogs and foriums only.)
- Was it advertised on the 200 Motels concerts? - NO (at least none of the reviews mention it)
- Was it (or RoxyBP) ready for the ZPZ tour, could anyone buy it there? - NO.
- Was it ready at the promised date? - NO.

So, thus it WILL remain the joy of the few hardcore fanatics, and that is VERY VERY SAD.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:47 pm 
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I am always shocked and amazed when people say there is not a market for Zappa albums apart from the the hardcore fans, this is so not true, lots of new listeners are discovering Zappa all the time, and will continue to do so. Universal would not have taken the whole catalogue if they were only selling to a few ageing hippies, let's get real this is big business still and Zappa could still be pulling in loads more sales if only people could buy the damn albums at a decent price and not have to wait for the postman to arrive, and then when he does you hope not to be hit by customs for more cash, its a crap business model....

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:49 pm 
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I am also someone who posts at IMWAN.com. It is a site that caters to the old ICE magazine readers. I post all Zappa info there - there are a couple of occasional Zappa fans there. To your point. This release and Roxy by Proxy - I posted them into in the "From the Vaults" forum (music recorded sometime ago now seeing the light of day or re-issues). Each time they move the post to "Collectors Corner" - that says even by the geeks who run the site - the folks who are still into the physical product - they do not consider this a release "from the vault" but rather a speciality item snuck out the back door.

We know where to get the product as we are the remaining Zappa fans. This is not something that the casual fan is going to easily find. Too bad cuz this release might just pull some other folks into our camp.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Bobby wrote:
...cuz this release might just pull some other folks into our camp.

Absolutely! A superb album for a hardcore and a newby as well - a wonderful concert, each second is to be discovered and loved! :-) Everyone should hear about it!


Last edited by balint on Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:59 pm 
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It's embarrassing to read a lot of this stuff. You act like young people are retarded or something.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:19 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
You act like young people are retarded or something.

Hm... who said that?...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Just ordered Road Tapes Venue #1, Road Tapes Venue #2 and Bat Chain Puller. Guess I'm in for a treat. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:37 pm 
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balint wrote:
brainpang wrote:
You act like young people are retarded or something.

Hm... who said that?...

People do that around here all of the time. I used to do it quite a bit, hoping that more fans = uninterrupted releases of FZ. Could be something to it, but in wanting to foster new FZ fans, oftentimes, newbies get treated to paper hats and bunting, people go too far. We meet so many people who have no idea who FZ was, that we assume that no one new will ever find FZ without being pointed in that direction (as though they are retarded).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:23 pm 
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mistrijah wrote:

I just want TO PAY for it as a download, i don't want a CD, i sure don't want to pay shipping costs either.. it's 2013 for goodness sake, this should be available via itunes....



Not just iTunes, but yeah, totally this. No desire for plastic and card, the music is all that matters.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:28 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
We meet so many people who have no idea who FZ was


I was recently having dinner with some old friends, a Zappa fanatic among them. Over the course of the evening, the subject of music inevitably came up. The Zappa fanatic of course brought up FZ and began fanaticizing about him. I was chiming in, and the friend sitting between the two of us noted our mutual fanaticism. He looked at us and said, "You guys really seem to like Zappa...I really don't know much about him. How would you categorize him?" We proceed to try and explain that Frank defied categorization, and tried to touch on the many genres of music he composed and performed. At some point I looked at my friend and said, "Wait...how would you categorize him?" I saw the look on his face and immediately knew the answer. I said, "Doody jokes, right?" He immediately replied, "Yes", and went on to say that he had been totally clueless about what us two fanatics were telling him.

This is the ongoing frustrating problem I see all the time. I'm at a loss as to how it can be overcome. I don't even know what my point is here, just venting I guess. It was your comment above, Arkie.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:47 pm 
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I know its just further from the Helsinki topic but I have to chuck this in ---

My son comes home from school the other night - he's in 7th grade (13 years old and a Zappa fan) - he was pissed off at his Texas History teacher. We live in Austin. His teacher was making fun of quotes during class. Not sure why. BUT - he says the first quote out of his mouth is a Zappa one - "A mind is like a parachute - it doesnt work if it isnt open."

His teacher says this is a dumb line because you could have a hole in your parachute. My son instantly calls him out and asks why he has to add a stupid alteration to the thought to make it NOT work. LMAO. I was surprised his history teacher even used that quote at all - and on top of it - why was it a lame line? I think its brilliant.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Guys, I've stated this before but I guess I'll have to again: the demand and/or market has already been assessed for current, past and present Zappa releases. And the results are, in most cases, titles from the mid '60s - the mid '90s sell much more than ZFT releases. That's why Universal have ZERO interest in selling most ZFT titles - we're talking about 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide each, TOPS...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:31 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
I know its just further from the Helsinki topic but I have to chuck this in ---

My son comes home from school the other night - he's in 7th grade (13 years old and a Zappa fan) - he was pissed off at his Texas History teacher. We live in Austin. His teacher was making fun of quotes during class. Not sure why. BUT - he says the first quote out of his mouth is a Zappa one - "A mind is like a parachute - it doesnt work if it isnt open."

His teacher says this is a dumb line because you could have a hole in your parachute. My son instantly calls him out and asks why he has to add a stupid alteration to the thought to make it NOT work. LMAO. I was surprised his history teacher even used that quote at all - and on top of it - why was it a lame line? I think its brilliant.


That "teacher" needs to be hit in the face repeatedly with a rubber mallet and dragged thru the streets with his testicles tied to the rear bumper of a 1972 Chevy pickup truck.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:59 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Guys, I've stated this before but I guess I'll have to again: the demand and/or market has already been assessed for current, past and present Zappa releases.


Yep. But it seems the brilliant marketing analysts here know better.


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