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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:32 pm 
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I've changed my opinion over the years of all of Frank's output... I didn't care that much for the material on The Lost Episodes when I first heard it, went back the other day and listened again, I see things I like in it much better now... same with Lumpy Gravy... I wasn't much into the proto-electronica of Jazz From Hell, but if I could get my hands on it again, I'd like to give it another listen... and knowing Frank's distaste for love songs I think Cruising With Reuben and the Jets was satire aimed at pop/rock of the fifties and early sixties, the era he grew up in. He adapted with each decade, roasting Angel (Punky's Whips), then bands like Scorpions ("rock you like a nincompoop!") Rewatching the New York Palladium concert last night, it looked to me like Frank and Steve pretty much invented shred as it's thought of today via Stevie's Spanking... to me Frank influenced the '80's rock sound even if it got bastardized by hair bands.... (for better or for worse see: W.A.S.P. "The Torture Never Stops" Motley Crue's references to the 'Crue sluts') And I see the mainstream metal sound and hardcore punk from that decade to be different kinds of 'heavy'. In the Palladium live show, "Dumb All Over" had a nice heavy rhythmic groove to it...


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:54 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
Whatever. I won't miss you coming out of left field. Ciao!


Bah, Humbug. Stop fucking yourself. You should have shut up while you were ahead.


Sometimes you are the biggest asshole on this forum, brainpang :P Steer clear :P

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:11 pm 
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If you use the metric of HOW OFTEN DO I ACTUALLY LISTEN TO EACH ALBUM, instead of discussing creative details, the albums are easier to rate. Using this value, my favorite FZ album ever is Roxy, followed closely by WOIFTM and then Waka Jawaka. My favorite 80's album is SATLTSADW. My least favorite is TOU. And, no offense FO, I love ya but your last on this list. And a big sorry to YS, which doesn't land in the top 5 on the listen-to scale, but seems like it should.

Anyway, I love all eras. There's lots of value in each one imo.

Easy as pie, humble or otherwise.

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Last edited by Ronny's Noomies on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:13 pm 
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I agree with that

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:25 pm 
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I rarely listen to the original "studio" albums released in the 80's (mainly YAWYI, Ship, TMFU, TOU, FZMTMOP, TF). But that's not to say I don't like the songs, I just prefer the live versions (mainly on the vocal songs)

(This whole thread has really motivated me to go pull some those cd's for a listen, particularly TOU, which I haven't heard in years.)


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:06 pm 
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brunofulax wrote:
tweezers wrote:
I have a bootleg of '80s experimentation, like 25 minutes of something called Brutality + Resolver that I really like. Anyone else have it or has heard of it?


http://www.afka.net/resolver-brutality.htm

it may be my favourite 80's FZ album. Some parts of it were released as part of Feeding The Monkies At Ma Maison album.


I thought that was true...so I admit that I didn't connect them right away. Then I did :shock:

I am certain that there are hours of these Synclavier pieces and I would love more of it.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:09 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
You had to bring Henry into this? Ugh. I've never been able to really get into Black Flag, hating Henry and all. My wife likes his stuff. She met him long ago and right now several feet above this monitor is a picture of Henry lifting up his shirt so my wife can take a picture of his back tattoo. But, I can't stand him. He's cheese through-and-through although he would have everyone believe he's all substance


Oh shit. You think Henry was the leader of Black Flag?? I would not have brought them up if I knew you thought Black Flag was Henry Rollins band. Rollins IS cheese. I don't like him, either. Black Flag was led by guitarist Greg Ginn and bass player Chuck Dukowski. Ginn wrote most of the songs and owns their label SST records. (there's a picture of Zaapa with a SST sticker on the wall behind him out there. He was paying attention). Henry was BF's 4th lead singer. Fuck Rollins. He has not much, if any, musical talent. Check out the guitar playing on My War. Never mind Henry. BF were Heavy because they were starving and harassed by law enforcement and living on top of each other, sleeping on floors. The only thing they had to look forward to was playing. That energy comes out in the music. It squashes most bands of the era. Certainly the comfy boys in Zappa's 84 band could not muster a 10th of that aggression.

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You Are You What Is KILLS it.

Actually, it's effete. But then again, so are most of the lightweight bands you listen to.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Some Greg Ginn stuff I've heard over the years has been ok. I've known SST due to Negativland.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:35 pm 
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That's cool. I wouldn't want anyone to think Rollins was a leading creative force in Black Flag.Then they might ignore a lot of startling, groundbreaking music. Not to mention the spirit to do things on your own without a major label controlling/censoring you. Of course, Negativeland did not have a good relationship with Ginn. Or U2! Greg actually wrote to The Edge and Bono to ask them to drop the law suit because it was a financial drain on SST and he never heard back from them. Of course, it was U2s record label that was suing.

Anyway, I knew what you meant about TOU. I was just sparking a little discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Ok4Bew4Hg


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:45 pm 
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OK, so in the name of a little discussion... most stuff of that BF scene had such an air of "I don't care what it sounds like". I get the aggression, the do-it-yerself stuff, punk scenes of various stripes, but could never understand music that is so indifferent to itself. Didn't BF put out like 4-5 albums in one year, just ploppin em out, I dunno. You clearly know alot more about them than I do. Feel free to set me right.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Here is something for you to check out while you debate, heavyness http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link ... re%3Dshare

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:18 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
OK, so in the name of a little discussion... most stuff of that BF scene had such an air of "I don't care what it sounds like". I get the aggression, the do-it-yerself stuff, punk scenes of various stripes, but could never understand music that is so indifferent to itself. Didn't BF put out like 4-5 albums in one year, just ploppin em out, I dunno. You clearly know alot more about them than I do. Feel free to set me right.

Black Flag was sued and not allowed to record for 2 and a half years. That's why they put out 4 albums in 1984.
I don't like all of BF's stuff. They have some cheesy songs and production/engineering, too. The sound is often pretty bad. And you'll find filler on later albums. The early stuff had no fat. That said, there is some really original, smart and uncompromising stuff. Subversive, really. Here's an instrumental. No Rollins....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLBuMi4VfaY


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:25 pm 
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the kid in the video in the previous post has more talent in his pinky finger than the entire black flag band

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:33 pm 
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The kid in the vid is a trained monkey. I'm sure his Django covers will impact music as much as Black Flag.

BF tried their best to be themselves. Think of them as you would contestants in the special olympics. They probably fucked with your smooth-jazz sensibilities, eh? Everyone can't be as talented as Spyro Gyra.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
I dunno what some people who have been the most critical of my arguments would consider as a "reality-based argument", but I guess it shall be anything but: "the 1980s bands and the 1980s records by Frank Zappa sounded slick, tame and somewhat artificial compared to the really experimental rock music." And if I try to explain why I thought the earlier stuff was more inventive, more interesting musically and had a bit more of an edge to them, you just think I don't get it. Well, if there's one thing I most objectively lack, it's the ability to understand the completist/diehard position. For me, the ideology has always been: everyone's bound to record a subpar album.


I wasn't referring to your specific song opinions, where you do make some good points. I was referring to your below quote regarding FZ eras...

Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
But FZ' music heavily mirrored the pop zeitgeist of the time. Throughout Zappa's 1966-88 career. WOIIFTM - 60s psychedelia. Over-Nite Sensation - 70s black funk and porno soundtracks. Sheik Yerbouti - disco. Steve Vai period albums - AOR/Heavy Metal. DHBIM - synth-pop. The whole Wackerman era (and some of Colaiuta era) - reggae. So if the pop music of the 80s went down the shitter, then FZ' rock music too was kind of affected.


...which I vehemently disagree with and is just plan silly.

Because while there are sparks of truth to the above criticisms, you're extremely over-generalizing.

downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
You Are You What Is KILLS it.

Actually, it's effete. But then again, so are most of the lightweight bands you listen to.


What a crock of shit. YAWYI is fucking amazing in almost every way possible.

And what "lightweight bands" are you referring to, Black Flag fan (LOL!)?!

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:38 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
brainpang wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
Whatever. I won't miss you coming out of left field. Ciao!


Bah, Humbug. Stop fucking yourself. You should have shut up while you were ahead.


Sometimes you are the biggest asshole on this forum, brainpang :P Steer clear :P


Oh yes, channel that inner Breivik...


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:17 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Oh yes, channel that inner Breivik...

Says the Burzum fan who wrote this sensitive post in response to the Utøya massacre --

http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9955&hilit=brainpang+breivik+burzum&start=3500#p509334

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe01.shtml

But of course - calling brainpang an asshole when he deserves it is clearly equal to killing 70 innocent children.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:17 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
The kid in the vid is a trained monkey. I'm sure his Django covers will impact music as much as Black Flag.

BF tried their best to be themselves. Think of them as you would contestants in the special olympics. They probably fucked with your smooth-jazz sensibilities, eh? Everyone can't be as talented as Spyro Gyra.


Hey dumm ass let me know when you have ever seen or heard any one especially at that age play like that,, go ahead post the video.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:36 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Oh yes, channel that inner Breivik...

Says the Burzum fan who wrote this sensitive post in response to the Utøya massacre --

http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9955&hilit=brainpang+breivik+burzum&start=3500#p509334

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe01.shtml

But of course - calling brainpang an asshole when he deserves it is clearly equal to killing 70 innocent children.


Fan? About as much as I am of an asthmatic pedophile. Want some links with the gory details? Of course I am just making fun off your silly outrage and preposterous sense of order, in the blackest method surely -- God Forbid someone cast an aside on a bulletin board.
Ah, to think we once were friendly.


Last edited by brainpang on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:20 am 
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What do you mean skip your brei vik? Does it mean anything? I didn't know you were a comedian. Are you funny?

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:54 am 
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BACK ON TOPIC:

Do you prefer how the early 80's output came about with Drowning Witch, TOU and TMFU or would you have rather have had Chalk Pie and maybe other releases? Is there much from the 82 band lurking out there in the vaults?

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:32 am 
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I would've had Chalk Pie personally. Personally I am not over the moon for the '82 band disc on YCDTOSA 5. Chalk Pie in its bootleg form is a much better representation of the Vai-Mars-Thunes-Wackerman band. Speaking of YCDTOSA series, if FZ' goal was to disprove the notion that his subsequent bands to the earliest lineups sucked, I don't think that by a) adding that horrible kick drum sample to Helsinki concert or b) releasing far far too much '84 band were valid ways to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:45 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
BACK ON TOPIC:

Do you prefer how the early 80's output came about with Drowning Witch, TOU and TMFU or would you have rather have had Chalk Pie and maybe other releases?


My main thought is it's great that we have all of the above.

Quote:
Is there much from the 82 band lurking out there in the vaults?


Don't know, my guess is that there would mainly be different mixes and edits of the songs we have. Some of the 81/82 band members like Thunes and Martin didn't work much with FZ in the studio so their performances usually came from live tapes.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:30 am 
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The Chalk Pie album should be this year's AAAFNRAA bundle.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:12 am 
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tiboudre wrote:
The Chalk Pie album should be this year's AAAFNRAA bundle.


Perhaps. I'm curious if it exists in the vault.


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