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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:49 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
tiboudre wrote:
The Chalk Pie album should be this year's AAAFNRAA bundle.


Perhaps. I'm curious if it exists in the vault.

Finer Moments was in the vault and who knew anything about that album?

I don't use iTunes so I'd prefer Chalk Pie to be released on proper, remastered cd.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:58 am 
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unclemeat69 wrote:
Finer Moments was in the vault and who knew anything about that album?


Some things that we don't have are in the vault, that doesn't mean that every thing we do have is in the vault. For instance, the Capitol stereo Lumpy Gravy apparently wasn't in there when they put together Lumpy Money.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:36 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
unclemeat69 wrote:
Finer Moments was in the vault and who knew anything about that album?


Some things that we don't have are in the vault, that doesn't mean that every thing we do have is in the vault. For instance, the Capitol stereo Lumpy Gravy apparently wasn't in there when they put together Lumpy Money.

LG was back in 1967 and I don't know how obsessive FZ was about storing every little piece of recording he ever made at that time.
Besides that, he had moved to his later home around that time so some of his tapes might have gone missing during the move.
Making an incredibly big assumption: given the fact that FZ had several (I believe three) extensive archives with all (or most?) of his albums in there as well as a large number of his concerts fully recorded as band recordings and isolated guitarsolos, I think Chalk Pie must be in there somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:52 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
You had to bring Henry into this? Ugh. I've never been able to really get into Black Flag, hating Henry and all. My wife likes his stuff. She met him long ago and right now several feet above this monitor is a picture of Henry lifting up his shirt so my wife can take a picture of his back tattoo. But, I can't stand him. He's cheese through-and-through although he would have everyone believe he's all substance


Oh shit. You think Henry was the leader of Black Flag?? I would not have brought them up if I knew you thought Black Flag was Henry Rollins band. Rollins IS cheese. I don't like him, either. Black Flag was led by guitarist Greg Ginn and bass player Chuck Dukowski. Ginn wrote most of the songs and owns their label SST records. (there's a picture of Zaapa with a SST sticker on the wall behind him out there. He was paying attention). Henry was BF's 4th lead singer. Fuck Rollins. He has not much, if any, musical talent. Check out the guitar playing on My War. Never mind Henry. BF were Heavy because they were starving and harassed by law enforcement and living on top of each other, sleeping on floors. The only thing they had to look forward to was playing. That energy comes out in the music. It squashes most bands of the era. Certainly the comfy boys in Zappa's 84 band could not muster a 10th of that aggression.

Disco Boy wrote:
You Are You What Is KILLS it.

Actually, it's effete. But then again, so are most of the lightweight bands you listen to.


Not that it really matters, but...

I don't think Rollins would really put himself forward as a musical genius, but what he has in abundance is enthusiasm for MUSIC in general.
He's also a workaholic polymath. He might not be great at anything,but I respect the fact that he has done a ton of stuff in many different fields. I don't agree with all his political stuff, mainly cause it's from an American perspective, so I'm not best-placed to comment..

I know he has respect for FZs work, and I think shared the same work ethic.

BF weren't my cup of tea.

Cheesy? He just gets a lot of exposure on all these talking-heads shows.
I would say his influence on music of the heavier kind has ultimately been more than Ginn's. Anselmo practically based his entire existence on him. Etc

Blah blah blah ad infinitum


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:09 am 
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I also like Rollins as a talker, writer and music fan more than as a singer or songwriter.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:43 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:25 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
You Are You What Is KILLS it.

Actually, it's effete. But then again, so are most of the lightweight bands you listen to.


What a crock of shit. YAWYI is fucking amazing in almost every way possible.

And what "lightweight bands" are you referring to, Black Flag fan (LOL!)?!


To be fair, it's quite likely that downer mydnyte's interests as far as 80s music goes reside in the noisier and more underground end of rock music. For fans of such musics it's quite likely that Rush may appear as mere lightweight farts!

At the risk of rendering another "over-generalisation", amongst Zappa/Mothers listeners I can definitely detect a schism between fans of the more elitist rock music forms vs the punters for more conventional rock stylings. The early Mothers albums were some of the most progressive and avant-garde music ever done. However, opinions on WOIIFTM may vary. Someone on Amazon put down WOIIFTM for Zappa not playing any guitar solos on it. Yet one really ardent fan of WOIIFTM has derided the music subsequent to early MOI demise as "unlistenable prog-jazz wank with third-grade toilet humour". His preference for music? "Real weirdness" such as The Residents! Perhaps also Faust (the German Krautrock group). The divorce between musical sensibilities is there.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:59 am 
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Could you lot just quit it with the whole flame war spreading? It's like Isaac and Zombie all over again. Get a nice battle thread and stick to it, please.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:27 am 
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Listened to Drowning Witch from YCDTOSA Vol 3 today --- that track kicks so much ass. The solo is hot shit too.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:10 pm 
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here ya go DM, 1971 the tune is Downer, you can use it for a theme song, extra credit if you name the bass player,
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... GU&cad=rja

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Zappa was way ahead of his time. By 1983 he had this idea for distribution and our listening pleasure.

http://www.zappa.com/whatsnew/news/FZ-Proposal/

He envisioned digital live streaming before we knew what it was! He liked the idea so much he copyrighted it. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:01 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Zappa was way ahead of his time. By 1983 he had this idea for distribution and our listening pleasure.

http://www.zappa.com/whatsnew/news/FZ-Proposal/

He envisioned digital live streaming before we knew what it was! He liked the idea so much he copyrighted it. 8)

^ Read this link ^ I think you'll be surprised! :wink: It was new to me, is it old news to y'all? :?:

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:05 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Zappa was way ahead of his time. By 1983 he had this idea for distribution and our listening pleasure.

http://www.zappa.com/whatsnew/news/FZ-Proposal/

He envisioned digital live streaming before we knew what it was! He liked the idea so much he copyrighted it. 8)

You can't copyright ideas, at the most you can patent it.
Patents are about ideas, copyright is about details in creative expression (2 very different things).


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:09 pm 
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unclemeat69 wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Zappa was way ahead of his time. By 1983 he had this idea for distribution and our listening pleasure.

http://www.zappa.com/whatsnew/news/FZ-Proposal/

He envisioned digital live streaming before we knew what it was! He liked the idea so much he copyrighted it. 8)

You can't copyright ideas, at the most you can patent it.
Patents are about ideas, copyright is about details in creative expression (2 very different things).

I thought it was very interesting that FZ tried to copyright his ideas! That was sorta the point of me posting this. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:13 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
unclemeat69 wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Zappa was way ahead of his time. By 1983 he had this idea for distribution and our listening pleasure.

http://www.zappa.com/whatsnew/news/FZ-Proposal/

He envisioned digital live streaming before we knew what it was! He liked the idea so much he copyrighted it. 8)

You can't copyright ideas, at the most you can patent it.
Patents are about ideas, copyright is about details in creative expression (2 very different things).

I thought it was very interesting that FZ tried to copyright his ideas! That was sorta the point of me posting this. :wink:

He had copyright on the text of that document, not on the idea described in that document.
Nice that he used the term hacker in the (IMO) right way, namely as great programmer (very narrow definition but this is from the time right before hackers were connected to cracking computer systems).


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:27 pm 
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unclemeat69 wrote:
He had copyright on the text of that document, not on the idea described in that document.
Nice that he used the term hacker in the (IMO) right way, namely as great programmer (very narrow definition but this is from the time right before hackers were connected to cracking computer systems).

Oh, I get it, d'oh! I didn't know about the hacker thing back then as I've only recently (5yrs or so) taught meself how to use these confounded computers, much less hack or program one. Learn something new everyday. That's cool to me! 8) :)

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:40 am 
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BBP wrote:
Could you lot just quit it with the whole flame war spreading? It's like Isaac and Zombie all over again. Get a nice battle thread and stick to it, please.


I wonder if there are flame wars on the Secular Buddhist bulletin board?
http://secularbuddhism.org/forum/


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:30 am 
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This thread has reminded me that I'm lacking in 80's Zappa. Especially, the early 80's. Time to place an order today.

I have a topic for discussion. Do you find it harder to turn people on to Zappa with the 80's albums? Here's the reason I ask.

I'm currently turning my 14 year old son on to Zappa's music. He's a guitar player, and his top two favorite bands are Kiss and Megadeth. I am well aware that the irony of those two bands together could start another thread.

Everything through the 70's was easy for him to grasp. He even loves The Grand Wazoo!

I found that the early Mothers were a little harder for him to get, but he likes a lot of it.

I have had to work a lot harder to get him to appreciate the 80's albums. Once I explained the political and religious mixture that was happening in the late 80's, he started to get it. He especially likes Why Don't You Like Me, after I explained the Jackson family history a bit. He still doesn't get the Purple Haze, Sunshine Of Your Love, and Stairway To Heaven covers. I guess if you aren't old enough to have heard those songs hundreds of times, you just don't get it?

As I said, I'm lacking in early 80's Zappa at the moment. But, he has seen The Torture Never Stops DVD several times.

Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:44 am 
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Get them all! Tastes run diverse out here and getting advice on that is something I wouldn't recommend. 80s Zappa is harder on the noggin than Cosmik Debris but it's still awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:20 am 
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Baby Take Your Teeth Out and Goblin Girl are harder on the noggin than Cosmik Debris? I don't follow.

Philostopher wrote:
Any thoughts?

Perhaps he doesn't "get" 80s Zappa because it's such a disappointment after hearing 70s Zappa.
Better to hear Bongo Fury twice than TMFU once. Who can sustain such a high level of greatness for 3 straight decades? Quality is bound to drop here and there. After giving so much incredible music to the world, Zappa deserves to be able to put out some overlong,bland, blackface minstrel parody like Thing Fish. But that doesn't mean we should force ourselves to sit through it twice.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:05 am 
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The taste of 14-18 year olds is the final verdict in the world of rock, as Philostopher's son has proved.

Now let the Buddhist flame war begin!

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:50 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Baby Take Your Teeth Out and Goblin Girl are harder on the noggin than Cosmik Debris? I don't follow.


Cosmik Debris, no matter who I played it to, is always instantly liked. Baby Take Your Teeth Out is something I still don't get although I relish the title. Goblin Girl depends on the version. It sounds great on HIOS? but is terrible on the bad YAWYI releases.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:12 pm 
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BBP wrote:
Get them all! Tastes run diverse out here and getting advice on that is something I wouldn't recommend. 80s Zappa is harder on the noggin than Cosmik Debris but it's still awesome.


I've heard them all, and have owned them in one form or another over the years. I was just generalizing about the state of my current collection. I'm lacking in early 80's at the moment, and my comment was about how much harder it is to get people who aren't familiar with Frank's music into the late 80's output.

Young people are familiar to the late 60's/early 70's political happenings more so than the the Reagan/Bush years. They learn it in history now. So, I had to explain the late 80's songs to him more than the earlier shit.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:21 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
The taste of 14-18 year olds is the final verdict in the world of rock, as Philostopher's son has proved.

Now let the Buddhist flame war begin!

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I never claimed that my son's opinion was the be all, end all of the music industry. I was merely relaying my experiences with how he perceived Zappa's music as I was introducing it to him.

I was hoping to find out how other people experienced turning people on to Zappa, and whether 80's Zappa would be a place that you start.

Why are we starting a war?


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Goblin Girl on HIOS has its speed corrected, but only one problem: Chad Wackerman's overdub. Recorded amidst the tampering with classic 60s albums like WOIIFTM, Lumpy Gravy (thankfully canned until Disc 2 of Lumpy Money) and CWRATJ.

Why did FZ decline as a rocker in the 80s? He gave up the edge in return for perfectionism and precision. Not only did he expect his musicians to be able to play in all sort of styles, not only did he favour Tommy Mars' technological replication of brass textures in lieu of Bruce Fowler tackling all sorts of challenges each night with the altissimo range of his trombone, he also wanted his guitar arrangements to be performed by more schooled guitarists like Steve Vai. Frank comments in the Downbeat '83 interview as per why he reduced the guitar parts he played himself:

Quote:
I used to play more parts in the band, but I was never really accurate at it. I was a very unreliable parts player because I've always been sloppy. I wouldn't sit there and practice for months on end. I mean, there are guys who practice for life. I ain't got time for it. I got a few other things I have to take care of. I have to run the business of what I do. I can't sit there and devote myself to just playing really fast scales.


Frank thought he was sloppy and unreliable as a guitarist. Sure, Steve Vai could nail the tough parts, but somehow, something was lost when FZ stopped supplying rhythm and parts playing. Of course if you have a rhythm section that can play all styles from reggae to heavy metal, plus a stunt guitarist that can play really hard parts, but who is a bit flashy as a soloist, it's bound to sound a bit lame compared to the George Duke funking it out on his keyboards supported by the confident funky-jazzy rhythm section and FZ taking front and centre stage on his guitar at mostly all times.

Zoot Allures was the the last album where FZ played all guitars. Sleep Dirt almost as well, but it has Bird Legs on one track. ZINY was the last album where FZ was the dominant guitarist (aside a bit of Ray White on rhythm). Sheik Yerbouti saw Frank sharing guitar parts with Adrian (I've heard rumours that someone was hired by Frank to supply the more punk/new-wave kind of sound, but I suspect it's just that, a rumour), Joe's Garage saw Warren Cuccurollo as the stunt guitarist with Frank only using his solos. And after that it was Steve Vai of course.

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