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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:31 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Baby Take Your Teeth Out and Goblin Girl are harder on the noggin than Cosmik Debris? I don't follow.

Philostopher wrote:
Any thoughts?

Perhaps he doesn't "get" 80s Zappa because it's such a disappointment after hearing 70s Zappa.
Better to hear Bongo Fury twice than TMFU once. Who can sustain such a high level of greatness for 3 straight decades? Quality is bound to drop here and there. After giving so much incredible music to the world, Zappa deserves to be able to put out some overlong,bland, blackface minstrel parody like Thing Fish. But that doesn't mean we should force ourselves to sit through it twice.


I thought of that too. But, I'm only lacking in early 80's Zappa. He didn't hear this music in chronological order. I played Lather for him first, and then I just jumped around in the catalog. Excluding, the early 80's stuff. Which we have already determined, my collection is lacking.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:53 pm 
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Philostopher wrote:
I never claimed that my son's opinion was the be all, end all of the music industry. I was merely relaying my experiences with how he perceived Zappa's music as I was introducing it to him.

I was hoping to find out how other people experienced turning people on to Zappa, and whether 80's Zappa would be a place that you start.

Why are we starting a war?

Sorry, Philostopher - I neither meant to offend you nor start a war. With a little tongue in cheek I'm earnest about teenagers' grasp of the rock genre and respect your son's judgment, because he's in an age where music is important and meaningful in a way adults often forget.

The other thing is ironic, as an aside referring to a previous question here about the possibilities of flame wars on a forum for Secular Buddhists, which instantly made me think of the gruesome images Buddhists have made of their Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Philostopher wrote:
He's a guitar player, and his top two favorite bands are Kiss and Megadeth.
Any thoughts?

Good taste, so I assume he likes guitar work. Get him or introduce him to Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar and Them Or Us. Great guitar work obviously.

I think the song Drowning Witch will be right up his alley too and teenage prostitute, both from SATLTSADW.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Hate to think of Frank being insecure about his guitar playing... can imagine Steve Vai does that to people, make their heads hang in shame. Still when I heard FZ soloing on that '88 sound check tape, he's the best to me. He's got the heart and the ear to move, rather than fast fingers to squiggle.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Definitely, Frank to me is the best guitarist I have ever heard. I worship people like Mustaine, Vai, Schuldiner and Tipton but Zappa moves me, him noodling on the guitar does something to me, it can be harsh and snarling but beautiful. And he knows he is cool doing it but 100% focused. Just look at the Muffin Man solo from Baby Snakes and the 88 Hot Plate Heaven.

What a guy.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:42 pm 
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I got into Zappa through the 80's stuff (YAWYI,TOU, and the relevant YCDTOS) because I was a rabid Vai fan (thanks Steve!).
To me, the music was interesting, funny, technically great, and it had .....something....that other music didn't have.
Of course, I went backwards, and forwards, to discover the rest, most of which I love.
But the 80's stuff hooked me, and that was in the early 90's.

Trying to get people, de novo, into FZ I would probably aim for the SUNPYG and Wazoo-type music to do the job.. I'm not sure that some of the humour transcends all boundaries as effectively as the pure music does. The humour is a bit more idiosyncratic, and to an extent , relies on the listener being sympathetic to FZ's points of reference.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:21 pm 
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BBP wrote:
can imagine Steve Vai does that to people, make their heads hang in shame.

You've gotta be a real geek, or just unaware of a huge bulk of guitar music, to hang your head in shame upon hearing the vapid, vacuous noodling of a melody-challenged guitar stroker like Steve Vai. If Vai's guitar playing makes some aspiring guitarist ashamed then they should consider being a WalMart greeter instead of a guitar player. Vai's a nice guy, though. And that's usually worth more than being a great guitar player.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:05 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
I never claimed that my son's opinion was the be all, end all of the music industry. I was merely relaying my experiences with how he perceived Zappa's music as I was introducing it to him.

I was hoping to find out how other people experienced turning people on to Zappa, and whether 80's Zappa would be a place that you start.

Why are we starting a war?

Sorry, Philostopher - I neither meant to offend you nor start a war. With a little tongue in cheek I'm earnest about teenagers' grasp of the rock genre and respect your son's judgment, because he's in an age where music is important and meaningful in a way adults often forget.

The other thing is ironic, as an aside referring to a previous question here about the possibilities of flame wars on a forum for Secular Buddhists, which instantly made me think of the gruesome images Buddhists have made of their Hell.


You didn't offend me. I was being somewhat sarcastic, and I didn't pick up on the Buddhist flame war deal. Sorry if I came off as being confrontational. Was definitely not my intention, as I am the one that asked for people's input.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:31 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
He's a guitar player, and his top two favorite bands are Kiss and Megadeth.
Any thoughts?

Good taste, so I assume he likes guitar work. Get him or introduce him to Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar and Them Or Us. Great guitar work obviously.

I think the song Drowning Witch will be right up his alley too and teenage prostitute, both from SATLTSADW.


That's funny. Shut Up and Play Your Guitar and Them Or Us are the 2 early 80's albums that I have. They are the Ryko versions though. I think I will make Ship Arriving part of my order tonight. I was also thinking of getting You Are What You Is and London Symphony. That will probably consume my $50 spending limit for this order.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Quilt wrote:
I got into Zappa through the 80's stuff (YAWYI,TOU, and the relevant YCDTOS) because I was a rabid Vai fan (thanks Steve!).
To me, the music was interesting, funny, technically great, and it had .....something....that other music didn't have.
Of course, I went backwards, and forwards, to discover the rest, most of which I love.
But the 80's stuff hooked me, and that was in the early 90's.

Trying to get people, de novo, into FZ I would probably aim for the SUNPYG and Wazoo-type music to do the job.. I'm not sure that some of the humour transcends all boundaries as effectively as the pure music does. The humour is a bit more idiosyncratic, and to an extent , relies on the listener being sympathetic to FZ's points of reference.


I got into Zappa in 1979 through Joe's Garage at the age of thirteen.

I would not use Wazoo type music to introduce anyone from a rock-pop background. Great for someone from a jazz background though.

100% agree with the last sentence of your post.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:27 pm 
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When it comes to trying to turn people on to Zappa, no particular album or era has ever fared better for me than any other; the people I know just seem to love it or hate it :| (and most choose immediate and unshakable disdain :cry: ) It's even rarer for me to find somebody that actually gets it, or at least shows that they get it.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Buckalos wrote:
When it comes to trying to turn people on to Zappa, no particular album or era has ever fared better for me than any other; the people I know just seem to love it or hate it :| (and most choose immediate and unshakable disdain :cry: ) It's even rarer for me to find somebody that actually gets it, or at least shows that they get it.

Yep, it's Them or Us. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Buckalos wrote:
When it comes to trying to turn people on to Zappa, no particular album or era has ever fared better for me than any other; the people I know just seem to love it or hate it :| (and most choose immediate and unshakable disdain :cry: ) It's even rarer for me to find somebody that actually gets it, or at least shows that they get it.


Try doing it here in the land of the Republican Southern Baptists.

:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Decided on Ship Arriving, Guitar, and You Are What You Is. Ship Arriving comes in Auto Rip form, so I'm listening to it now.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Philostopher wrote:
Decided on Ship Arriving, Guitar, and You Are What You Is. Ship Arriving comes in Auto Rip form, so I'm listening to it now.

NO NOT NOW!
Maybe later. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:52 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
Decided on Ship Arriving, Guitar, and You Are What You Is. Ship Arriving comes in Auto Rip form, so I'm listening to it now.

NO NOT NOW!
Maybe later. 8)


That one played before I read your post, but funny none the less. Enjoyed this one too.

:)

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Yep, it's Them or Us. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Philostopher wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Philostopher wrote:
Decided on Ship Arriving, Guitar, and You Are What You Is. Ship Arriving comes in Auto Rip form, so I'm listening to it now.

NO NOT NOW!
Maybe later. 8)


That one played before I read your post, but funny none the less. Enjoyed this one too.

:)

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Yep, it's Them or Us. :wink:

Welcome to the Zappa forum Philo. Have fun, be kind to other mothers and if your on your bike tonight, wear white. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:38 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BBP wrote:
can imagine Steve Vai does that to people, make their heads hang in shame.

You've gotta be a real geek, or just unaware of a huge bulk of guitar music, to hang your head in shame upon hearing the vapid, vacuous noodling of a melody-challenged guitar stroker like Steve Vai. If Vai's guitar playing makes some aspiring guitarist ashamed then they should consider being a WalMart greeter instead of a guitar player. Vai's a nice guy, though. And that's usually worth more than being a great guitar player.


Vai's most definitely better than most of the "guitar greats" in the sense of melody. I very much liked the orchestral work he did 'n all. Combined with his superior chops, I can imagine he could make anyone feel insecure about his own playing, unlike, say, Yngwie Malmsteen who just makes me happy I'm not a guy. Me I stopped playing guitar 'cos I can't hold them without being in pain in ten minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:14 am 
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Jaminbenb wrote:
Tinsletown Rebellion....


Is the correct answer




.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:47 am 
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BBP wrote:
Me I stopped playing guitar 'cos I can't hold them without being in pain in ten minutes.


Funny, when I hold a guitar, everyone else is in pain within ten minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:35 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BBP wrote:
can imagine Steve Vai does that to people, make their heads hang in shame.

You've gotta be a real geek, or just unaware of a huge bulk of guitar music, to hang your head in shame upon hearing the vapid, vacuous noodling of a melody-challenged guitar stroker like Steve Vai. If Vai's guitar playing makes some aspiring guitarist ashamed then they should consider being a WalMart greeter instead of a guitar player. Vai's a nice guy, though. And that's usually worth more than being a great guitar player.

Some folks think "Master Musician", others (me, for example) won't go that far and say "Guitar Performance Master". Its hard to argue against "Technical Guitar Master" and most will admit that Vai is Overall Great or at least Good, so please, for those who like to follow the trail, how did you get to..

"melody-challenged guitar stroker"

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:30 am 
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I'll go further; the reference to SV's musical talent is absurd , the man is a talented musician, Berkly music school grad, has the expertise to transcribe written music to different instruments and by the way is an accomplished guitar player in his own right . because you do not like his playing has nothing to do with his abilities . These kind of arguments are similar to the mid sixties debate as to who is the heaviest, or the fastest or the best. all of which are boring.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:36 am 
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Vai did a terrific job transcribing FZ's solos and playing the notated parts in the instrumentals the 81/82 band played. I haven't been a fan of his solo work but I've only heard a little of it.


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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:34 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BBP wrote:
can imagine Steve Vai does that to people, make their heads hang in shame.

You've gotta be a real geek, or just unaware of a huge bulk of guitar music, to hang your head in shame upon hearing the vapid, vacuous noodling of a melody-challenged guitar stroker like Steve Vai. If Vai's guitar playing makes some aspiring guitarist ashamed then they should consider being a WalMart greeter instead of a guitar player. Vai's a nice guy, though. And that's usually worth more than being a great guitar player.


Well, there you go.

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Last edited by calvin2hikers on Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 80's Zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 am 
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Vai - arguably the most useful guitarist for Zappa. However, it may very well be Keneally whose efforts at musical creativity are more admirable.

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