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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:45 am 
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I am a huge fan. I also love bootlegs. I dont pay for them and I dont take money for them. Suck it.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:55 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Shrewnews wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
For example I have never bought one of those bootleg movies sold by ladies that would be better off preparing won ton on in a local noodle shop, "five dallah', five dallah".


Go to hell, you racist piece of shit.


just because someone imitates an accent it doesn't make them racist, you dumbbell.


HOLY SHIT!!!!! This must be the first time jaypfunk defends Trendmonger :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:02 pm 
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BBP wrote:
So how's Camouflage?


My copy arrived yesterday. Others earlier have done a good job of summarizing it but I'll mention that it hints at how the fall 75 tour could have had a more prog/classical sound if Novi had been in the band, and more of a blues sound if Denny and Frog had been in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Do you think Frank ever had to have a sit down with NMB to teach him how to properly pronounce Illinois?


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:39 pm 
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I was in South Dakota once and a clerk said to me "Oh, you are from Illinois, I mean, IlliNOISE. I'm sorry." She thought she was wrong the first time! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:57 pm 
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i had a tourist from somewhere stop and ask me how to get to SIOX falls,, then he asked me why don't they have taller fences out here cause he say a bunch of antelope jumping over them and that must cost those ranchers a lot to round them up.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:15 pm 
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First half general impression review:
(I am up through Illionoi-se Enema Bandit, how distracting it is no?)

First, lets get it out of the way.... What the hell happened to Tom Fowler after the beefheart tour, Roy's goddawful plodding is such a far departure from the creativity Tom exudes. That said, this is one of my only critiques. But was Tom fired or what? And considering the auditions Frank was famous for and the presumable line of musicians out the door, I can still not grasp the return of Roy.

Phyniox - Awesome, I don't care if it fell apart to nothing, wish it didn't fade but that's the side of me that could literally listen to any inch of tape that exists. Very cool changes to vamp on, neat tune.

T'Mershi Duween - Again, Roy's part is as boring as it comes in contrast with what is otherwise a very unique arrangement of this song. It sounds like a proto-version... but it came later? Definetly has some more obtuse harmonies in there than usual.

Reeny-Ra - Awesome.

Honey Don't You Want A Man Like Me - Awesome. Bad sound, lots of mistake, but awesome.

The Illinois Enema Bandit - Nothing too new here but neat nonetheless.

I cheated and skipped ahead to Black Napkins.... Amazing, awesome, incredible, buy this album.

Will edit this post with the rest later.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:19 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
So, we can now add "homophobic" to the long list (and much too long to list here) of ABSOLUTELY ABSURD accusations made against me by SPACEBROTHER (aka, tweedle-dumb). I'm not sure where or how he came up with that one?! I guess it was the hand-job comment? But then again, this crap is coming from someone who thinks that if a person posts a pic of a hoodie, that that person is automatically racist (amongst a multitude of other incredibly stupid assumptions). So, we can't get our hopes up too much if we expect SPACEBROTHER (aka, tweedle-dumb) to enhance himself in the intellectual dept., can we, folks?


Nothing screams superior rational intellect like tossing out homoerotic themed insults...that is of course dependent on your observations that three grown men give each other hand jobs is of a negative or positive connotation. I will use rational thought to base past observations of your replies to interpretation that the act of three grown men giving each other hand jobs is a bad thing in your view, thus making you a homophobe.


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Comedy gold, folks. Comedy fucking gold...

tweedle-dumb wrote:
None of this has anything to do with this CD release. Some people just can't help but being enormous douchebags.


Tell me about it! I mean, it's not everyday some ultra-stupid-political-hack-who-supports-a-genocide-happy-Obama like you flames me for 10 pages, while hilariously claiming I'm the one at fault - despite the FACT that's not the case. But it does happen.

Btw, thanks for admitting you're a douche-bag. And because of that, look on the bright side: at least you've made one step in the right direction...

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:43 am 
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Okay - transaction at Barfko-Swill was not completed for some reason, but the payment is registered with Paypal. So I'm in a limbo, where the money's set to be collected, but the order hasn't been confirmed with Barfko-Swill. I sent an e-mail to musictoday yesterday to clear up the mess - no answer during their whole working day. It's tempting to bitch and moan, but who knows what will happen next if I do. Signed, So-Called Fan

I was sittin' in a breakfast room in Allentown, Pennsylvania,
six o'clock in the morning, got up too early, it was a terrible mistake...
sittin' there face-to-face with a 75 cent glass of orange juice
about as big as my finger and a bowl of horribly foreshortened cornflakes,
and I said to myself: "This is the life!" . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:21 am 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
First, lets get it out of the way.... What the hell happened to Tom Fowler after the beefheart tour, Roy's goddawful plodding is such a far departure from the creativity Tom exudes. That said, this is one of my only critiques. But was Tom fired or what? And considering the auditions Frank was famous for and the presumable line of musicians out the door, I can still not grasp the return of Roy.


Going to guess Tom had had enough. He mentioned having some issues playing with Bozzio in the interview I found. As for Roy, FZ seemed to like him personally more than most of his musicians and I've read rumors that FZ wanted to help him out. Also FZ probably decided to do a tour of basic music that didn't need a virtuoso bassist, although for the next tour he ditched that idea and brought in Jobson and O'Hearn.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:25 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
He mentioned having some issues playing with Bozzio in the interview I found.

Yes, it's here (find the full interview here!):
Quote:
One thing that happened that drove George Duke and me nuts was that Bozzio, during my last tour, would play that elastic shit with Frank while Duke and I were supposed to keep time, and it was really confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:38 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Shrewnews wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
For example I have never bought one of those bootleg movies sold by ladies that would be better off preparing won ton on in a local noodle shop, "five dallah', five dallah".


Go to hell, you racist piece of shit.


just because someone imitates an accent it doesn't make them racist, you dumbbell.


the "imitation" of an accent is the least racist part of that entirely racist statement


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:05 am 
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balint wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
He mentioned having some issues playing with Bozzio in the interview I found.

Yes, it's here (find the full interview here!):
Quote:
One thing that happened that drove George Duke and me nuts was that Bozzio, during my last tour, would play that elastic shit with Frank while Duke and I were supposed to keep time, and it was really confusing.


Interesting, thank you! It strikes me that Terry has a strong presence in FZ's oeuvre: with Punky's Whips and I'm So Cute he has two songs dedicated to him alone, plus the various drum solos on Baby Snakes and YCDTOSA 3/2... Steve Vai had one song IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
First, lets get it out of the way.... What the hell happened to Tom Fowler after the beefheart tour, Roy's goddawful plodding is such a far departure from the creativity Tom exudes. That said, this is one of my only critiques.


If you want to have your best chance of understanding how Frank was composing for this group, I would ask you to discorporate and let go of the want quotient for Tom Fowler. In the very short time that this band was working together, it was clear that Frank had them incoporporating many tonal pallates into the arrangements. It's also clear that Frank was enjoying the Greasing that was going on, "Sha La La". By this time in 75' there was no secret greasings going on, it was apaprant Frank built his music where at times greasing it up was in the plans.

One of the amazing things about the Corsaga series is that we literally get to hear Frank build the work. While the recordings here are 4 track and mono casette, it's clear that each nugget, in it's raw form, warts and all, play out with cohesiveness. While I can understand how fans dream of given musicians being in any band at any period of time there should be no need for comparing the muscianship of Tom Folwer and Roy Estrada. To me that is a distraction from what Frank was doing at the time of these recordings.

I think it is important to let the work stand on it's own. Frank was having some fun working with this band. I'm surely having a great time listening. I feel no need to criticize the need for any other player in the mix, but have your own mind, where hopefully the want of a nail does not get in the way of this music standing on it's own. I can see where these small actions, of creating a want need for Tom Fowler, where that can get in the way of folks taking the tapes for what they are. These tapes live in their space and time. The ultimite solution is that we can enjoy them for what they are from here to eternity.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Bonny (and anyone else) buy Camouflage and listen to Black Napkins over and over and over..... :smoke:

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
A question: Is the studio cut of Kaiser Rolls of the same or similar vintage as the Camouflage cuts?

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:32 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
A question: Is the studio cut of Kaiser Rolls of the same or similar vintage as the Camouflage cuts?


This is a good question, and I'll explain it with interpretive dance:

(AFK)

I hope that clears it up. I messed a couple of the steps up, but it should give you a general impression.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:42 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
A question: Is the studio cut of Kaiser Rolls of the same or similar vintage as the Camouflage cuts?


"Kaiser Rolls" is from January 6, 1976. Camouflage is from summer 1975.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Trendmonger, shutup. It's called preference. Frank may have had his reasons... and no matter what they are I disagree with him on this one. Roy should have never been brought back, he is an albatross around the band's neck when they go to take solos or try anything risky really. It's not that I need Tom Fowler on this album, I would be just as pleased at having Patrick join the group earlier, it's not so much Tom > Roy, it's more like a Bass strung around a tree trunk > Roy.

I understand Frank wanted to get away from funky fusion-y sound he had, and go towards more straight forward Rock (As well as not wait in line to take solos) but while this is an incredible album and an absolute must-have, as a bass player I know I'm going to spin it less than most (as with FZ:OZ).

Again, Trendy, they are called opinions we all are allowed to have them and it doesn't delegitimize us as fans.


Tom Fowler hates Zappa's synth music... I love it... so what? I'm not going to claim I like FZ more than Tom Fucking Fowler. I just like his synth stuff, in much the same way I can't stand Roy and JCB's 'playing'.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:00 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BillyDaMt wrote:
thanks for putting that version of Downers out, what an amazing song.

I've been telling people how great the 1975 Any Downers was. Now people are starting to get it! Thanks, ZFT.
80s version is sort of inconsequential.

Topsham, Billy? Better than Brunswick, right? haha. I was in the S. Portland, Cape Elizabeth area
visiting with a girlfriend 2 summers ago. Beautiful.


Yeah ive been here for 5yrs now, up from Portland. I am on the Brunswick side of Topsham, near the bridge.
I love Portland, but the mid-coast is even nicer.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:02 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
"Kaiser Rolls" is from January 6, 1976. Camouflage is from summer 1975.

Cheers. Northern hemisphere summer obviously, so at least four months apart.

I've searched for the lineup on this thread and couldn't find it so I'm sorry if this is repeated but according to Donlope's IINK tyne lineup is:

FZ—guitar, vocals
Robert "Frog" Camarena—guitar, vocals
Denny Walley—slide guitar, vocals
Novi Novog—viola, vocals
Napoleon Murphy Brock—sax, vocals
Roy Estrada—bass, vocals
Terry Bozzio—drums, vocals

This is followed by the Royce Hall gigs and then a tour with

FZ—guitar, vocals
André Lewis—keyboards, vocals
Napoleon Murphy Brock—sax, vocals
Roy Estrada—bass, vocals
Terry Bozzio—drums, vocals

Then the studio cut of Kaiser Rolls followed by the same band touring Australia et al.

It looks like he might have been working towards an album idea from around August 1975 that he then eventually gave up on. I notice that Norma Jean Bell on sax and vocals was only in the late 1975 stuff and only appears on Frank Zappa Plays The Music Of Frank Zappa and Joe's Menage.

Is Joe's Menage the best recording available of that stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:33 pm 
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Gray_Ghost wrote:
Joe's Camo
Ordered: 1st of Feb
Shipped: 3rd of Feb
Billed: 3rd of Feb US$30.70(NZ$38.57)
Arrived: 13th of Feb


Thats today folks, no prizes for guessing what I will be listening to tonight 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:33 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
"Kaiser Rolls" is from January 6, 1976. Camouflage is from summer 1975.



Is Joe's Menage the best recording available of that stuff?

Yes but really, even then Norma is hardly noticeable playing a prominent role in maybe 1 or 2 tracks if I recall correctly. As for boots with Norma, I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:13 am 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
I understand Frank wanted to get away from funky fusion-y sound he had, and go towards more straight forward Rock


In the so called "going towards more straight forward rock", that blanket statement can be quite misrepresentative. As far as straight forward rock, can that termionology not be anywhere between Joni Mitchel and Black Sabbath, these artists show far more sense of diversity than the context between how each write for the so-called rock world. BTW, Joni has had some amazing bass players, her catalouge is not merely a circle game with painted ponies going up and down on a merry go round.

I look at this project for it's overall creativitiveness. The tonal pallates in the compositions are far more diverse than it just being straight forward rock. I for one do not always need a bass player with chops for an arrangement to speak with a sense of diversity. Frank had thought that Jack Bruce's playing was a bit too busy, but sure, many of us just love anything jack Bruce has ever done. n When it gets down to the soloing, you can here Frank soloing over movements that are part of the folklore of a very special song that has yet to get it's official release. It's not always necessary to have a bass player that gets busy. If a bass player has chops from hell or just plods along like a really fine 50s greaser, may he too find solitude.

You have every right to let this sit on the shelf as much as you want. What are we at now, 98 official releases. For my eyes and ears a jazz bass player is not the quotient here. It's about overall composition that Frank was workign with. I take it for what it is. It's obvious that soem bass players are going to have more chops than others, but at times, bass chops are just not necessary for the desired composiional aspects of what is happening at that time. The overall compositional textures and works in progress are all very cohisive to my eyes and ears. I like these arrangements very much for what they are. Some have pointed out phonics of how Naploean sings Illinois, that is one small example of many things that turn up in these arrangements. These arrangements are it's own soup with it's own set of ingredients. There are unique textural things going on. Sometimes a given musician can be so full of themselves where their stle of playing or lack of professionalism towards what the composer wants, the just do not fit what is going on. Jeff Berlin has one of the finest chops in the jazz industry, yet he was young and foolish not to know how to work with Frank Zappa.

For me Joe's Camoufalge will get many listens. It's quite unique and stands on it's own. It shows so very much how Frank was working. I care more about what Frank was doing than what fans think or care to dream what they think should have taken place.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:21 am 
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Holy fuck man... if the statement "straight forward rock" upsets you - by all means - tell us what it REALLY means. I just dont understand how anyone could get confused at the idea of that comment meaning anything less than super complex music in comparison. /insertsarcasticeyerollhere

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