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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:24 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
Holy fuck man... if the statement "straight forward rock" upsets you - by all means - tell us what it REALLY means. I just dont understand how anyone could get confused at the idea of that comment meaning anything less than super complex music in comparison. /insertsarcasticeyerollhere


By no means am I confused, nor am I upset. It should be clear that rock can mean anything from Joni Mitchell to Black Sabbath, I think Frank at one time had spoken of such. What is not clear is if fans are understanding that how Frank took straingt forward rock, of any time, put it into his music and made his own soup out of it. The shims in Denny's guitar, Novi's violin, these tonal pallates create a uniqueness in the arrangements, As Vai says, adds lots of garlic. These arrangements are by no means standard rock arrangements, they have lots of garlic.

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Last edited by Trendmonger on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:30 am 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
polydigm wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
"Kaiser Rolls" is from January 6, 1976. Camouflage is from summer 1975.



Is Joe's Menage the best recording available of that stuff?

Yes but really, even then Norma is hardly noticeable playing a prominent role in maybe 1 or 2 tracks if I recall correctly. As for boots with Norma, I'm not sure.


Back on the FZPTMOFZ disc Dweezil mentioned the idea of releasing a CD of the Yugoslavia gig. I'm not sure why this hasn't happened since it could likely be better than Menage.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:38 am 
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Well considering I'm paraphrasing Franks own description of the tour I'll stick with the description. And it isn't about chops or even playing busily. Picasso is known for his cubism and abstract deconstructionism but he could paint a realistic human figure perfectly first. He learned the rules in order to better break them. I don't need 300 notes a second to like the bass line, but counterpoint, knowledge of harmonies, abstract rhythms, are going to make the few notes you play count for more. Novi and Andre (and the rest) are incredible garlic, all I'm saying is that no matter how good the garlic stew my stomach is going to notice a humongous turd in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:47 am 
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any downers is my fav on the whole album just really good vibe.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:09 am 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
Well considering I'm paraphrasing Franks own description of the tour I'll stick with the description. And it isn't about chops or even playing busily. Picasso is known for his cubism and abstract deconstructionism but he could paint a realistic human figure perfectly first. He learned the rules in order to better break them. I don't need 300 notes a second to like the bass line, but counterpoint, knowledge of harmonies, abstract rhythms, are going to make the few notes you play count for more.


Relax, Roy is playing what FZ told him to play and FZ knew all of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:25 am 
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Two questions:

1. We know these folks are on the rehearsal tapes, but who's playing the keyboards? Andre Lewis?

FZ—guitar, vocals
Robert "Frog" Camarena—guitar, vocals
Denny Walley—slide guitar, vocals
Novi Novog—viola, vocals
Napoleon Murphy Brock—sax, vocals
Roy Estrada—bass, vocals
Terry Bozzio—drums, vocals

2. Does anyone know the reason(s) why a tour with this band never happened?


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:29 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Phlakaton wrote:
Holy fuck man... if the statement "straight forward rock" upsets you - by all means - tell us what it REALLY means. I just dont understand how anyone could get confused at the idea of that comment meaning anything less than super complex music in comparison. /insertsarcasticeyerollhere


By no means am I confused, nor am I upset. It should be clear that rock can mean anything from Joni Mitchell to Black Sabbath, I think Frank at one time had spoken of such. What is not clear is if fans are understanding that how Frank took straingt forward rock, of any time, put it into his music and made his own soup out of it. The shims in Denny's guitar, Novi's violin, these tonal pallates create a uniqueness in the arrangements, As Vai says, adds lots of garlic. These arrangements are by no means standard rock arrangements, they have lots of garlic.

After consuming so much garlic, it's no wonder your posts come off as a bad case of GARLIC BREATH :smoke:

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:53 am 
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tiboudre wrote:
1. We know these folks are on the rehearsal tapes, but who's playing the keyboards?


Napoleon (yes, he was going to play keyboards in this band) and Novi.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:31 am 
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tiboudre wrote:
2. Does anyone know the reason(s) why a tour with this band never happened?


I got the impression from Greg Russo's book that a couple of the band members (unnamed, but probably Novi and Frog) were slacking off too much and not taking the music seriously.

pbuzby wrote:
tiboudre wrote:
1. We know these folks are on the rehearsal tapes, but who's playing the keyboards?


Napoleon (yes, he was going to play keyboards in this band) and Novi.


Isn't Andre Lewis thanked in the credits? Is he also playing on the CD somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:45 am 
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Shrewnews wrote:
tiboudre wrote:
2. Does anyone know the reason(s) why a tour with this band never happened?


I got the impression from Greg Russo's book that a couple of the band members (unnamed, but probably Novi and Frog) were slacking off too much and not taking the music seriously.


So chances are FZ fired some of the folks before the Fall '75 tour happened?

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:00 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
So chances are FZ fired some of the folks before the Fall '75 tour happened?


With FZ that's always a strong possibility. FWIW, Novi has said she left because her group got signed to Warners, and Denny went to Beefheart's band who had a tour in Europe around the same time as FZ's fall 75 U.S. tour.

Shrewnews wrote:
Isn't Andre Lewis thanked in the credits? Is he also playing on the CD somewhere?


He is listed as "Special Mention." Napoleon is not credited for keyboards. I am wondering if the ZFT forgot or didn't know about Napoleon's brief keyboard stint, heard two keyboardists and assumed one was Andre. If Andre is there, he isn't playing anything much like what he played live with FZ.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:13 am 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
I don't need 300 notes a second to like the bass line, but counterpoint, knowledge of harmonies, abstract rhythms, are going to make the few notes you play count for more.


"Ha ha ha ha ha ha . . ." (The Orange County Lumber Truck, Weasels Ripped My Flesh)

When it comes to listening to any of the 98 official releases at home, there's no reason for the guy with the gong to come out and stop the band playing. There are times when Roy sounds amazingly good for what Frank is composing. In the case with playing the parts to the composition or setting up the bass line for the solo Roy Estrada does a fine job for my ears. That's not to say Zappa did not have far superior bass players in many of his bands.

Case in point is Roy's playing in The Orange County Lumber Truck from Weasels Ripped My Flesh. Long before I had any idea who Tom Folwer was I was well rehearsed with listening to Frank's earlier works. I don't deny that as Frank went forward he worked with many musicians that had far supperior skills but 1968 Mothers sounded amazing. I'll also add that I like many of FZs other bass players better, but I take the compositioan and arrangements for what they are.

Whatever your doing, I suggest getting out Weasels and play The Orange County Lumber Truck loud. While the bass parts are not complex it's as perfect as any bass parts that FZ solos to. The track is a hybrid from two seperate shows, for me, The Orange County Lumber Truck from Weasels Ripped My Flesh is one of those recordings that I would have to take to a desert island. As I said there are many bass players that have far superior musical skills to Roy, but this track is one example of something I want on my desert island disk.


and but also,

here is an amazing version of Dweezil Zappa Plays Zappa performing The Orange County Lumber Truck at Gatherg Of The Vibes.
It goes from the Weasels arrangement of The Orange County Lumber Truck into the Roxy arrangement of Trouble Every Day. Kurt Morgan, the bass player for Zappa Plays Zappa, does a really fine job in playing both stylings of Roy Estrada and Tom Fowler. If you ever had a chance to see this live you would understand how The Orange County arrangement, originally played by Roy, shook the building. It all sounds seamless. The two arrangements from different Zappa touring periods fit together amazingly well. And if your really listening closely, during the solo section of Trouble Every Day you'll hear secret chord progressions that Frank threw in long after Tom Folwer was out of the band. When Dweezil does Hybrid arrangements, at times he pulls in things from so many different touring arrangements that a fan really needs to have his ears well tuned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeS36M-gMko

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:35 am 
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ZPZ and Dz do a great job, but.....If you are familiar with Ed Palermo and his big band and his charts, I think you will hear some of Fz tunes arranged brilliantly, i can only think Frank would have loved Ed, Dz should sit in with the EPBB, imho

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:47 am 
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I think Ed P is great. Trendy has seen him many times. Unfortunately, he considers them to only be "in the ballpark".

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Gary, the only thing that gives me hope is that you will be irrevocably injured by a freak typing injury while
hammering out your utter drivel filled with copious amounts of misplaced (and highly implausible) self righteousness.
If I were the praying type, I might even stoop to bended knee to strengthen this hope.
But alas.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:57 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
I think Ed P is great. Trendy has seen him many times. Unfortunately, he considers them to only be "in the ballpark".

I am pretty sure the ZFT is aware of EPBB as Ed has stated on his web site that Gail has threatened law suite, but i don't think that has happened. As somewhat of a comparison there were tribute bands on the CBS beatles 50th show and it looks like the remaining beatles embraced them. EP is really not a tribute band his charts are new arrangement's of FZ tunes, for what it's worth i really do think Frank would have liked EP and his charts.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:14 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
Grimpoteuthis wrote:
Well considering I'm paraphrasing Franks own description of the tour I'll stick with the description. And it isn't about chops or even playing busily. Picasso is known for his cubism and abstract deconstructionism but he could paint a realistic human figure perfectly first. He learned the rules in order to better break them. I don't need 300 notes a second to like the bass line, but counterpoint, knowledge of harmonies, abstract rhythms, are going to make the few notes you play count for more.


Relax, Roy is playing what FZ told him to play and FZ knew all of that.


Relax? I'm not irate, but okay... Also thanks for then adding what I had already posted. Yes, we are all aware these are Frank decisions, the issue is whether or not we agree with these decisions, and out of curiosity as to the reason why (as objectively as possible) a mediocre bassist replaced one of the finest ever.

Anyway, that distraction aside....

Trendy, Weasels is a great album.... the only part I'm not wild about... well you can guess it :)

Also, those albums are great but you can't say what they would have sounded like with ______ on them so it's not really a defence of the argument. The early mothers are great and adventerous but most my Zappa listening start in '69 with his non-JCB and Roy band. Sounds under rehearsed, sloppy, repetitive, clashes with the Gardners and Underwoods talent.

Again, my opinion. But I have the feeling this plain fact won't stop you from telling me I'm wrong...

I'm struggling with why two people who feel criticizing Frank's choices and discussing his albums would bother creating FORUM accounts. Much simpler the ZFT just put up a page that says "Frank Was Always Right" and we can all stare at that together in silence?

Also Kurt is a beast, the current ZPZ lineup is by far the best I've seen*, never heard of Kurt before the last show but he absolutely owned Apostrophe with Chester Thompson on drums.

*Travers was missed, but surprisingly my apprehension to a vibes-less lineup was satiated by how much this band rocked.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
Grimpoteuthis wrote:
The early mothers are great and adventerous but most my Zappa listening start in '69 with his non-JCB and Roy band.

I feel the same to a degree. IMO the mothers were way better when they were 'controlled' (e.g the orchestral stuff and 'tunes') than when they were allowed to express themselves. When the post mothers' players were allowed to express themselves, you could really feel the difference in the musicianship, and sound better than when controlled - 'the ocean is...' being a good example. The mothers could never do that.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:57 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
but.....If you are familiar with Ed Palermo and his big band and his charts, I think you will hear some of Fz tunes arranged brilliantly, i can only think Frank would have loved Ed, Dz should sit in with the EPBB, imho

I'm sure you know that his latest album has just been releaed like this week - just a few facts:

- is was promoted correctly
- it was released when it was promised
- it has a reasonable, normal price (a double album!)
- you have different choices how to buy it - the download is a lot cheaper

...and the music is just as great as one would ecpect from Ed Palermo. I enjoyed The Black Page the most, where the melody jumps from instrument to instrument.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Thanks for the segway to Ed Palermo. I've just purchased his latest album from Amazon paying half the postage charged by musicsomeday[®Doug].

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
Back on the FZPTMOFZ disc Dweezil mentioned the idea of releasing a CD of the Yugoslavia gig. I'm not sure why this hasn't happened since it could likely be better than Menage.

I don't go to DZW much any more - a certain user named Gary being the main reason amongst others. Has this ever been discussed over there? Stating the obvious: I would buy this.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
He learned the rules in order to better break them.

There are no rules. It's music. This kind of rule-following mentality led to the banning of the so called devil's interval (tritone).
What men made the rules? Why are they boss?

All there really is is time spent thinking about/studying, listening to and playing music. Roy probably didn't spend as much time with his bass as Fowler. Cool that Zappa didn't give a shit and hired him anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:47 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
... led to the banning of the so called devil's interval (tritone)...

You spelled that wrong. There's no "r". It's Titone.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:46 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Grimpoteuthis wrote:
He learned the rules in order to better break them.

There are no rules. It's music. This kind of rule-following mentality led to the banning of the so called devil's interval (tritone).
What men made the rules? Why are they boss?

All there really is is time spent thinking about/studying, listening to and playing music. Roy probably didn't spend as much time with his bass as Fowler. Cool that Zappa didn't give a shit and hired him anyway.


"...I picked it all up from the library.

I have been composing for two years now, utilizing a strict twelve-tone technique, producing effects that are reminiscent of Anton Webern.

During those two years I have written two short woodwind quartets and a short symphony for winds, brass and percussion...

...I went to the Jaycee and studied harmony and music appreciation and history for one semester and came out of it with A's and B's.

I plan to go on and be a composer after college and I could really use the counsel of a veteran such as you. If you would allow me to visit with you for even a few hours it would be greatly appreciated.

It may sound strange but I think I have something to offer you in the way of new ideas. One is an elaboration on the principle of Ruth Seeger's contrapuntal dynamics and the other is an extension of the twelve-tone technique which I call the inversion square. It enables one to compose harmonically constructed pantonal music in logical patterns and progressions while still abandoning tonality.

Would you please reply as soon as possible because I will not be here much longer. My address here is 4803 Loch Raven Blvd., Baltimore Maryland. Phone Hopkins 77336. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely,

Frank Zappa Jr."

Zappa letter to Varese..... no there are no rules and Frank wrote everything in a fucking vacuum. /s You are thick. Seriously, who are these people who think everything is perfect and above discussion or critique.

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 Post subject: Re: Roxy Camouflage
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:16 am 
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If you seriously want to know the answer to "who wrote the rules", it's "those rules evolved, polyphonic music isn't very old and was first theorised by Hucbald around 800 AD. To our ears, the occasional tritone is tolerable, but something like a regular 4th interval was long considered to be too off-key to be used in European society. Even something as pleasant as the minor 6th interval took a long time to become accepted. Taste has developed a lot, particularly now that recordings are so readily available.

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