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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:11 am 
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hot rats ? joes garage next year maybe :'(


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:48 am 
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Hot Rats


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:41 am 
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[quote author=scoty link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#25 date=04/19/04 at 06:11:32]hot rats ? joes garage next year maybe :'([/quote]<br><br><br>I hope so!!  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(<br>

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:38 pm 
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Breaking an album down into a mathematical formula and giving the title to the one that ends up with the highest score totally defeats the purpose of art.  :-/<br><br>... plus trying to be as objective as possible like you want to be, Hot Rats fills out more of those categories than WOIIFTM does (except the ones that it's not fair to apply to Hot Rats like lyrics and representation of current band)!  :P


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:46 pm 
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Music is in many senses transcendent of these types of categories you're breaking down.  There are various intangibles that can make an album "better" than another one that you can't quite put your finger on.  Obviously rating an album on statistics doesn't hurt it, but it's pointless and silly.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:50 pm 
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[quote author=King Geedorah link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=30#32 date=04/19/04 at 16:46:01]Music is in many senses transcendent of these types of categories you're breaking down.  There are various intangibles that can make an album "better" than another one that you can't quite put your finger on.  Obviously rating an album on statistics doesn't hurt it, but it's pointless and silly.[/quote]<br>to vote for an album on any criteria is statistically analysing it...one method is qualitative what you prefer and the other is quanititive which rk has opted for...both methods are perfectly valid and both methods are statistical...they;re just measured differently

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:53 pm 
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You're right about that - it's not right to say that either way of rating an album is invalid, so I apologize for taking that kind of standpoint.  I still stand by the fact that an album can be superior to another while not winning as many statistical categories as another (which doesn't even really apply to this since as I stated, my opinion is that Hot Rats would win that too).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:27 pm 
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I've studied music for years too, you're not special.  Well, maybe special in the way Corky was, but that's besides the point.  Randomly assuming that I don't play instruments when I'm actually a multi-instrumentalist further proves you need to pull your head out of your ass.<br><br>Analysis is good, however rating an album based on categories like "how well it represents the current band" (what if the current band sucks, but the music is incredible; wouldn't that be a bad representation of the current group? Yet it still gets points in a category that asinine) and lyrics when it's basically an instrumental album hardly serve a real purpose other than for you to feel that you've validated your own opinion.  In reality, that's really just as subjective as me saying "Hot Rats is better because it is", but you're just trying to give it some sort of validity.<br><br>Now if you'll stop being an asshole and keeping some sort of score count on how many times you agree with me in this thread, maybe we can have a discussion here.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:30 pm 
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[quote author=King Geedorah link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=30#37 date=04/19/04 at 17:27:58]I've studied music for years too, you're not special.  Well, maybe special in the way Corky was, but that's besides the point.  Randomly assuming that I don't play instruments when I'm actually a multi-instrumentalist further proves you need to pull your head out of your ass.<br><br>Analysis is good, however rating an album based on categories like "how well it represents the current band" (what if the current band sucks, but the music is incredible; wouldn't that be a bad representation of the current group? Yet it still gets points in a category that asinine) and lyrics when it's basically an instrumental album hardly serve a real purpose other than for you to feel that you've validated your own opinion.  In reality, that's really just as subjective as me saying "Hot Rats is better because it is", but you're just trying to give it some sort of validity.<br><br>Now if you'll stop being an asshole and keeping some sort of score count on how many times you agree with me in this thread, maybe we can have a discussion here.[/quote]<br>do you mean corky from life goes on???

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:35 pm 
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??? Who would put a negative stastic in an analysis like this?  That way an album that fills out categories like "how crappy the quality is " and "how bad the playing is" would make it possible for a shitty album to outscore a great one.   Assuming the point of this whole stupid thing is to get the highest tally, what would be the purpose of making negative things part of the categorization?<br><br>I'm not embracing ignorance at all.  I'm not ignoring your viewpoint or the concept of analyzing music in general; what I am doing is saying that breaking down an album into a categorical formula like that is asinine.  You can go ahead and do it if you want, but all it's doing is making you feel like you're right when really it isn't very objective at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:40 pm 
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The only problem I have with The Hot Rats Lineup, is that they didnt do another album.  :P


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:48 pm 
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[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=30#41 date=04/19/04 at 17:40:00]<br>IN MY OPINION, you are embracing ignorance.[/quote]<br><br>Go look up what "ignorance" means and then explain how I'm being ignorant on this issue.   I guess the fact that I disagree with you strikes you as being ignorant?  ???<br><br> ::)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:54 pm 
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I apologized for the way I worded that remark in my reply to Central Scrutinizer.  I agree that statement was rushed, but I further explained what I meant in more thought out terms a reply later.  You can ignore that totally and scroll down to see my main belief:<br><br>Analysis is good; categorical analyzation that features categories like that is asinine.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:02 pm 
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Hmmmm i'll have a go at this mate...<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]<br>1.  Composition[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats by far. Let’s not forget the great “instant composing” (aka improvistion) aspects on HR too. <br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]2.  Performance[/quote]<br><br>The skill level and execution on Hot Rats is obviously better.  Extra points because the material is much more challenging as well. <br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]3.  Introduction of New Musical Concepts[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats, released in 1969, foreshadowed many later developments in both jazz and rock.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]4.  Lyrics[/quote]<br><br>WOIIFTM is largely social commentary of that particular time. This dates the album to that specific time period. Also, I'll take Captain Beefheart singing down and dirty blues any day of the week please. Bloody brilliant vocal.<br><br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]5.  Uniqueness and Effectiveness of Arrangements[/quote]<br><br>Pffft. Hot Rats destroys WOIIFTM in this regard. The music is much more sophisticated and intricate overall. Plus, the improvistional aspects are quite phenomenal too. Listen to Zappa weave around in Green Genes, stellar.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]6.  Place in Musical History[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats. One of the first jazz-rock albums ever, hugely influential for what was to follow. In fact, jazz-rock was the next big thing in music at the time. <br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]7.  Place in Sociological History[/quote]<br><br>The fact that WOIIFTM is largely social commentary instantly dates much of the material to that time period. Hots Rats helped define and influence a whole NEW genre of music, jazz-rock fusion.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]8.  Excellence in the Musician Lineup[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats features much better players and playing than WOIIFTM. Including Zappa's own guitar playing. Many of the players are top notch jazz musicians. This clearly illustrates Zappa's stellar band leader and arrangement skills and his ability to relate to top notch musicians to get what he wants. Simply amazing.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]9.  Quality of Recording[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats sounds better. One of the first albums to be recorded on a 16 track recorder, it was a proto-type in fact. The quantity and texture of the overdubbing on Hot Rats was revolutionary at the time.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]10.  Listenablilty[/quote]<br><br>? Both are listenable. I hear more music in Hot Rats though.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]11.  Representation of the Artist's Overall Career[/quote] <br><br>Definitely Hot Rats. Zappa thought of himself first and foremost as a composer and even stated that Peaches En Regalia is one of his all-time best ever across-the-board compositions. He stated that words and lyrics were a necessary evil because instrumental music was relatively irrelevant to the masses. <br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]12.  Representation of the Current Band[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats represents where Zappa would go in the future, it raised the bar mate. With this album he realized that if he was going to have his increasingly complex music played he'd have to draw in musicians from the jazz and classical worlds and with this album he did that almost exclusively. This also shows what a great and quickly adaptable band leader he was.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]13.  Completeness of the Album's Concept[/quote]<br><br>Movie for your ears? Works for me.<br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]14.  Packaging and Liner Notes[/quote]  <br><br>Personally, I like Hot Rats' better chap. <br><br>[quote author=Arkay link=board=albums;num=1082301042;start=15#29 date=04/19/04 at 12:55:26]15.  Conceptual Continuity[/quote]<br><br>Hot Rats part 1. Along with Lumpy Gravy, Zappa's first "music music" efforts. Links to Uncle Meat. Also, Waka Jawaka. <br><br>Anyway, have fun mates. <br>

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:03 pm 
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No, I agree that analyzing music is good.  What I don't see is any real value in breaking an album down in selective categories.<br><br>Then again, is there any real value in arguing over which Zappa album is the best anyways?<br><br> :P


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:07 pm 
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When I was in first semester music theory class about a thousand years ago, Ok in the early '80's, my teacher presented something that always stuck with me.<br><br>He said something along the lines that as a listener, it is enough to know that you like a composition and just enjoy it. As a composer, you should take it to the next step and ask yourself  why do you like it. What is it about this music that grabs you that sets it apart from other music? Then he listed the various elements of music and we talked about them, individually and in combinations. The end point was that if you can develop critical listening skills and can pin down what it is that you like about it, you can absorb those qualities and make them your own and incorporate it into yourself. After a while you develop the ability to listen to music on several different levels. <br><br>Then when I got into doing recordings, I learned a whole other set of skills in a similar way; what is it about this album that makes it sound so good? How can I do that?<br><br>There's nothing wrong with simply saying "this is my favorite album because it's the one I like best" and leaving it at that. But knowledge of why you like art doesn't kill art. It just allows you to articulate specifically why you like it in more detail. Then later if you want to compare and contrast, you have something more to work with.<br><br>I think Arkay's list is mind blowing and insightful. I can tell he put some serious thought into it. I think it's pretty excellent. I'm gonna make a copy of it and dig into it more later.

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