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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:10 am 
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Caputh wrote:
That doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't do it, though...

Agreed.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:15 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Plook wrote:
quote]

And one more in...


Like many others you three somehow confuse these crimes with sexual passion or aggressive love, they are neither and are nowhere in the same zip code with these things. The motivation of these criminals is violent or submissive control over another, they are taking away the individuals choice of what will happen to their body, they enslave through force, and subjugate by overpowering.


Yes a life of punishment is appropriate for these individuals as they have left a lifelong mark on their victims. You all seem very intelligent on many subjects, but appears that you need to nourish your minds as to the real nature of these crimes, do some research and report back.



Er. Plook where did I, or the other 2 mention that sexual passion or aggressive love came into it all? Compulsion indicates the failure to control a, in this case, revolting desire that, as you so rightly put it, involves enslaving through force etc.
This, however, connects up to the question of responsibility i.e. if the person cannot stop themselves from doing these things. This poses the moral question: "Do we therefore treat this person in the same way as we do a normal criminal, who can control himself?"
Your answer is: "No, we stick him in prison, like we do other criminals and if he ever gets out then we hand him over to the public to decide (thus bypassing the law). What worries me here is the sudden introduction of the general public as some kind of unqualified (and in the case of NMB entirely underinformed) judge- this I find a little medieval.
My answer is "No (too- you see, we're agreeing), put him (or her) into a high security mental home for the rest of his life, using a judicial system to pass the sentence on whether he was compelled to commit the crime or not.
Maybe we should all go away and do some reading, but it would be helpful for any debate, if you did actually read the posts people make instead of swinging out at them. merely because they do not share your point of view.


I hate to say it but I agree that they have to be put away for life, since our society has proven itself incapable of rehabilitating anyone. But it seems through my research into this subject (and I find it very uncomfortable) that most of these offenders are created by other offenders, I know there are the occasional "bad seeds" too. The only way to stop the cycle is to isolate these people from society and that is an unfortunate fact.
I apologize if I came off aggressive towards you and the others, but I know some children and woman who have been unfortunate enough to cross paths with these cretins. I feel very strongly as a capable man about the need to protect the week and it was all I could do to contain myself from getting my own life term by making things right.
Sorry if I insulted anyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:55 am 
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That's ok :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Plook wrote:
I am sorry to say this, since you are entitled to your opinions, but to feel sympathy for this group of scum who would rob a child of their childhood or rape a woman and deprive her of her pride and self security, you’re nuts.

Since you was kind enough to suggest I am an idiot, I cannot help but asking you, based on what you write above, whether you can actually read? Clearly you had no idea about what I was saying. At NO point did I express sympathy for sex offenders. How dare you!

My concern was, and is, whether full publicity about people's crimes is an appropriate way to deal with crime. I think it is not, as it relocates the powers of penalty from the public sector to the private. It clashes with the standard separation of powers in public governance, as it relocates some of the judiciary and executive powers to private discretion.

Why not post people's IQ? Then I could avoid settling in a neighborhood with idiots (or people could avoid my idiocy).

edit: Plook, just saw your apology after posting. Accepted; this is a sensitive subject.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:28 pm 
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:wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:44 pm 
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HJ wrote:
Plook wrote:
My concern was, and is, whether full publicity about people's crimes is an appropriate way to deal with crime. I think it is not, as it relocates the powers of penalty from the public sector to the private.


Do you think that keeping the public ignorant (suppressing information) is desirable. Maybe in Europe.

The media reports on crime and criminal justice around the clock (as lame as mainstream media can be). You don't want anybody to know about this stuff? Just the government? Give me a fucking break. Plook's apology may have been premature in your case.

I don't see a huge problem with vigilante groups in my country. Again, I can't speak for European countries.

How old are you?


Last edited by KillUgly on Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:48 pm 
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I said this before...The punishment should fit the crime! You murder...your dead, You rape..castration and the punishment should be swift and public. Nothing like watching a mans penis get cut off..Guarantee you will think about raping someone and so on! We live in a weak society with a bunch of pussy's dictating our laws.The criminal has more rights than the victims. Kill them all and let God sort it out. Wouldn't need the jail space to house these fuck ups and life would be a lot less difficult. You are debating about criminals living amongst us. Hard criminals should be rotting in jail or executed.They should not be living on my block in the first place, just waiting for some one's daughter/son/wife to become their next victim. And if you don't put rape as a hard crime than shame on you. You wouldn't think that way if the victim was a member of your family. You can't generalize all crimes but that's why we have a jury system..To be judged by your peers. Swift judgement/Stiffen the penalties and we would live in a freer society! If the poodlebites..put it down! What are you going to do..pet and feed it.. and wait for it to bite again?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:24 pm 
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I want to clarify my position, I raised a lot of women from a young age and the task continues even that they are now grown. I spent my life trying to anticipate and protect them from molestation and then rape, which is like trying to be psychic. We have been lucky but I know others that have not and the temptation to take action is great. My personal feeling is for anyone in anyway trying to protect or entitle these people to any right what so ever, have not known someone who has experienced these despicable acts. The bottom line of the registry is you were convicted and we all know the story of the guy with the 17 year old, or peeing in public and copping an exposure, and the fake rape. All those are unjust and wrong, but the percentage of attributable cases is low. Knowing NMB background he most likely put himself in a bad situation and it was cheaper to cop a plea. But we don’t know, as to the larger issue, if you’re a parent or have a daughter of any age, molestation and/or rape are roads we pray we never navigate.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:44 pm 
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KillUgly wrote:
HJ wrote:
Plook wrote:
My concern was, and is, whether full publicity about people's crimes is an appropriate way to deal with crime. I think it is not, as it relocates the powers of penalty from the public sector to the private.


Do you think that keeping the public ignorant (suppressing information) is desirable. Maybe in Europe.

The media reports on crime and criminal justice around the clock (as lame as mainstream media can be). You don't want anybody to know about this stuff? Just the government? Give me a fucking break. Plook's apology may have been premature in your case.

I don't see a huge problem with vigilante groups in my country. Again, I can't speak for European countries.

How old are you?


Sorry to be so harsh. I don't usually go off on people like that even when I strongly disagree with them as I do in this case. You probably are just some young kid with good intentions trying to figure things out. Just to restate my position.

The idea of a secret criminal justice system is a REALLY BAD IDEA.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:54 am 
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thepoodlebites wrote:
You rape..castration and the punishment should be swift and public. Nothing like watching a mans penis get cut off..Guarantee you will think about raping someone and so on!


I find the idea of public castrations darkly amusing. I assume you would want to televise them. What would you call the show? "Balls off"?, "Goodbye, old cock"`? Maybe just "Snippings"? If you had well-known perverts you might call it "Celebrity Snippings."
Would you perform the castration with sterile instruments, or would a rusty scythe suffice?
Mind you, I think financing the show through advertising might prove difficult and although you might relish the prospect, I can't see myself tuning in.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:57 am 
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Quote:
The sex offenders list is for the protection of people who are concerned with not running into possible perverts, not for smearing somebody's name all over creation.

Agreed, that is the stated intention, however, it only applies to previously caught, and convicted sex offenders as well as those who have plead guilty for whatever reason. I would argue that it is as much to do with the illusion of safety as it is to actually create safety. There are still all of the never before caught rapists, etc.
I would further argue once again that this registry being PUBLIC may inadvertently cause more harm than good in the long run as it has the potential of making more criminals eliminate their victims to cover up their crime. All I'm trying to suggest is that before we travel down the same retarded path we did with the war on drugs and every other social issue we might want to look at possible unintended consequences and see if our actions now are worth the cost later. Because lets face it, if in ten years we see that things are continually getting worse there will be no change, no one who supported these policies at the beginning will ever admit they made a mistake, no matter how many dead women and children are piling up. That's the way we do things here.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:00 am 
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On a more general note, I find it repulsive, the lack of concern for those who have been wrongly convicted. These people are victims, and survivors as surely as anyone else. Why the double standard of concern? Is it just easier to ignore the suffering of some than of others? Some of you people are mocking their victimization. From my point of view, there is nothing substantially different between a person who goes and rapes someone and the person who falsely imprisons someone (which most likely will lead to their rape.) Both have the same oppressive intent behind them, both are crimes, both dehumanize the victim. Add to that the threat of never being able to get past it and you have created a permanent victim status. If this is a mock-able situation in your mind then you have no... fuck it, it's an exercise in futility.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:41 am 
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KillUgly wrote:
KillUgly wrote:
HJ wrote:
My concern was, and is, whether full publicity about people's crimes is an appropriate way to deal with crime. I think it is not, as it relocates the powers of penalty from the public sector to the private.


Do you think that keeping the public ignorant (suppressing information) is desirable. Maybe in Europe.

The media reports on crime and criminal justice around the clock (as lame as mainstream media can be). You don't want anybody to know about this stuff? Just the government? Give me a fucking break. Plook's apology may have been premature in your case.

I don't see a huge problem with vigilante groups in my country. Again, I can't speak for European countries.

How old are you?


Sorry to be so harsh. I don't usually go off on people like that even when I strongly disagree with them as I do in this case. You probably are just some young kid with good intentions trying to figure things out. Just to restate my position.

The idea of a secret criminal justice system is a REALLY BAD IDEA.

I don't think the crime rate is much higher in Europe where generally it is the public sector that has the power to issue and execute penalties and monitor criminals (and where taking the law in your own hand is illegal). So, it may appear as a bad idea to old Americans, but it seems to work quite a lot of places in Europe. (What the media does, I think, is not in itself a good argument for having public files about criminal records.) It is not synonymous with a "secret criminal system", but a transparent system where a balance is struck between the need for publicity about lengths of punishments (for the, hopefully, deterrent effect), and privacy due to a concern for the involved (victim and accused - who may be convicted or non-guilty - and everybody's families). As I said above, which I will gladly repeat, if some convicts like child abusers are judged to never stop their actions, they should never be let out (they should be permanently institutionalized). Letting them out and putting them on the internet seems like a very bad idea.

Thanks for guessing me as young and full of good intentions. That is, I hope, a very fitting description.

I turn 49 next year. How old are you?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:13 am 
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I don't know how all you people can sleep at night, knowing that royalties from the albums you are buying are supporting a sex offender.
You should all burn your zappa records (after all, Frank employed a sex offender) and stop buying new releases.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:26 am 
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There was an article in my newspaper about things like this list. The author said that even if you let someone over 16 sleep with someone under 16 in your house, you get on the list. Even if you're caught peeing in a public area you get on the list. Is that accurate?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:33 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
I don't know how all you people can sleep at night, knowing that royalties from the albums you are buying are supporting a sex offender.
You should all burn your zappa records (after all, Frank employed a sex offender) and stop buying new releases.

That's nothing. Every single American has paid the salaries of people running a child prostitution ring in Iraq. The company formerly known as Black Water, and currently known as Xi ran and possibly continues to run a child prostitution ring while in the employ of the United States government. So, by proxy if you pay any taxes you are now a supporter of child prostitution, and they are still employed by the Obama administration in spite of this. It appears that the Bush administration knew this and still passed legislation to protect the private contractors from any criminal liability. Government sanctioned child prostitution is the best. Betcha never thought you would be responsible for supporting child prostitution in foreign lands, did ya?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:51 am 
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BBP wrote:
There was an article in my newspaper about things like this list. The author said that even if you let someone over 16 sleep with someone under 16 in your house, you get on the list. Even if you're caught peeing in a public area you get on the list. Is that accurate?

Doesn't sound out of place, so although I haven't seen those particular cases, I would tend to believe it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:54 am 
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BBP wrote:
There was an article in my newspaper about things like this list. The author said that even if you let someone over 16 sleep with someone under 16 in your house, you get on the list. Even if you're caught peeing in a public area you get on the list. Is that accurate?



Like all things there are the horror stories, I once worked with a guy that could no longer pass a background check for access to secured sites due to him being convicted of statutory rape when he was 19 or 20 for sleeping with a underage girl who he did not know was not 18.

Also I read about a guy who peed in public with several people watching and was busted for indecent exposure and also ended up on the registry.

These cases seem to be very few and you would think someone could filter these types of convictions but like many things once you are in a category, it is hard to get out. I have heard there are state congress members working on an amendment to rectify this situation, I am not sure what progress they have made.

But we should not throw the baby out with the bath water, since these situations are few and far between, the crime committed is usually defined and the convicted have pleaded or been to trial. The unfortunates are those who were swept up after the law was passed. Do you close down the prisons since you found a couple of innocent men incarcerated?

I suspect NMB was maybe with an underage girl for whatever reason or falsely accused of rape and plead out (big mistake). That’s why you should be very careful when it comes to who, where, and when you have sex. Don’t take plea to mitigate your possible sentence if you are innocent, fight like hell.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Do you think that keeping the public ignorant (suppressing information) is desirable. Maybe in Europe.

The media reports on crime and criminal justice around the clock (as lame as mainstream media can be). You don't want anybody to know about this stuff? Just the government? Give me a fucking break. Plook's apology may have been premature in your case.

I don't see a huge problem with vigilante groups in my country. Again, I can't speak for European countries.

How old are you?[/quote]

Sorry to be so harsh. I don't usually go off on people like that even when I strongly disagree with them as I do in this case. You probably are just some young kid with good intentions trying to figure things out. Just to restate my position.

The idea of a secret criminal justice system is a REALLY BAD IDEA.[/quote]
I don't think the crime rate is much higher in Europe where generally it is the public sector that has the power to issue and execute penalties and monitor criminals (and where taking the law in your own hand is illegal). So, it may appear as a bad idea to old Americans, but it seems to work quite a lot of places in Europe. (What the media does, I think, is not in itself a good argument for having public files about criminal records.) It is not synonymous with a "secret criminal system", but a transparent system where a balance is struck between the need for publicity about lengths of punishments (for the, hopefully, deterrent effect), and privacy due to a concern for the involved (victim and accused - who may be convicted or non-guilty - and everybody's families). As I said above, which I will gladly repeat, if some convicts like child abusers are judged to never stop their actions, they should never be let out (they should be permanently institutionalized). Letting them out and putting them on the internet seems like a very bad idea.

Thanks for guessing me as young and full of good intentions. That is, I hope, a very fitting description.

I turn 49 next year. How old are you?[/quote]

I turn 49 next year also. Look, we just disagree and I don't think we're even understanding each other 100%. I think you're talking about about an ideal world when I'm talking about the real world. Anyway, I'm sick of talking about perverts. Peace.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:42 pm 
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KillUgly wrote:
I turn 49 next year also. Look, we just disagree and I don't think we're even understanding each other 100%. I think you're talking about about an ideal world when I'm talking about the real world. Anyway, I'm sick of talking about perverts. Peace.

I am not talking about an ideal world, as if it is something fictional. I am talking about the real world as it exists in many European countries. But yes, we disagree on this. Let's indeed leave it at this. Peace from Denmark. 8)

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And by the way, Roy Estrada is there as well: Apparently assaulted a child in 1977 and in 1994. (I thought of this when Gail wrote here sometime that she had very compromising info about Roy.)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:03 pm 
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So your saying Lewd and lascivious acts is assalt on a child???


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:19 pm 
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That was what I wrote, but it may be a wrong word. English is not my first language. Please kill me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:20 pm 
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plook wrote:
So your saying Lewd and lascivious acts is assalt on a child?
no, he's not saying that; l&l can include people living together who are known not to be married


u-14 = victim under 14 years of age = child
6y = 6-year debt to society has been served
verification: quarterly means he's gotta check-in 4 times a year, forever [non-expire]
colorado & california offenses [out of state]

it appears texas discloses much more info than other states; some have records dating back over 15 years; mug-shots are posted for each offence & verification date



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better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:18 pm 
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How can a list like that be any good? Most people have enough material to end up on a list like that, even me (when you gotta go, you gotta go). If you qualify virtually ANYONE as possibly dangerous, there's no point really, is there? Aside from feeding paranoia thus selling more weapons?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:21 am 
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In Brazil there was this landmark case where the keepers of a kindergarten (daycare pre-school) in São Paulo were accused of child molesting... All the media and public opinion roared over it, we were all outraged naturally, made big waves, destroyed the lives of all involved and later, in the end it was all allegedly shown to be false allegations...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria#Escola_Base

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