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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:58 am 
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Below is an actual report, from one of our nation's finest who is in Iraq. This is what he has observed to be the real problem. He articulates
this in easy to understand, no nonsense English, so people like me will
truly understand the real situation in Iraq. Per his notes, we must
realize what we are shown on TV's nightly news is but a small slanted view of the truth (which means it may not be truth at all). Please read the attached before speaking another word of personal opinion concerning the U.S. envolvement in Iraq. --- Mark
> >
> >
> > PS: You might wish to e-mail him and thank him for the truth and his service to our land, you and me.
>
> > Subject: An American Soldier's view of the problems in Iraq

> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 7:47 AM
> >
> > Subject: My view of Iraq
> >

> > Here's his letter to us:
> >

> > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:17:06 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Bryant Shurley <batmanvshomer@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: My view of Iraq
> >
> >
> > The Following is an article about Bush's national address and troop
increase. I thought it was a good idea to let you all know what the
perspective is over here. I'm tired of hearing the media's skewed
version, the politicians squabbling over what they read in a report, and the average ill-informed American ranting about things he knows NOTHING about.
> > -----------------------------------
> > I've been over here a couple of months now, and I've learned more
about this country than a year's worth of watching CNN. I've sat in
mission briefs with Colonels, talked with village elders, had tea with Shieks, played with the kids. And I agree with the President. We need more troops and we need to take greater action.
> >
There are 3 major factions here. The Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds.
The Shiites are in the majority, but Saddam was a Sunni, so he kept the
Shiites in check. Everyone hates the Kurds, who are Christian and in the vast minority. The Kurds received the brunt of Saddam's murderous tyranny.
Now that Saddam is gone, the Shiites have taken control of Baghdad. The largely peaceful Sunnis are now the victims of radical Shiite terrorism. So the young Sunni men, who can no longer go to work and support their families, do what all young men would do. They join the Sunni militia and battle the Shiites. And thus the country sits on the brink of civil war.
> > But this war is between them. They largely do not concern themselves with the U.S. troops. The insurgents who battle the Coalition Forces are from outside the country. And the biggest problem down here isn't the insurgents. Its the politicians. The local politicians. Even though the country is controlled by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, downtown Baghdad is controlled by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The Shiites follow al-Sadr and thus the Prime Minister does what al-Sadr says. Think of it as if a warlord controlled New York and blackmailed the President into diplomatic immunity.
> > When 1st Cav (mainly 2/5 Cav) came here in 2004, they took downtown Baghdad (known as Sadr City) by force. It cost many lives, but after a year, we held an iron grip on the largest insurgent breeding ground in Iraq.
The insurgents were afraid of the Horse People, and rightfully so. But when 1st Cav left, al-Sadr influenced the Prime Minister to kick out the Coalition forces from that area of Baghdad. He said the Iraqi military forces could hold the city. But all that happened was al-Sadr regained control of his cty, and it is now a heavily guarded fortress. A place where insurgents and terrorists can train and stockpile arms. And we cannot go back in becuase the Prime Minister won't let us. Our hands are tied.

So where does al-Sadr get his backing? From Iran and Syria. Iran supplies him with money and Syria supplies the terrorists. The
insurgents that battle the Coalition Forces are from Syria, Somalia and dozens of other places outside of Iraq. Iraq is literally a terrorist breeding ground. They have terrorist and sniper schools here. Why not? They train by teaching them to attack the military forces here. And they have an endless supply of these training tools. They have factories in Sadr City to build bombs. Both Iran and Syria have openly proclaimed their number one goal in life is to destroy the great Western Devil and the little Western Devil (America and Britain).
Iran wants to control Iraq to further this purpose. Al-Sadr will get to
"run" the country and live like a king, but in reality Iran will pull
the puppet strings. Iran will have access to thousands of radical Shiites who will do whatever a l-Sadr tells them to. And Iraq will be used as a breeding ground for terrorism. Terrorism that will be targeted directly at America and Britain. The Iraq Study Group advised we should let Iran and Syria help with rebuilding? Bravo to President Bush for striking that idea down and vowing to keep those two countries out of Iraq.
So how do the Iraqi people feel about everything? Of course they
don't want the Americans here. But they would far rather have us here
than the Iranians. My platoon visited an average Sunni village on a patro l a few days ago. Their only source of income was to farm, as they could not go to the city to work for fear of violence. Many of the young men had already run off to join the militia for no other reason than to feed their families.
> > They had no school or hospital near them and the community was dying. The village elder's granddaughter was very sick and I was able to treat her.
Afterwards he invited me and my Platoon Leader to sit in his house and
have tea with him, and we talked about the situation.

The people want peace. The Shiites kill the Sunnis because al-Sadr
tells them to do so. The Sunnis fight back because they have no choice.
They are glad Saddam is dead (Sunni or not), but do not want to replace him with another dictator in a politician's clothes (which is what al-Sadr will become). And they especially don't want Iran in charge. Many innocent Iraqis will die if this h appens. These are the words that came out of the elder's mouth: "We do not want America here, and America does not want to be here.
But you cannot leave because the militias controll the country. America
must use the might of its giant army and sweep through, root out and destroy the militias. Then Iraq can be free and you can leave."
> >
What appears to have happened within our diplomatic community, is
that Prime Minister finally realizes that his days are numbered. If al-Sadr remains, he will be kicked to the curb. So hopefully he is about to
allow us to reenter Sadr City, root out and destroy the enemy. A dramatic troop increase will allow us to do this. And the Horse People are back and ready to finish what they started over 2 years ago.

If leave now, it will be a failure for democracy. Iran will contoll Iraq and the end result will be more terrorist attacks on America. The American people don't want soldiers dying over here, but its better than American civilians dying over there. Do NOT forget 9/11. They will do it again. The moment we loosen our grip on the noose, they will do it again.
And the only way to root out the evil here is to stop beating around the
bush, increase troops and destroy the insurgents once and for all. The
Iraqi government cannot do this on their own. The Iraqi security forces are inadequate for this task. We are the only ones who can stop al-Sadr.
------------------
Feel free to share this with whomever wants a real soldier's
opinion about the war.

SPC "Doc" Shurley 2/5 Cav, 1st CB
TRUTH is Unchangeable, No Matter What is Politically Correct


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:23 am 
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pedro1 wrote:
If leave now, it will be a failure for democracy. Iran will contoll Iraq and the end result will be more terrorist attacks on America. The American people don't want soldiers dying over here, but its better than American civilians dying over there. Do NOT forget 9/11. They will do it again. The moment we loosen our grip on the noose, they will do it again.
And the only way to root out the evil here is to stop beating around the
bush, increase troops and destroy the insurgents once and for all. The
Iraqi government cannot do this on their own. The Iraqi security forces are inadequate for this task. We are the only ones who can stop al-Sadr.


I severely oppose any claim that any US soldier should be in this country, or any other for that matter.

That last statment is a misleading falacy that Iraq or Iran had anything to do with 9/11. As a matter of fact you (US citzens) should all start to examine 9/11 closer and deeper, as it is used as an excuse to all US attrocities in the middle east.

That sounds more like govt propaganda campaign to soften the public's opinion to the ever approaching war with Iran, another nation which did not attack the US or any other country.

FUCK IMPERIALISM

Pedro, do you know this guy?

I wish to hear a REAL opinion from INSIDE Iraq: one from an Iraqi citzen... :evil:

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Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min 55373
Max 61060


http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:45 am 
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Mr. GG , I do not know this person , HOWEVER , I do have some nieces & nephews on my wife's side that tell the same story.
For the past 4 years , I have listened to ALL i can gleem from the news ( ie. radio , tv & internet ) AND from letters from those who are there in Iraq. A common watcher of Fox or Cnn will never know the complete story of what's going on inside Iraq or Afganistan because of the left wing media bias -without a little info from those who are there.
It's a well known fact that NOBODY wants this war won , if it was won , then people would have to give GWB & Blair some credit -- NOBODY wants to do that.
I prefer to make my opinions based on Frank's thought -- you can take my word for it - OR - you can find out for yourself !

From what I am told from family members inside Iraq - our hands are tied , much like in Vietnam -- we are walking that thin line so as not to piss ANYBODY off -- not the way to fight a war or for that matter , run a business in the corporate world.

Do I agree with what has been happening in Iraq ? NO
Am I realistic on what it will take to win - I like to think so.

If you want to base your opinions solely on FOX or CNN or the BBC -go ahead , but when someone proves you wrong - please be big enough to admit it.

I said 2 or more years ago ( on this forum )that Iraq should be split into 3 territories with the Shite , Sunni and Kurds contolling thier section of the country in a SOCIALIST agenda. Sadly democracy will never work with some countries and the middle east is full of them.
As for goverment propaganda - this email from this soldier was neither solicited nor paid for by ANY goverment - just one soldiers opinion of what's going on there. Believe if you want -- or not.
As far as Iran invading us in Iraq - I think time will tell the full story --- as far as the body count in Iraq - compare that number with the number of murders inside the US from illegal ( undocumented ) aliens every year - MORE than 50,000 a year - or is that gov't propaganda too?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:34 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
As far as Iran invading us in Iraq - I think time will tell the full story --- as far as the body count in Iraq - compare that number with the number of murders inside the US from illegal ( undocumented ) aliens every year - MORE than 50,000 a year - or is that gov't propaganda too?



Pedro, what do you mean invading us in Iraq?? Iraq is not US territory, so how can they invade you in Iraq? Iran intervention on Iraq other than political is US War propaganda. The evidence is documented by US journalists such as Alex Jones. It is like the story told on Way to Guantanamo, a movie about UK citzens of Paquistani origin arrested in Afeghanistan during the US invasion... Iran is a Iraq's neighbour, it is only normal to find Iranians over there...

Now, about the body count: How on earth do you want to relate the deaths of innocent Iraqi civillians to murders commited inside the US. I think you should acknowledge the inherent intrinsic violence in US culture (as seen on Bowlling for Columbine) and don't blame it solely on illegal immigrants...

The war on Iraq is unjustifiable by any means. A crime against humanity as severe as Saddam's... Should you hang GWB as well?!

Iraq nor Iran are anyhow implicated with 9/11 as the soldiers letter implies...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:25 pm 
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When munitions that have been developed in Iran have been exploded in the " Green Zone " , I would consider that a " sort " of invasion.

Now about the body count , how do you not consider the deaths of INNOCENT civilians by the hands of illegal aliens not to be devistating. It almost sounds as if you commend these killing as ok because of our "inherent intristic violence in US culture " !!!!
It is the Iraqi's ( and other insurgents from OTHER countries ) that are killing " innocent Iraqis. Do you believe that American GI's are going around Iraq burying bombs ??? You probably do.

Said it before and I'll say it again - When leaders of countries and peoples of countries rally round their flag and scream " DEATH TO AMERICA " , I don't look at countries that DON"T say this as being the problem.

I posted on this forum a list of terroristic activities that began in the middle 1900's and guess what ? The perpetrators were 95% from islamic countries.

This all happened long before Bush 1 or 2 were president and will continue to happen long after they are gone if nothing is done about it.

So sit back in you easy chair and when something terroristic happens to your country -- then we will talk about who's to blame.

Got to ask this question though -- if you want the US out of Iraq --- do you have an exit stratagy? Or are you willing to let certain leaders of the Middle East do as they wish to you and yours?

I beleive the " implimication " you find so offensive is the letter writers opinion about 911 and I can respect his opinion , even if I don't agree with it , or your opinion ---I can still respect it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:48 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:

Now about the body count , how do you not consider the deaths of INNOCENT civilians by the hands of illegal aliens not to be devistating. It almost sounds as if you commend these killing as ok because of our "inherent intristic violence in US culture " !!!!


Please, don't get me wrong. The death of innocents civillian of any nation is deplorable and despicable. I just don't see death by "illegal aliens'" hands as being qualitatively different from death by US citzens' hands. Anyway, my point is that this has absolutely nothing to do with 60.000+ dead Iraqis (this number might be as high as 250.000 in some estimates).

And it is not a matter of beliving, but being aware of the many US military attrocities like Haditha and other dirty little stories that are very frequently (although not as frequent as they should be) in the evening news...

The problem with his opinion on 9/11 is that it is completely misleading. 9/11 can't be a reason to justify the INVASION of Iraq. If a country must be accused of INVADING anywhere, it should be the US, not Iran...

The major international terrorist threat I am afraight of about my country is it being invaded by the US in the future...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:26 pm 
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I don´t believe nothing that comes from US Goverment & White House.
If they tell you they are a real danger you go & you believe it & the same for the rest of the world. They are lying. The same for 2000 US elections,9/11, Afganistan, Irak & now they go for Iran.

They are continuing with their strategy of the fear as far Bush is president.
They give a damn the civilians or US troops who are being killing with booms because these are not their children & they have to keep the budget for their petrol & war investors.

If they want a war they will go for a new one & keep US citizens rights under control. Don´t say a word against that because you will be accused of terrorist in your own country with CIA knocking at your door.
Do you think you are living in a democracy?

Probably the hate towards foreign US politics around the world comes from the fact that they have never respect other way of culture than yours & have been related always with force, violence & war. Do you remember Vietnam, & Central America in the 60´s thru & 80´s?
Also they support to Israel which is an ultraorthodox state & has done what they want from the 50´s to now in Middle East has to do to what it is happening now.

I´m more worried about the obscure core of the US president than any other goverment in the world. These are the real danger for the world itself & their war thought. :!:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:37 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
pedro1 wrote:

Now about the body count , how do you not consider the deaths of INNOCENT civilians by the hands of illegal aliens not to be devistating. It almost sounds as if you commend these killing as ok because of our "inherent intristic violence in US culture " !!!!


Please, don't get me wrong. The death of innocents civillian of any nation is deplorable and despicable. I just don't see death by "illegal aliens'" hands as being qualitatively different from death by US citzens' hands. Anyway, my point is that this has absolutely nothing to do with 60.000+ dead Iraqis (this number might be as high as 250.000 in some estimates).

And it is not a matter of beliving, but being aware of the many US military attrocities like Haditha and other dirty little stories that are very frequently (although not as frequent as they should be) in the evening news...

The problem with his opinion on 9/11 is that it is completely misleading. 9/11 can't be a reason to justify the INVASION of Iraq. If a country must be accused of INVADING anywhere, it should be the US, not Iran...

The major international terrorist threat I am afraight of about my country is it being invaded by the US in the future...


One might make the case that the American GI's are " illegal aliens " ...I don't happen to hold that position since American GI's are not chasing down innocent Iragi's and beating them till they are dead , crashing into their cars , robbing them , raping them and otherwise wreaking havoc because they know nothing will happen to them other than being deported . BUT ... illegal aliens do all of this , with no punisment in sight.
Yes, there are some GI's that go off the handle and there are steps in place to counter that such as court martials. And when I talk about the 50,000 deaths PER YEAR by the hands of illegal aliens , I would also have to tell you about the injuries , monies that are spent , time wasted standing in line at hospitals , and security measures that the commom US CITIZEN has to endure from these aliens. Don't get me wrong , I have nothing against LEGAL ALIENS , but a major part of our ecconomy is being wasted because of the ILLEGAL aliens. Almost 11 BILLION dollars.

Now , about 911 , I can still find no information that 911 was the sole reason for invading Iraq . It MAY have been there , but the major reasons were the inaccuarate reports of WMD's that were agreed upon by MANY countries and leaders.... even Bill & Hillary Clinton !
I believe the letter writers inclusion of 911 was that the implication , foundation and implemetation of that attack can be traced back to the middle east ....unless , you are one of many that believe it was an " inside job " by Bush & Cheney. Yes , 40% of Americans don't believe we ever went to the moon either.

About an invasion by the US in your country --Are you in Canada ? ..is that correct ?......What will probably happen in the long run , is a fullfillment of the stupid NAFTA & CAFTA treatys which will ultimatly combine all countries in North America , with more than genuine approval by the leaders of your country.
If Canada suffered a major setback because of some " catastrophy " , I'm sure that most people would welcome an 'invasion' by the US ( as most countries in the world do ) for help and relief.

I stated long ago that the US should bring their troops home from all around the world to guard our borders and let the 1st country to ask for our help , seek someone else to be the white knight.

The amount of money the US sends in relief to other parts of the world is staggering --- enough to BUY the world ....never hear about those " good " things , do you? It seems the world wants to blame the US for everything bad , but then screams when we don't react to 'their' situation in ' their ' way .

This bashing of the US has gone on far too long. We have a phrase here .. Don't Bite The Hand That Feeds You. But then you probably think EVERY American is as corrupt as those in politics.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:45 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
When munitions that have been developed in Iran have been exploded in the " Green Zone " , I would consider that a " sort " of invasion.

Now about the body count , how do you not consider the deaths of INNOCENT civilians by the hands of illegal aliens not to be devistating. It almost sounds as if you commend these killing as ok because of our "inherent intristic violence in US culture " !!!!
It is the Iraqi's ( and other insurgents from OTHER countries ) that are killing " innocent Iraqis. Do you believe that American GI's are going around Iraq burying bombs ??? You probably do.

Said it before and I'll say it again - When leaders of countries and peoples of countries rally round their flag and scream " DEATH TO AMERICA " , I don't look at countries that DON"T say this as being the problem.

I posted on this forum a list of terroristic activities that began in the middle 1900's and guess what ? The perpetrators were 95% from islamic countries.

This all happened long before Bush 1 or 2 were president and will continue to happen long after they are gone if nothing is done about it.

So sit back in you easy chair and when something terroristic happens to your country -- then we will talk about who's to blame.

Got to ask this question though -- if you want the US out of Iraq --- do you have an exit stratagy? Or are you willing to let certain leaders of the Middle East do as they wish to you and yours?

I beleive the " implimication " you find so offensive is the letter writers opinion about 911 and I can respect his opinion , even if I don't agree with it , or your opinion ---I can still respect it.
perdro1,
Now think of it logistically: 1) It means total US/UK occupation of Iraq on a scale that would be at minimum the same as that of the US occupation of Japan at the end of WWII with an additional military presence to guard Iranian and Syrian boarders -- something that can't be achieved on the US-Mexican boarders.
2) The mass displacement and relocation of three groups of people into three undefined territories with the expectation of no resistance. Not likely.
3) Another attempt at establishing a sovereign federal Iraqi government that in some dreamy scenario can be somehow be achieved. No luck so far and by now much a priori experience showing that it just cannot be done.

I'm not at all able to believe that after any exit strategy -- good, bad or barely workable -- had been implemented that Iraq would be an especially intense hotbed for "terrorist training organizations" and the "Better over there than over here" prattle has always sounded like the chest-pounding assertion heard in the '60s and early '70s that, "If we don't contain communism in Vietnam we'll be fighting it on our own shores!"

Obviously if "The Great Satan" (America) begins acting the part and the "Lesser Satan" (Britain) fills its role how do we not look like anything but fulfillments of those designations?

--Batchain

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:11 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
One might make the case that the American GI's are " illegal aliens " ...I don't happen to hold that position since American GI's are not chasing down innocent Iragi's and beating them till they are dead , crashing into their cars , robbing them , raping them and otherwise wreaking havoc because they know nothing will happen to them other than being deported . BUT ... illegal aliens do all of this , with no punisment in sight.


Pedro, US GI's are US GI's. They've (more precisely, their leaders) illegally invaded Iraq, because of Oil and geopolitical interests. No WMD, no link to Iraq. And, in case you are not aware of all the reports of killings and rapes, torture and all sorts of
attrocities commited by US GI's in Iraq, please make a forum search, or check the Depressing News Thread... Still, illegal immigrants killing US citzens DO NOT justify the killing of Iraqi citzens. It is comparing apples and oranges.

pedro1 wrote:
I believe the letter writers inclusion of 911 was that the implication , foundation and implemetation of that attack can be traced back to the middle east ....unless , you are one of many that believe it was an " inside job " by Bush & Cheney. Yes , 40% of Americans don't believe we ever went to the moon either.


Can you track 9/11's origins back to the middle east? So maybe the US should have invaded Israel, because it certainly had nothing to do with Iraq or Iran. So you mean the US is at war with the middle east?

pedro1 wrote:
About an invasion by the US in your country --Are you in Canada ? ..is that correct ?......


No, that's not correct. I am from Brazil.

pedro1 wrote:
If Canada suffered a major setback because of some " catastrophy " , I'm sure that most people would welcome an 'invasion' by the US ( as most countries in the world do ) for help and relief.


Maybe some people here would welcome an US invasion, because they are so brainwashed and politicians here don't help either.... But I certainly wouldn't...

pedro1 wrote:
I stated long ago that the US should bring their troops home from all around the world to guard our borders and let the 1st country to ask for our help , seek someone else to be the white knight.


That is a good advice, and you can start helping halting global warming as well...


pedro1 wrote:
The amount of money the US sends in relief to other parts of the world is staggering --- enough to BUY the world ....never hear about those " good " things , do you? It seems the world wants to blame the US for everything bad , but then screams when we don't react to 'their' situation in ' their ' way .


That is the US problem. You think you OWN the world. But you don't. Not withouth threatening the whole planet to nuclear armaggedon.

pedro1 wrote:
This bashing of the US has gone on far too long. We have a phrase here .. Don't Bite The Hand That Feeds You. But then you probably think EVERY American is as corrupt as those in politics.


I think you assume too much. What I do think is that, as baddy shows us everyday, US citzens are bombarded by a massive wave of corporate lies in order to accept passively the absurds of this terrible administration. If I had any real anti-US feeling, I would never spend my time listening to Frank Zappa and participating on his forum. I do, however, condemn the rising imperialistic campaign that is turning the world a less-safer place everyday.

The US do not feed us, and this is no gratuitous criticism for the US. It is one of great concearn for all nations. If you want to act as the World Police, and justify more troops in Iraq, you better put your helmet on and accept the fact that there will be opposing positions elsewhere and over there as well. Peace for the world, no more dirty fake-terror war. Since you are so much worried with US civlillan safety (and you should be) you better examine 9/11 closer and deeper and start asking the right questions...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Maybe some people here would welcome an US invasion, because they are so brainwashed and politicians here don't help either.... But I certainly wouldn't...



what would you DO gg?



what would you DO gg?



what would you DO gg?



what would you DO gg?


I'm gonna play amateur anthropologist here, because, well, it's what I've done all my life and I'd like to see more people understand each other rather than not. Pretty simple really.
<pardon my simplistic reductions>
On the one hand Pedro is terrified of foreigners taking over the country, raping and pillaging and so on.
On the other hand Mr Green Genes is terrified of an imperialist or milito-corporate America assuming control over everybody.

On the one hand Pedro I've never heard such a statistic with regard to illegal aliens murdering that many people in the states in, how long an amount of time? Where'd you find that? It stretches credulity, I'd say [but so do the reports of 60,000 deaths per year due to car wrecks here . . .],

but the argument/idea of illegal aliens forcing mayhem on the peaceable folk here does support much of yer position /argument --Right? and underscores the palpable fear you have shown for 'foreign elements' within the US that I've also seen you point out before numerously in other posts. But while I do have to certainly recognise it as a widespread 'American' cultural norm -- being a part of your defense of the home you love, I'm not gonna label what I see as this fear of your's cuz basically I don't want to piss you off. You talk sometimes like a xenophobe, but I don't think you really are, in person, not really.

GG on the other hand is coming from an altogether different point of view. But I think he fails to understand how American power abroad isn't controlled by the US or it's Abysmal Admin or the military. The Broad effect of US Policy, it's real world POWER abroad isn't as a cop, LOL we've shown we can't do that right now LMAO --and I'M NOT laughing at the troops--, it's instead the 'word' of commerce and media at whatever the cost, results or consequences, for a fee. And the big names and powers find markets where there were none with this particular brand of evangelical capitalism LOL, WHOSE DISTILLED variation you see in your town and it's limited threads of input. GG the picture they try to sell you is the dimmer version: for example, what I got out of the scare in Boston the other day with the lite-brite Ignignokt, the suspicious-looking 'hoax device' that the city of Boston wants to prosecute SOMEBODY for, was reported here as a terrorist plot one day, and an almost disconnected hoax the next day. All the press, on every freaking channel all told the story with a straight face. In fact, fox even got a live action scoop of the perps that were arraigned today here on youtube:
I call them American Folkheroes 2007 :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx2ytr2Oyv4

no, I'm not kidding.

further down the coil, somebody put up a response to the story on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRBcuYgm ... h_response
which kinda tells the truth, actually.

I look at it as an effective drill . . . well, except for the fact that Boston was the only city out of 10 that got the ignignokt's and it took Boston a couple weeks to put 2 and 2 together and come up with three.
But no, the cops all trotted out their stuff and got a couple demolition drills and the bomb squads and all the appropriate authorities called and questioned and treated it all so seriously but they all just really wanna know is who leaked the story . . . but managed to retell it as an 'Appropriate Response In The War On Terror' -- we're serious here, y'know . . .

Really, this should show us the reality of the bogusness of Homeland Security. We can't effectively keep the ultimo-mysterioso-arabo-fascisto-franco terrorists out of our PORTS Pedro, how the f are we gonna build and maintain some GREAT WALL OF TEXAS to keep desperate people from risking their lives to get here or the boat people that we've witnessed all our lives? Huh, it doesn't square with reality. And IMHO I think there needs to be a better division of labor or distribution of proceeds, incl health care for everybody. AND THIS means taking from the rich and helping the poorer. I agree that the country is too crowded. EVERY country is crowded unless it's too cold or too hot. We spin a mighty big headwind all over the world -- the $$ is the world's economic standard, still, for how many years? --and we have for a long time now, and we've poked our dicks in places maybe we shouldn'ta, especially over the last 100 years. But the crows of the other field of whichever stripe aren't gonna go away and as America The Beautiful continues to stand for the world's cop and cash cow, AS LONG AS WE LET OUR GOV'Tdo this and pretend it's the fosterer of oil interests and the 'security' and media overlords the world over, then we're gonna have this problem. The world is gonna want, heck, HAS BEEN WANTING an ultimate arbiter to come and solve things -- like we keep trying and failing to do, and to be their cash cow. If we can't or won't do this --OR put up a strong actuality of Swiss-like Neutrality, for a couple generations LOL, then the world will stay pissed at us and continue to use us as cops and a cash cow. While we waste away with the big boys taking their $$ and investing in overseas ventures.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:54 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
There are 3 major factions here. The Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds....etc etc etc


that's just an old war tactic only an stupid would not see or diny in their own benefit, US knew it before invading irak, invade divide and win,
let them kill themselfs and then claim you save them
that confrontation should have been sooner or later, but US troups has nothing to do in there or anywhere, it's stupid to go to a place where there is ancestral troubles, invade kill the dominant force and the say:
-oh look the real problem are them and their sunnis shiites and kurds
don't be such an ass please

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:00 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Maybe some people here would welcome an US invasion, because they are so brainwashed and politicians here don't help either.... But I certainly wouldn't...




On the one hand Pedro I've never heard such a statistic with regard to illegal aliens murdering that many people in the states in, how long an amount of time? Where'd you find that? It stretches credulity, I'd say [but so do the reports of 60,000 deaths per year due to car wrecks here . . .],

.

By Frosty Wooldridge
November 9, 2004
NewsWithViews.com

In 2003, according to the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles, 57,600 cars were stolen in Phoenix. It is now the car-jacking capital of the world. Most were SUV’s and pickup trucks. At a conservative average of $15,000.00 per vehicle, owner losses exceeded $864 million. Insurance companies in the state suffered incredible claims from policyholders.

Worse, how would you like to walk out of your home or business to see your car gone? Imagine the hassle, violation of your hard work and disrespect for your well being.

Where did those vehicles go? Who stole them? Take a guess. Arizona is the temporary home of 500,000 illegal aliens. They cost Arizona taxpayers over $1 billion annually in services for schools, medical care, welfare anchor babies, loss of tax base and prisons. Illegals use those vehicles for smuggling more people and drugs from around the world into our country. When the vehicles are recovered, they are smashed-up wrecks in the desert. If not found, they have new owners south of the border as thieves drive the cars through the desert and into Mexico as easily as you drive your kids to soccer practice. THAT’s how porous our borders are!

The chilling costs of illegal migration reach like an octopus into every aspect of our lives. Illegal aliens displaced American workers at a cost in excess of $133 billion dollars last year according to Harvard Professor George Borjas. College and high school kids cannot find a summer job in yard care, landscape, fast food or service jobs. Why? Illegal aliens work them at a third the wage and often, under the table.

Not only do your kids not have jobs; you’re paying taxes for illegal aliens who are not paying taxes.

Annually, 75 percent of drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion hard currency that leaves our country for good. In addition, our tax dollars pay $80 billion for the War on Drugs each year. It is a war that hasn’t been won in the past 30 years and drugs are as available today to your teenager as they were in 1970.

When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons—not to mention TV, movies, weight rooms and other entertainment—they enjoy while being incarcerated.

Is your blood boiling at this point? How about illegal alien anchor babies? Over 300,000 women annually arrive pregnant and drop them on U.S. soil. You pay food, housing, medical and schooling for them to age 18 PLUS their mother. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, average annual cost per child K-12 is $7,161.00 and exceeds $109 billion annually per cycle of anchor babies. That’s your money given out to 300,000 moms and their kids annually and all they did was get pregnant and birth that child on U.S. soil.



If you haven’t had a heart attack by now, you’ll need Tums after this figure. The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs. With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars. (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, August 2004)

How about the $56 billion in pure cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries last year and every year? That’s after their kids enjoyed free education, free lunches and free medical care paid for by you. Mexico receives $15 billion annually from its worker drones. No wonder Vicente Fox sent us 9.2 million illegal alien Mexicans so far.

The lifetime net fiscal drain—taxes paid minus services used—for an adult immigrant is $55,200.00 according to Carrying Capacity Network. Who makes that money up? You do! Your work! Your taxes!

With a minimum of 15 million illegal aliens in our country, these figures are the tip of the iceberg. Average bilingual education is $1,200.00 per illegal alien student. Get this! We educate 1.1 million illegal alien children each year. Do the math! Ready for another anvil dropped on your toe fact? You paid $27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English in 2003.

An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care. Who is Texas? You, the taxpayer, that’s who! Because you, in your state, pay commensurate medical care according to your illegal alien population. Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003. What is it in your state?

What are the consequences? One in two adult African-Americans in New York is unemployed. African-American children’s poverty grew by 50 percent since 1999. Why? Their dads can’t find work.

It costs you, the taxpayer, $68 billion a year JUST to pay for the resettlement of legal immigrants.

Fellow Americans, we are $7.384 trillion in debt as of November 1, 2004. This year’s budget deficit exceeds $413 billion. Our trade deficit stands at $400 billion. Our consumer debt exceeds $2 trillion and our average credit card carries an $8,000.00 balance. Our U.S. government borrows $1.6 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat. Have you ever heard of the Titanic? We are taking on heavy immigration numbers while we’re being financially bled to death. Are we in trouble or what?

Who brings this fiscal nightmare into America? Take a guess. The majority of your Congress! President George W. Bush himself! Tom Ridge, who won’t guard our borders from this invasion, but gets his orders from Bush! Illegals are arriving at over 4,000 per night according to Time Magazine, September 12, 2004, "Who Left the Door Open?" I quote, "That total of illegal aliens flooding into the United States this year will total three million—enough to fill 22,000 737 Boeing airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year." Don’t you think with that many illegals crossing nightly that anyone with a brain would send troops to our border to protect from an invasion? Since we just re-elected the same Congress and president, you can expect more of the same.

You can count on your corporations devouring cheap labor as they send you to the unemployment lines. Additionally, they pay PAC groups to keep senators and congressmen in their back pocket. How do I know? Only 22 companies in 2003 were taken to court for hiring illegal aliens. None went to jail. However, it’s a $10,000.00 fine per illegal alien hired and up to five years in prison. You would think that would deter corporations. Not when they’ve bought off enforcement!

Who else figures in this grand scheme? Your governors and mayors who provide sanctuary laws for illegal aliens! Mayor Bloomberg of New York City.

Governor Baldacci of Maine! Governor Bill Owens of Colorado! Mayor Hickenlooper of Denver! Mayor of Los Angeles! Mayor of San Francisco! Mayor of Chicago! Mayor of Miami! How do I know? All those cities and dozens more give sanctuary to illegal aliens with Special Order 40.

Illegals remain in our country with exemption from arrest—yet, they are federal criminals!

Can you blame millions of desperate people for coming illegally to America? Hardly! Do you think they will stop coming since the world adds 80 million annually of poor, hopeless people from war torn, ravaged and impoverished Third World countries?

Not a chance! This is the land of free milk and honey. As long as our leaders allow the invasion and not enough Americans speak up, you can expect 12 million more illegal aliens in the next four years. Who pays for this invasion of your country? You do!

As a final note, if you’re as sick of this nation-destroying dilemma as I am, go to my web site. I’ll send you an action letter with 17 effective points to change our nation’s suicidal course. Whatever your talent, you will become a part of this movement to save our country from this disaster being brought to us by our leaders. You may send that action email out to your friends and they can send it to their friends. As Americans we must link arms, hearts and minds to take action to preserve our country and force our leaders to stop this illegal immigration madness. It’s called a ‘consciousness shift’ and it’s going to take every one of us. That means everything you do, COUNTS!




That report is 3 years old - think it's gotten better? Plenty more info out there if ya look.



http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/te ... ctims.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=53103
http://www.thedustininmansociety.org/no ... eaths.html
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Yeah, blaming a higher crime rate, loss of jobs and a poor economic situation entirely on foreigners and immigrants... a timeless tactic that has worked well throughout history for *cough* certain other regimes.

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Hey pedro -
Please let us know the origin of the original email in the first post. I'm guessing that you recognize that it sounds at least a little propaganda-ey, don't you think? I try to listen to all sides of the story and that email seems to hit more than a few of the Republican hot buttons. Of course, there is no reason why a Republican can't be writing from Iraq, but the point of having a letter from the front lines is that it is an unvarnished first hand account and this letter seems... varnished. Just my impression.

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
pedro1 wrote:
One might make the case that the American GI's are " illegal aliens " ...I don't happen to hold that position since American GI's are not chasing down innocent Iragi's and beating them till they are dead , crashing into their cars , robbing them , raping them and otherwise wreaking havoc because they know nothing will happen to them other than being deported . BUT ... illegal aliens do all of this , with no punisment in sight.


Quote:
Pedro, US GI's are US GI's. They've (more precisely, their leaders) illegally invaded Iraq, because of Oil and geopolitical interests. No WMD, no link to Iraq. And, in case you are not aware of all the reports of killings and rapes, torture and all sorts of
attrocities commited by US GI's in Iraq, please make a forum search, or check the Depressing News Thread... Still, illegal immigrants killing US citzens DO NOT justify the killing of Iraqi citzens. It is comparing apples and oranges.


I hear that arguement all the time and I'm still looking for that bargin at the local gas station. The only ones that made out on that deal were Kofi Ana's peopel and the " oil for food " quagmire.
Once again , US GI's are burying bombs and driving cars laced with bombs into shopping meccas ???
pedro1 wrote:

I believe the letter writers inclusion of 911 was that the implication , foundation and implemetation of that attack can be traced back to the middle east ....unless , you are one of many that believe it was an " inside job " by Bush & Cheney. Yes , 40% of Americans don't believe we ever went to the moon either.


Quote:
Can you track 9/11's origins back to the middle east? So maybe the US should have invaded Israel, because it certainly had nothing to do with Iraq or Iran. So you mean the US is at war with the middle east?


I would say that. People in California did not want to go to war while people in Tennesee did. Do you think Iraqi's and / or Brazillian's denote the difference ? As far as Israel - they have blood on their hands as well. I believe it would be foolish NOT to believe that Israel was set up in 1948 as a foothold for American interests in the middle east.

pedro1 wrote:
About an invasion by the US in your country --Are you in Canada ? ..is that correct ?......


No, that's not correct. I am from Brazil.

pedro1 wrote:
If Canada suffered a major setback because of some " catastrophy " , I'm sure that most people would welcome an 'invasion' by the US ( as most countries in the world do ) for help and relief.


Maybe some people here would welcome an US invasion, because they are so brainwashed and politicians here don't help either.... But I certainly wouldn't...

pedro1 wrote:
I stated long ago that the US should bring their troops home from all around the world to guard our borders and let the 1st country to ask for our help , seek someone else to be the white knight.


Quote:
That is a good advice, and you can start helping halting global warming as well...


Get China on board that ship as well , then we'll talk about that " problem "

pedro1 wrote:
The amount of money the US sends in relief to other parts of the world is staggering --- enough to BUY the world ....never hear about those " good " things , do you? It seems the world wants to blame the US for everything bad , but then screams when we don't react to 'their' situation in ' their ' way .


Quote:
That is the US problem. You think you OWN the world. But you don't. Not withouth threatening the whole planet to nuclear armaggedon
.

pedro1 wrote:
This bashing of the US has gone on far too long. We have a phrase here .. Don't Bite The Hand That Feeds You. But then you probably think EVERY American is as corrupt as those in politics.


I don't think I own the world and neither do common Americans .... talk about assuming too much ...


I
Quote:
think you assume too much. What I do think is that, as baddy shows us everyday, US citzens are bombarded by a massive wave of corporate lies in order to accept passively the absurds of this terrible administration. If I had any real anti-US feeling, I would never spend my time listening to Frank Zappa and participating on his forum. I do, however, condemn the rising imperialistic campaign that is turning the world a less-safer place everyday.

The US do not feed us, and this is no gratuitous criticism for the US. It is one of great concearn for all nations. If you want to act as the World Police, and justify more troops in Iraq, you better put your helmet on and accept the fact that there will be opposing positions elsewhere and over there as well. Peace for the world, no more dirty fake-terror war. Since you are so much worried with US civlillan safety (and you should be) you better examine 9/11 closer and deeper and start asking the right questions...


911 was a natural response to many years of meddling outside of US borders. Will it happen again ? You bet. Do we deserve it ?? Probably.
Over the years I have heard so much about what the US should NOT have done , but no one can tell me what we should do NOW , without going into the past and saying you shouldn't have done.... blah blah.
We are all looking for peace in the world , but if people only point is that BUSH LIED , where do you go from that? Quit dwelling on what has happened - give me ideas on what COULD happen.
Like I have said - bring the boys home , but be prepared to have the boys STAY home -- even if you need them , whoever you are.
I , for one , would love to see the world STOP asking the US for protection , food , ecconmic relief and help.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:54 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
Yeah, blaming a higher crime rate, loss of jobs and a poor economic situation entirely on foreigners and immigrants... a timeless tactic that has worked well throughout history for *cough* certain other regimes.


http://www.autonoomcentrum.nl/overdegre ... ex_en.html


Yes , it seems that it's not just a US problem :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:59 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Hey pedro -
Please let us know the origin of the original email in the first post. I'm guessing that you recognize that it sounds at least a little propaganda-ey, don't you think? I try to listen to all sides of the story and that email seems to hit more than a few of the Republican hot buttons. Of course, there is no reason why a Republican can't be writing from Iraq, but the point of having a letter from the front lines is that it is an unvarnished first hand account and this letter seems... varnished. Just my impression.


This is the soldier's email , I believe.
From: Bryant Shurley <batmanvshomer@yahoo.com>
SPC "Doc" Shurley
2/5 Cav, 1st CB

I have an idea - let's write him and have him contact the forum directly and maybe we can all see where he's coming from and / or getting "paid " for his comments. ok?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:07 am 
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Sir , I recently was forwarded a letter presumably from you as to the situation in Iraq , where , I believe , you are stationed.
I am a member of the Frank Zappa Forum and have shared your thoughts with other forum members.
There seems to be a consenus that you might have too much of a ' Republican ' slant to your thinking and I was hoping you would come to the forum( http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 620#261620 ), read a little , and comment on what you see and maybe shed some light on what is really going on from a NON-BIASED point of view.
I would also welcome any one else you can find with you to share their opinions as well.
Thank you for your time and effort.
Stay safe.
Pedro1

Let's hope we can get a reply


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:19 am 
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Good idea pedro! Hope it works! :)

On the chance of a reply... Even if you are a Republican, you are still welcome here to voice your opinions whether you think we'll like them or not! I'm sure there are Democrats, Republican and the others in Iraq.

Thanx Manx

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:36 am 
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I am registered independant and in the last elections , I voted across the ticket for the PERSON , not the party.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:40 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:




. You talk sometimes like a xenophobe, but I don't think you really are, in person, not really.

[/quote]


Now that's funny -- I'll have to share that with my father who came from Sicily through the " FRONT " door and my mother who is native American :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:43 am 
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pedro1 wrote:
I am registered independant and in the last elections , I voted across the ticket for the PERSON , not the party.


I understand. I'm familiar with your affinities. I meant the Republican comment to our potential guest. Ya know, welcome and all, such as we are! ;)

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Ok -- yeah I would love to see a reply from this GI - might be very thought provoking -- :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:10 am 
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I've been glancing in at this thread, but life is in overdrive right now so I haven't had time to put down some specific things that very much need to be said....but until I get a chance to get in here, (lol, maybe about Tuesday or so), here are some other places one can get input from Iraq war vetrans...

http://www.ivaw.org/faq

There are letters and articles from vetrans there, but I want to comment on item #3 on the above page. it's the great untold story, it cannot be gleaned from the news because it is not on the news.

The enviorment must be changed before the situation can change and that needs 250, 000 Americans removed from Iraq, as well as the reasons we went there in the first place to be removed. If the whole situation is changed on the ground to one where the people have a job and some hope, if they have their own country and not a client state, THEN things can change.

Maybe more on this later, but on the news it's all about "removing the troops or not," but that's not what it's all about. American interests and the client state government must be removed, then the ammo, then the troops can be removed as peacekeeping forces, largely Muslem, come in from surrounding areas. People have to have hope, and with half of them unemployed, they're angry and without hope. Part of hope is employment is massive US aid. We're going to have to spend 9 billion a month on aid instead of $9 billion a month on more force.

There is also a false presupposition on the news that this third and a half attempt of a client state government has the support of the people, and shoring it up with force is going to help something.

I had posted some previous charts of the breakdown of thre opinion of the Iraqi people and people in the surrounding states on how many Iraqi's want the US in there. We're largely seen as occupiers (and the 14 bases will never stick), and more than 90% of Iraqi's want us out now. I think we should perfer the opinion of the Iraqi citizens over the TV war drums and trumpets, and "can't leave" war selling campaign. If 92% of Iraqis say they'd be better off without the US in there, then believe them. Also, 47% of Iraqi's feel it's OK to take a few pot shots at our troops.

I'm getting long here, I really had some fundamental problems with some points in th eabove, I hope to have some time soon to get back in here and address them...

Meanwhile, here's some MORE LINKS for articles and letters from Iraqi vetrans and their families...

http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

http://www.mfso.org/
Support our troops, defund the war.

http://www.gsfp.org/

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/about_vfp.vp.html

http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/

Oh yeah, on the civilan casualties, The Iraqi body count is an indisputable list of names accounted for for people in the wrong place (Iraq), at the wrong time (now). As happens in war, many more are wiped out and never make it to the morge to get on the Iraqi Body Count list, (many are even utterly disintegrated).

I tend to think the more scientific Lancet report (in conjunction with Columbia University and Johns Hopkins / Bloomburg School of Health), has compiled a far more accurate assessment of the civilian casualties in Iraq. We've had a lot of wars to refine the science.

The first Lancet report BEFORE the 2004 elections put the civilian toll over 100, 000, with about 82, 000 civilians killed directly by US bombs and artillery fire.

Recently, the Lancet released another report which estimates the civilian death toll at around 650, 000.

More here:
http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/image ... 694919.pdf

and here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lancet+report+iraq

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Last edited by baddy on Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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