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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:00 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Just another blow hard making big bucks in the USA, and has the nerve to complain when most are working their buts off to make ends meet.



Dude I have been laid-off twice in the last 2 years, this is the first time I worked more than 2 weeks in a row since last August, my wife has been off with a hand surgery and was released from the hospital while gone, my daughter is pregnant. I work my ass off for my money and when I work I am paid well because I know what the fuck I am doing and you will get no apologize from me for that.

By the way almost 18 years ago to the day I arrived in Nor Cal on the Greyhound bus ride from hell with everything I owned in 2 trash bags, I know how to struggle and start over.

You shouldn’t minimize someone until you know what you are dealing with, that’s the kind of mistake that can make you look stupid and cost you…I have done it myself before, but I tend to learn when I make one, I hope the same for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Huck_Phlem wrote:
You are right about that my friend. There are strange things afoot at the Circle K dude! Have a good trip Plook. :lol:



Thanks Huck, it turns out they have a cool free internet connection at the cheep hotel I am in and this piece of crap laptop my company gave me is working ok (this thing is a step above a stone tablet with electricity going to it...lol). I head further south tomorrow morning and then on to the coast, man I love the beach. I have to go buy a camera, I forgot my wife’s and you can not use a phone in a Central Office it can mess the electronic equipment up so no phone camera. Fortunately the audit I did tonight did not have a lot of defects or require a lot of pictures, for a pretty big job these guys did good. Hopefully I will have internet access tomorrow too, talk to ya later!... :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:04 am 
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I rail about the info gap, the media confusements and so on because
it always seems the big stories get away until it is too late to
address them head on anymore once the media has got ahold of it
and flogged it to fit in their ever-ongoing scorecard of say,
'who's up and who's down'.

Lemme explain. Robert Krentz was killed in March by an unknown assailant.
Both he and his dog were shot on his own property, mending a fence near the
border with Mexico. A fence for animals, not people.
Immediately, FOX claims it was probably an illegal immigrant.
fox:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/29/il ... a-rancher/
Other's with a better idea of the local situation think it was more probably
drug smugglers or a drug 'scout'.
This story of the murdered rancher seems to be the cause that broke the
camel's back of the AZ state legislature in causing it to push through their
sweeping new immigration law that is currently spreading sedition and paranoia
and hardening people's resolve in every direction and in all sorts of ways all
across the country.
The story of the rancher's death was pushed hard by FOX news and Michelle Malkin,
initially, both consistently offering the illegal immigrant angle and the ramifications
of that without offering any other viewpoint for several days. The Arizona press
did a better job logically finding a motive for someone to be out there and with a weapon,
who was not a US border cop, a local AZ cop or say some target practicing Swedish tourists.
from the AZ daily star
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/ ... d6834.html

Local law enforcement thinks this was a result of drug traffickers as 290 pounds
of pot were found on the property and eight people were arrested a few days before.

All the evidence points to drug trafficking for the killing of this humanitarian
cattle rancher.
Drug traffickers aren't trying to immigrate for one thing.
Immigrants don't usually carry guns even when they try to sneak in.
Nor do they travel by themselves.
Law enforcement says it was probably a single assailant.
Most pundits will say that that the killing of Mr Krentz was what largely precipitated
the new law in Arizona that I say, has caused such a huge distraction from the real issues.

I lay these facts out pedantically and very carefully because the rest
of the story and my solution is comparatively easy.

Everybody knows that the smuggling of illegal drugs from Mexico, by the cartels
is what is funding the civil war in Mexcio. They sell dope here and buy guns
for use in combatting the Federales in Mexico. since the war has escalated
there (~2008) violent crimes have actually decreased in AZ. Except in Joe Arpaio's district.
And crimes by illegal immigrants has dropped as well, but dramatically so as compared
with crimes by citizens. This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a war going on
across the border in Mexico. But it also happens to be the
very time that some people in Arizona in particular want to assert the right to powers
that before now has been assumed only by the USGOV. They say the FEDs have failed them
and so they must stand up and defend themselves, abrogate the power of the FEDs to
be able to deport at will essentially. But there are many legal experts and law enforcement
police chiefs with decades of experience in AZ and with cross border problems who agree
that demanding proof of citizenship won't help in finding where all the immigrants just
went and won't address the smuggling issue. Human or otherwise.
Everybody knows that INS or FBI can't catch all the smmugglers OR the immigrants.
Part of that is because there are two tracks. Smuggling people and smugling drugs
are two different things and even treated differently by the US Border guard.
But not by Fox News. In fact, according to them this is not really a drug smuggler/cartel issue, not a war
on drugs in the US issue even, but instead it is painted as broad-based an illegal
immigrant problem as they can fan it.
Qui bono?
For now, Joe Arpaio.
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2 ... -wave.html
http://newmexicoindependent.com/53176/c ... cs-suggest
http://voices.kansascity.com/node/8867

Now while I'll agree that a healthy discussion about immigration, migrant workers,
questions of amnesty or not etc are all long overdue, it's long past time we recognize
the problems for what they are. The violent crime that DOES spill over into the US
associated with cross border traffick is with drugs not people.
If Arizona were to take a real libertarian step
and make pot legal tomorrow, the incentive for the border traffic in pot would cease.
If that were to be regulated by whatever way the want to, like California, like Colorado,
the cartels would have to come up with another source for cash overnight. And the violent crime from
cross border traffic would cease. The cartels would have to start buying Netflix chains or something.
I look at this issue much as I did the struggle against the lottery and gambling houses,
even bingo. Twenty years ago Kansas was one of the last to legalize gaming and give it
restrictions. It turned out to be a big revenue bringer for the state. People's reluctance
was due to morals that they learned from the generation or two before. Gambling causes BIG
problems. Turns out, trying to prohibit it made it worse. The drug war is several times worse and
Mexico is fighting our war for us. We can stop funding the cartels if we want to. One way or another.
And one of those ways, the way we've always tried it -- Prohibition -- is what has brought us here.
Unless you watch FOX news and listen to Karl Rove.
Anymore I almost feel the same about Cokie Roberts and Chris Matthews.
They'll tell you who is up and who is down this week in the beltway insider war of words,
if they think Obama can or should add another topic to his plate of national disasters or what kind of a wedge they think the Republicans will try and force into the discussion to prove their 'convictions' this week,

but they won't ask why we can't end funding the Mexican drug cartels?

I rail about the info gap, the media confusements and so on because
it always seems the big stories get away until it is too late to
address them head on anymore once the media has got ahold of it
and flogged it to fit in their ever-ongoing scorecard of say,
'who's up and who's down'.

in fact, however for example, violent crimes are flat in Arizona and the state in effect giving a largely unfunded mandate to the local police will make their jobs more impossible not less since some on the right and the far right in Arizona seem to think they can just wish and the cops will be able to tackle local as well as national 'law enforcement' however they think they can write it to soothe their fears. That's not how it works.
How's that Great Wall of Arizona comin' people?
http://azcapitoltimes.com/blog/2010/05/ ... s-are-low/

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:54 am 
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That was a long winded analysis of the problem, you are dreaming if you think legalization of pot in AZ would stop the car tell, you idiot, Az is the easiest place to cross over for them to smuggle, to supply ALL of the us. The argument is 1, to seal the border , to stop the drugs, 2 to stop the immigration, this is a huge problem, R Regan made it much worse with his amnesty program and now we have a huge economic problem, instead of re:reporting the news and finding fault with fox news how about a solution or two? The biggest problem is that politicians are making hey on this subject, you know the old Chicago voting style one side wants them to come in any way they can to vote the other is afraid of losing votes by sealing the border.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:14 am 
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Most people's problems and Rothchild's money,
I would be the guy most funny.


Really, most folks don't know nothing and, they don't wanna know!

And then the language, where is that sound coming from when it's spoken in a palatal, guttural noise? from the abdomen or the bottomless pit?

You keep on fighting for the @#"µ@ crumbs, I prepare for the wEartht, roffle-dee-ploff.

PM me, BS, if you dare, I have given up my favorite planet.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Really? How can you be two places at once when you are really nowhere at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:06 pm 
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From the last few posts I believe the powers that be have achieved the desired effect, the common folk are all fighting among themselves and begging for more freedom to be circumnavigated in order to protect our victim existence’s...my god, that bait and switch crap still works... :!:


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 Post subject: Think! It's still legal!
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Hey! npr thought it important to remind people today of where the cartel gets the lion share of their cash. Looks as though I'm right on time today.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126978142

As far as the immigrants we should be down there telling them all,
"Beinvenidos, Willkommen, Get in here outta that sun!"
Because with 25 million + undocumented workers and illegal immigrants,
people whio actually WANT to pay taxes and pay into social security,
generations of them, they can help pay into social security and pare down health care costs too!

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:26 pm 
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punknaynowned wrote:
Hey! npr thought it important to remind people today of where the cartel gets the lion share of their cash. Looks as though I'm right on time today.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126978142

As far as the immigrants we should be down there telling them all,
"Beinvenidos, Willkommen, Get in here outta that sun!"
Because with 25 million + undocumented workers and illegal immigrants,
people whio actually WANT to pay taxes and pay into social security,
generations of them, they can help pay into social security and pare down health care costs too!


I heard this while I was driving, I wan't surprized to hear that the Mexican army is supporting one of the cartells over the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:59 pm 
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..and meanwhile Obama is giving blowies to Philippe in the oval orifice.... errr...office

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:22 am 
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Plook wrote:
From the last few posts I believe the powers that be have achieved the desired effect, the common folk are all fighting among themselves and begging for more freedom to be circumnavigated in order to protect our victim existence’s...my god, that bait and switch crap still works... :!:



And your solution is?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:15 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Plook wrote:
From the last few posts I believe the powers that be have achieved the desired effect, the common folk are all fighting among themselves and begging for more freedom to be circumnavigated in order to protect our victim existence’s...my god, that bait and switch crap still works... :!:



And your solution is?


Does making observations actually require having solutions...and for that matter does every perceived problem require a solution...I think sometimes stuff just is and things happen and maybe are best left alone, things have a way of working out over time, but thats just me... :|


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:00 am 
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Plook wrote:
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Plook wrote:
From the last few posts I believe the powers that be have achieved the desired effect, the common folk are all fighting among themselves and begging for more freedom to be circumnavigated in order to protect our victim existence’s...my god, that bait and switch crap still works... :!:



And your solution is?


Does making observations actually require having solutions...and for that matter does every perceived problem require a solution...I think sometimes stuff just is and things happen and maybe are best left alone, things have a way of working out over time, but thats just me... :|



No but you sure run our system and the USA into the ground to the point that it is not an observation, and in most of your posts it is just a rant by a drama queen, stick to music , try, Spirit; Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:40 am 
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Area Zone 5.1, now, this is proper dragon-scales, hair-raising reign of some drama from the sky.

Never felt the desire to rescue the world? or at least changing it, so that it comes nearer to your dreams? well, you'll find all things abundant in your mind and...what was me goin' to say... dolby surreal sounds-aboundses. Apropos, humans can perceive a o.5dB signal, a whisper in 1oo feet, and only a little better the quantum-realm would get in our way! Actually are all arrangements in the world truly fully fantastic. ..a cloud-whisp is ey fairly good example...


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:24 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA unfortunately for you, with responses like your last one, you lose any sort of contest you seem to think you are in by default. I wasn't even trying and being rather generous...I thought, but that is what happens when you show up ill equipped, sorry my friend you have to do better than that... 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:57 pm 
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US police chiefs pan Arizona immigration law

A group of US police chiefs has told US Attorney General Eric Holder that Arizona's controversial immigration law could increase crime.


The law requires police officers to question people about their immigration status during a "legal stop", if the officers have reasonable suspicion the person is in the US illegally.

The chiefs said it would take resources away from the fight against crime.

They warned it would break down trust between the police and the community.

In an hour-long meeting with the US attorney general, nine police chiefs expressed their concern over the controversial law due to come into effect in Arizona on 29 July.
'Breakdown of trust'

A joint Wall Street Journal/NBC poll conducted at the beginning of May suggested 64% of adults backed the measure.

Fifteen states are now considering adopting similar laws.

Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said such laws would "actually increase crime, not decrease crime. Witnesses won't come forward."

He said checking people's immigration status would break down the trust police forces had been building with communities for decades.

Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank said he felt the law would "divert our resources away from things we're supposed to be doing - that is, fighting crime and providing safety of local communities".

Minneapolis Police Chief Tim Dolan said immigrants could become too scared to call the police to report a crime for fear of having their immigration status checked.

US President Barack Obama has been critical of the Arizona law and has asked Attorney General Holder to look into the possibility of filing a court challenge against it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/latin_america/10168989.stm

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:09 pm 
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What a bunch of Crap, political hyperbole, shit the feds just sent 1200 troops ,that oughta scare the hell out of the illegals.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:20 pm 
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We watch an escallation in hostility between victim and victim,
while the trough of cheap labor moves from Mexico to China,
and the few skim the cream.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 10:53 am 
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I was PMing with a forumer about this stuff and then got lost in a computer reload...and then I thought it might be interesting to post about it here.

If we don't deal with removing NAFTA, the surge of Mexicans across the border will of course continue...fighting a symptom is useless.

Of course the current crop of upper monied, corrupt D's and R's isn't going to do anything about NAFTA, so of course the wave eill continue, (again, a "less evil" voting problem we have here).

I figure we've been hit with the triple whammy:

Whammy one, NAFTA (and WTO) ratified in Dec 1994 causing mass exodus of manufacturing and agriculture to Mexico, "the great sucking sound of jobs leaving the country" as Ross Pero put it in the debates. So we have to start looking for jobs, and there's a ripple effect.

Whammy two, the influx of big commercial aggriculture and manufacturing drives millions of Mexicans off their farms while at the same time tens of thousands of small businesses close as they can't compete with corporate manufacturing, (but the new jobs are arbetrage).

Before NAFTA in 1994 there were about 2 or 2.5 million Mexicans here illegally, then they suffered the short end of the NAFTA catastrophe, from 1995 to 2006 there was a sudden surge of 8.5 million more Mexicans over the border.

The third whammy began on top of the 8.5 million surge that were here by 2006, it is more illegal immigration from those causes, plus another exodus of jobs, this time from Mexico to China ad the job arbetrage is even worse there.

I don't know how many have come since 2006, estimates range from another 2 million to another 8 million. NAFTA was devestating to Mexico, it caused a huge surge across the border of people looking for how to feed their families. ..while the rich skimmed the cream.

And to interject a personal point, I feel that because laws like the AZ law do nothing to go to the root cause of the problem (NAFTAcreated hunger), then they will do virtually nothing to stem the tide of hungry mouths, laws won't get between them and their stomachs.

Too bad we have to have NAFTA, we could vote the candidates in who would exit NAFTA and the WTO (and return to Congressional, bilateral trade agreements), but in the US we have a lesser evil problem whre they only consider candidates who won'yt touch NAFTA or the WTS, (hense our jobs will stay gone too of course).

So anyways, there's a lot of info on the web about NAFTA's surge of illegal immigration...here's one from Common Dreams, remember this is 2006, the surge has increased since then of course:

Image

Published on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 by CommonDreams.org

Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA's Disastrous Impact on Mexican Economy

COMPLETE STORY

"While there has been some media coverage of NAFTA's ruinous impact on US industrial communities, there has been even less media attention paid to its catastrophic effects in Mexico:

NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'

NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.

But Mexicans must still contend with the results of the American-owned 'maquiladora' sweatshops: subsistence-level wages, pollution, congestion, horrible living conditions (cardboard shacks and open sewers), and a lack of resources (for streetlights and police) to deal with a wave of violence against vulnerable young women working in the factories. The survival (or less) level wages coupled with harsh working conditions have not been the great answer to Mexican poverty, while they have temporarily been the answer to Corporate America's demand for low wages.

Falling industrial wages, peasants forced off the land, small businesses liquidated, growing poverty: these are direct consequences of NAFTA. This harsh suffering explains why so many desperate Mexicans -- lured to the border area in the false hope that they could find dignity in the US-owned maquiladoras -- are willing to risk their lives to cross the border to provide for their families. There were 2.5 million Mexican illegals in 1995; 8 million have crossed the border since then. In 2005, some 400 desperate Mexicans died trying to enter the US.

NAFTA failed to curb illegal immigration precisely because it was never designed as a genuine development program crafted to promote rising living standards, health care, environmental cleanup, and worker rights in Mexico. The wholesale surge of Mexicans across the border dramatically illustrates that NAFTA was no attempt at a broad uplift of living conditions and democracy in Mexico, but a formula for government-sanctioned corporate plunder benefiting elites on both sides of the border.

...

The massive tide of illegal immigration from Mexico is merely one symptom of an economic arrangement where human needs -- not maximum profits-- are not the ultimate goal but a subject of neglect. Neither a massive, shameful barrier at the border nor a disposable guest-worker program will address the problems ignited by NAFTA.

Programs providing stable, decent employment, modern transportation, clean water, and environmental cleanup are needed to take the place of the immense NAFTA failure and allow Mexicans to live decent, hopeful lives in their native land. But such an effort is imaginable only if the aim is truly mutual uplift for all citizens in both nations, instead of the NAFTA-fueled race to the bottom."

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:21 am 
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http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr ... _Arizona/2
Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona

Good luck with this , Obama.

Instead of worrying about thousands of illegals coming into this country , you should worry about WHY they are coming here. Obama should consentrate on the Nafta policies that were enacted to keep our southern neighbors in their own homeland. I don't think the southern Mexican border is a very welcome spot for peoples south of that area. That makes me wonder why the world is pointing the finger at Arizona. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:15 am 
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pedro1 wrote:
http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/10374903/12819085/Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona/2
Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona

Good luck with this , Obama.

Instead of worrying about thousands of illegals coming into this country , you should worry about WHY they are coming here. Obama should consentrate on the Nafta policies that were enacted to keep our southern neighbors in their own homeland. I don't think the southern Mexican border is a very welcome spot for peoples south of that area. That makes me wonder why the world is pointing the finger at Arizona. :?



It's the classic double standard, a good example was the slave trade; although whites were instrumental in facilitating the trade the biggest operators of the trade itself were the black Africans. But regardless 2 wrongs don't make a right, just because the Mexican Government may or may not be doing something wrong on their southern border, does not mean we should alter our behavior in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:25 am 
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Plook wrote:
does not mean we should alter our behavior in this country.


the oscart with more stuff is on its ways to the horrorfilm stupendious


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:43 am 
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Plook wrote:
pedro1 wrote:
http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/10374903/12819085/Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona/2
Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona

Good luck with this , Obama.

Instead of worrying about thousands of illegals coming into this country , you should worry about WHY they are coming here. Obama should consentrate on the Nafta policies that were enacted to keep our southern neighbors in their own homeland. I don't think the southern Mexican border is a very welcome spot for peoples south of that area. That makes me wonder why the world is pointing the finger at Arizona. :?



It's the classic double standard, a good example was the slave trade; although whites were instrumental in facilitating the trade the biggest operators of the trade itself were the black Africans. But regardless 2 wrongs don't make a right, just because the Mexican Government may or may not be doing something wrong on their southern border, does not mean we should alter our behavior in this country.



I'm questioning that last statement. How are we altering our behavior in this country ??

The AZ law mirrors the FEDERAL law. The question is in the enforcement , isn't it?

The law states that it's illegal to cross our border without certain steps taken to LEGALY enter the US. The only behavior in this country that is changing is the one that ENACTS and ENFORCES the law according to the FEDERAL law that was written. AZ is only stepping into where the Federal law enforcement has stepped out of.

I wonder how many German's , Spainiards or Frenchmen would step out of the way to have you take their jobs, benefits , property and livelyhood from them ??

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:08 pm 
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"Arizona, here we come and conquer."

Who's tha`?

Speedy Gonzales, oscar-ripe and three sheets to the wind, i'd say. HEYyy


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Sabretoophairy wrote:
"Arizona, here we come and conquer."

Who's tha`?

Speedy Gonzales, oscar-ripe and three sheets to the wind, i'd say. HEYyy



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I was always under the impression that Zappa fans were literate. :P

Methinks one has femBats in the Bell free :lol:

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