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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:46 pm 
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I like language, even though sometimes it acts like a virus.
I'd say sabretooph is POST-literate, rather than PRE-literate.
Like if James Joyce wrote on ecstasy.
I enjoy what he writes, moreso than most people here.
At least he has his own opinion rather than regurgitated from someone else's hose.

Arizona?
your schwag is your vote
violent crime and illegals crossing the border
has actually decreased from 2008.
Yet some people don't want these simple facts
out in the mainstream.
Gee, do any wonder why?
I don't.
I'm

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:45 pm 
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The IPC argument was based on FBI crime data and correctly showed a decline in both the violent crime rate per capita and in the property crime rate per capita in Arizona. What the IPC report neglected to point out to its readers is that the crime rate in Arizona has been at or near the top of the FBI's national crime index every year since 2000. Furthermore, the FBI does not have a category in the crime data it collects for kidnappings - which are higher per capita in Arizona than anywhere in the United States and just about anywhere in the world. The IPC report dismisses the issue of kidnappings as mostly related to drug smugglers and human smugglers. That apparently is supposed to mean that if Mexican smugglers are committing crimes in Arizona, it's nothing to worry about as long a most of the victims are Mexicans.

Full story > http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=452739479408


Burglaries in Arizona
There were 17,719 reported burglaries in Arizona last year, 0.469 per capita. That stacks up poorly against national figures, which show that there were 0.443 burglary cases per capita across the country.

Motor Vehicle Thefts in Arizona
Cars and other motor vehicles were stolen at a more frequent rate than what's shown nationally, as the local per capita figures of 0.410 - totaled at 15,515 - is higher than the national figure of 0.285.

Arson in Arizona
Arizona is a relatively dangerous place to live based on cases of arson. There are 0.015 cases of arson reported nationally per capita every year. Locally the number grows to 0.016. Altogether there were 602 reported cases of arson in Arizona in 2008.

more stats > http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/d ... og-322633/

Punk , you and I both know that stats can be skewed every way possible , even if they are in the mainsteam ... unfortunatley , stats that get overlooked are the ones that go OUT of Arizona , such as the drug trade , car thefts ( who steals a car and stays where they are ?) , kidnappings and other violent crimes that hit states like Calif , Tehas and NEW Mexico.

Look at this chart between Phoenix and Dallas from 2006 :

Latest 2006 Crimes per 100,000 People:




Phoenix, AZ Dallas,TX National

Murder: 15.4 15 7
Forcible Rape: 36.25 53.28 32.2
Robbery: 287.5 553.9 205.8
Aggravated Assault: 398.5 584.2 336.5
Burglary: 1064.3 1734.7 813.2
Larceny Theft: 3282.6 4006.4 2601.7
Vehicle Theft: 1587.5 1116 501.5

http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compar ... llas&s2=TX

What the mainstream also fails to mention is that violent crimes are down ACROSS the country.

You are right about Arizona and crimes being down this year. BUT , could that be due to a lesser amount of illegals crossing over , coupled with the fact that they don't stay in AZ ?

We know where they are coming from , which border they are crossing , but can you tell me where they are going ?

PS.. about the fanged one , glad you enjoy him , but to me , he's just another trendymugger with strange language skills :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:30 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
Instead of worrying about thousands of illegals coming into this country , you should worry about WHY they are coming here.

eeeeYUP.

pedro1 wrote:
Obama should consentrate on the Nafta policies....

Interesting in all the TV time given to "them coming," Obama nor the "news" ever talk about NAFTA, Americans are never told what happened.

Best to leave the "Why" of job loss (in both countries), off the TV and out of the general consensus. If Obomba (or other top level, monied, D's and R's (and Lieberman I)), were to start talking about NAFTA and WTO being the root cause of job loss, they'd not only have to do something about it, but they'd loose hundreds of millions in sponsorship for TV ad's, they'd lose the lesser evils who give them power.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:09 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
Plook wrote:
pedro1 wrote:
http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/10374903/12819085/Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona/2
Why_Obama_Should_Sue_Arizona

Good luck with this , Obama.

Instead of worrying about thousands of illegals coming into this country , you should worry about WHY they are coming here. Obama should consentrate on the Nafta policies that were enacted to keep our southern neighbors in their own homeland. I don't think the southern Mexican border is a very welcome spot for peoples south of that area. That makes me wonder why the world is pointing the finger at Arizona. :?



It's the classic double standard, a good example was the slave trade; although whites were instrumental in facilitating the trade the biggest operators of the trade itself were the black Africans. But regardless 2 wrongs don't make a right, just because the Mexican Government may or may not be doing something wrong on their southern border, does not mean we should alter our behavior in this country.



I'm questioning that last statement. How are we altering our behavior in this country ??

The AZ law mirrors the FEDERAL law. The question is in the enforcement , isn't it?

The law states that it's illegal to cross our border without certain steps taken to LEGALY enter the US. The only behavior in this country that is changing is the one that ENACTS and ENFORCES the law according to the FEDERAL law that was written. AZ is only stepping into where the Federal law enforcement has stepped out of.

I wonder how many German's , Spainiards or Frenchmen would step out of the way to have you take their jobs, benefits , property and livelyhood from them ??



We are throwing out the baby with the bath water, in this case to further allow the erosion of our rights when it comes to search and seizer, I like everyone want the illegal problem resolved, but not at the cost of allowing more police intrusions. I am of an Italian background and could easily be harassed by police using the probable cause aspect of this law (and do not bother challenging that statement we all know that’s were the law ultimately goes and is intended to go).

The probable cause thing has already allowed the illegal searches of DUI check points, also police can enter the home now using probable cause, and I don't need them fucking with me on the street for possibly being of Hispanic extraction. The last thing this country needs is any more laws, there are far too many now, we are all basically criminals due to the amount of laws there are. I am sure the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Plook wrote:
The last thing this country needs is any more laws, there are far too many now, we are all basically criminals due to the amount of laws there are. I am sure the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.

Yeah....we need a new law that says every time they make a new law, they have to take an old one away.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:56 pm 
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This was written in 1994 :

FRINGE BENEFITS

Although NAFTA may mean harder times for some industries, the pact's overall benefits can't be denied. For U.S. and Canadian companies, NAFTA will unlock the door to what until now has been one of the world's most shielded economies: Mexico, a country of 86 million people with a burgeoning economy, deep labor reserves, and a middle class hungry for consumer products and services. For Mexican business, the agreement encourages foreign investment and opens the most affluent consumer market in the Western Hemisphere to south-of-the-border farm produce, clothing, and household appliances. NAFTA also is expected to further weaken the barriers still guarding Canada's borders four years after the signing of the U.S.-Canadian Free Trade Agreement. Duties on computers and telecommunications equipment, for example, will be eliminated Jan. 1, 1994.

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/contra ... 109-1.html

in 2009 :

Why renegotiate NAFTA?
The mainstream press is wrong when it says the United States can't "unilaterally" call for renegotiation. Not only is renegotiation permitted legally - in fact, any country can unilaterally withdraw with six months notice - but there have been many calls for renegotiation in Canada and Mexico.

Canadians have built a strong grassroots movement to protect natural resources from predatory NAFTA clauses. Broad-based citizen groups like the Council of Canadians oppose NAFTA because of the energy proportionality clause that requires Canada to export oil to the United States even in times of scarcity, the investor-state clauses that give investors the right to sue governments contained in Chapter 11, and the clause that permits bulk-water exports. Polls in the general population show that 61% favor renegotiation.

In Mexico, 100,000 people marched in the streets on two separate occasions under the banner of renegotiation to revise NAFTA's agricultural provisions. They demanded protection of basic food production by removing corn and beans from the agreement. In 2003, former President Vicente Fox requested opening up the agreement only to be rebuffed by the U.S. government.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/10-8

Until this boondoggle is dealt with , we are going to keep seeing illegals in this country.
Those in power like to deflect the cause and try to do something about the effect. As usual , all backwards.

Plook , my dad was Scicilian , mom was a mix of native american and german. When my hair was long in the 70's & 80's I was profiled left and right. Stopped for this and that . That shit has always happened , to EVERYBODY that didn't fit the ' mold ' . We got more people , we got more profilin' goin on. Go figure.

I asked before if it was wrong to profile whites for meth use and blacks for crack . You may think it is , but the facts are more whites use meth than blacks and more blacks use crack than whites. Should the police go after Asian or Eastern Europeon people in those matters ? Probably a waste of time , money and resources , right?

So why is it wrong to go after a specific group of people for a crime that is ' SPECIFIC ' to that group ? Or should we just check everybody ?? I don't think you can have it both ways.

Profiling has been does since BEFORE man could even communicate. It's not the profiling that gets you in trouble ... it's what you do after that act. As I understand the AZ law , profiling is left to an arresting officer , and THEN , steps are taken by the FEDERAL goverment.

Or we can just get rid of all laws .. cuz , ya know , someone's feeling might get hurt. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:03 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
What the mainstream also fails to mention is that violent crimes are down ACROSS the country.

You are right about Arizona and crimes being down this year. BUT , could that be due to a lesser amount of illegals crossing over , coupled with the fact that they don't stay in AZ ?

We know where they are coming from , which border they are crossing , but can you tell me where they are going ?


Great post pedro!
Federal statistics show that illegal captures are down since 2008. Violent crimes down in AZ since 2007. The feds say that is not just fewer apprehensions since they are keeping track of who they capture and send back. But fewer coming in overall. You ask if the drop in crime could be because illegal crossings are down which is a great question. But it begs another.

If crossings are down and violent crimes are down then why a draconian law by a single state, one that looks more and more unconstitutional every day? The cops down there will tell you to ask the immigrants why they are NOT crossing into the States as much since 2007. They'll tell you it's the economy. Why make the hardship of the crossing and uncertain prospects once they get here if there are fewer and fewer jobs to be had here?

Which leads to my thought that the repeal of any law won't solve the problem, such as it is (fewer violent crimes, fewer illegal migrants) Que?

The reason why the migrants come here is because of the wealth disparity between the US and Mexico.
No argument there. But NAFTA was an attempt to lessen that disparity. Not saying it worked but an argument could certainly be made that we very well may have had MANY MORE migrants come here without something like NAFTA, rather than less. Impossible to tell after the fact, I know. We are here, not some world where NAFTA didn't happen.
But the Mexicans know that nobody can find jobs here anymore. Why go somewhere they can't make any money and be hated for trying?
The problem are the violent crimes and the drugs that fund the civil war in Mexico. Take away an armies funding,
get Americans to stop smoking schwag and the army will stop fighting. They'll have to find another job too.
Your schwag is your vote. Legalise the good stuff and the market for schwag will disappear. Of course they sell other drugs, but they have to buy that stuff, like cocaine from Colombia. Nothing is so cheap for them to make like weed and nothing is more profitable to the cartels that export violence. Take away an armies funding, and the army will stop fighting. They'll have to start selling shit on ebay like everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:24 am 
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Read the existing fed immigration law, it allows any fed to profile and or question a possible illegal, so can the Az law crap, next Az. IS the kidnap capitol of the USA, what say you.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:56 am 
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pedro1 wrote:
This was written in 1994 :

FRINGE BENEFITS

Although NAFTA may mean harder times for some industries, the pact's overall benefits can't be denied. For U.S. and Canadian companies, NAFTA will unlock the door to what until now has been one of the world's most shielded economies: Mexico, a country of 86 million people with a burgeoning economy, deep labor reserves, and a middle class hungry for consumer products and services. For Mexican business, the agreement encourages foreign investment and opens the most affluent consumer market in the Western Hemisphere to south-of-the-border farm produce, clothing, and household appliances. NAFTA also is expected to further weaken the barriers still guarding Canada's borders four years after the signing of the U.S.-Canadian Free Trade Agreement. Duties on computers and telecommunications equipment, for example, will be eliminated Jan. 1, 1994.


I remember the Great Exodus of General Motors jobs straight to Mexico in mid to late '80s when NAFTA was still being drafted by Bush/Quayle and Reagan/Bush.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:09 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
pedro1 wrote:
This was written in 1994 :

FRINGE BENEFITS

Although NAFTA may mean harder times for some industries, the pact's overall benefits can't be denied. For U.S. and Canadian companies, NAFTA will unlock the door to what until now has been one of the world's most shielded economies: Mexico, a country of 86 million people with a burgeoning economy, deep labor reserves, and a middle class hungry for consumer products and services. For Mexican business, the agreement encourages foreign investment and opens the most affluent consumer market in the Western Hemisphere to south-of-the-border farm produce, clothing, and household appliances. NAFTA also is expected to further weaken the barriers still guarding Canada's borders four years after the signing of the U.S.-Canadian Free Trade Agreement. Duties on computers and telecommunications equipment, for example, will be eliminated Jan. 1, 1994.


I remember the Great Exodus of General Motors jobs straight to Mexico in mid to late '80s when NAFTA was still being drafted by Bush/Quayle and Reagan/Bush.



The good news for the Arizonions is the Mexicans will not have to cross the border to get our crap jobs anymore, they can stay in Mexico and get our good jobs and everyone here can pick crops, clean rooms, and bang nails....what a country!


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:44 pm 
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I ended up in Phoenix back in the 80's because this union town , Cincinnati , was drying up. Why ? Because of the unions that made it impossible for anyone to make a profit , so all the jobs in my field , printing , ended up going to the southwest. Remember , this is the town where Camaros & Firebirds were made . Then GM told the union boys " we need at least 45 % productivity out of you guys or we'll have to close " . Guess where GM went ? To people that wanted to work... Mexico.

I've been a union steward and in managment , so I've seen both sides of that coin. Don't blame a company like GM for taking their business to a place where they could get more bang for their buck. It's called a WORK ETHIC and it used to be very prevelant in this country in the last century. Nowadays it's impossible to find.

I build bass and guitar cabinets now for some high end names and the kids we get looking for a job want 20.00/hr , 3 weeks vacation AND a sign on bonus !! This without ANY experience.

So you can blame all those other people for stealing your jobs , but some people ought to look in a mirror sometime.

Remember the job you save might be your own.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:26 pm 
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I CAN SEE NOVEMBER FROM MEXICO.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Huck_Phlem wrote:
I CAN SEE NOVEMBER FROM MEXICO.


Mexico used to be awesome, we would make reguler surf trips there and have a great time. I rember one trip we were in some small town about a 100 miles south of Encinada surfing and in the evening we went into town to buy beer we were parked across the street and a few doors down. As we came out it started to rain and we ducked under a Taco carts umbrella, then it let loose and it was raining so hard if we had stepped out from under the umbrella we would have been soaked as if we had fallin in a pool, no shit. Well it so happenned it was a Carnitas (twice cooked pork) cart and Tacos were hand made to order 2 for 5 cents. We remained under the umbrella eating Tacos until the rain subsided after about 20 minutes, man that was the best Carnitas I ever had and am still chasing those tacos 30 years later.
:o


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:23 pm 
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I was making fun of Palin. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:04 am 
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Huck_Phlem wrote:
I was making fun of Palin. :mrgreen:


I know I just had a flashback and thought I should share... 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:37 am 
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Here's a few scenes Lou Dobbs doesn't want ya to see while he's whippin up TV-generated general consensus hatred for our desperate brothers to the South. If you never mention the cause of the sudden surge in immigration, Americans will think they just sorta came here suddenly on their own. Get the victims on both sides of the border fighting amongst themselves, and they won't see the elite making record breaking buckets of money off of NAFTA, (and the WTO as Clinton signed that in in 1995 as well). That way the rich get to keep making money off NAFTA, and the D's and R's can keep the campaign contributions coming in so they can keep the lesser evils mesmerized.

Image

Image

Image

Image
"Beans and corn out of NAFTA," (they're trying to mitigate some of the worst of the damage and get their farms back and get some food back on the table).

Image
(Clinton signed NAFTA into law in December, 1993).

Mexico City NAFTA protest:
Image

Image

(Mexico City NAFTA protest).
Image

Image

Image

Meanwhile...back in the U.S....

Image

Image

Um, I think you got it wrong hon, it's...
Image

Yes, the aye's have it, you loose..
Image
(Bill Clinton signing NAFTA into law in December, 1993.

Image

Image

...and I kinda liked this one,
Image

Well...until the D and R lesser evils fuckin' learn, we're gonna have to keep protesting it.

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Last edited by baddy on Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:39 am 
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Exactly what are WE protesting?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:42 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Exactly what are WE protesting?

NAFTA. That's a post of photos from people protesting NAFTA in Mexico City mostly, but a few photos at the end from U.S. protests against NAFTA as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:49 pm 
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I hear you....... Ross Perot and many subsequent protests have happened and to me it is doing the same thing time and again and expecting a different result, and what is that called?
Bottom line this is a republic we live in ,so far it is the best form of government, so we have to make changes through voting! I know it could take generations, so now we know how our parents felt ,remember them griping about politics? WOW if they just had the Internet 70 years ago. We have to get grid lock in congress, it is the only way to stop them from spending our money. Then work on international problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:00 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
We have to get grid lock in congress, it is the only way to stop them from spending our money. Then work on international problems.


Good luck with that.

Bravo you know as well as I , and most others on this board , that we are in a GLOBAL economy and are here to stay. Unforunately what happens to the rest of the world , either militarily or ecconomically , affects EVERYONE around the globe. Our markets rise and fall based on their markets and vice-versa.

We , here in America , became so complacent years ago by buying imported goods. Remember , Curtis-Mathis , the last American television maker ? Made a good product , was American made , but the Asian stuff was cheaper. How many years ago was that ?

We lost our edge back in the early 80's and just can't compete anymore because we want too much money. And we need that money to buy things we really don't need , really can't afford , and , in reality , cost too much to begin with since we can't sell it for even 50% of the original cost. Don't get me started on the housing problem.

We did a lot of this to ourselves , but in this day of blame everyone else , we can't possibly admit to any wrong doings. It has to be that fukin' gov't , right ?

Guess what ? WE ARE THE FUKIN' GOV'T ! But like you and Baddy and a lot others here have noted , we need to VOTE !

A lot of people voted for hope and change last time. They ain't very happy either. Maybe that whole world gov't / ecconomy idea has some merit ? :?

NAH..... we just need to get back to basics and start to control our resourses , instead of the Leaders Of The Gov't , like you say . :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Wow you lost me , we can and will vote enough of the opposite party in starting in November, history shows that a gridlocked congress does the best . I wasn't waxing philosophical, congress as well as local government can not be ruled by one party it has to be equal.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:53 pm 
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You can vote out the ruling party and vote in your party , but the only party that really ever mattered was the party of money . :cry:

In those eyes , ALL the polictitions are equal , and you , or me , don't matter to them.

But , good luck. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:11 pm 
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you did not read what I said, it ain't a luck thing, i think you are overly dramatic.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:24 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
I hear you....... Ross Perot and many subsequent protests have happened and to me it is doing the same thing time and again and expecting a different result, and what is that called?
Bottom line this is a republic we live in ,so far it is the best form of government, so we have to make changes through voting! I know it could take generations, so now we know how our parents felt ,remember them griping about politics? WOW if they just had the Internet 70 years ago. We have to get grid lock in congress, it is the only way to stop them from spending our money. Then work on international problems.



What would we stop spending on the military, the social security of retiree’s, old peoples Medicare, fixing roads, Veterans Administration, any infrastructure? How American of you and a little selfish on the side...It’s cool to say stop spending until they come after stuff people need or rely on. What causes grid lock Fascist Republicans that want to say no because they are afraid of President Obama being successful, they fucked us by not working with the Socialist Democrats on the Health Care Bill, what a bunch of fucking cry babies, now we are stuck hoping those idiot Democrats can do something right…I doubt it. We don’t have time for the racist in the Tea bagger clan to figure out how to be normal human beings…We’re screwed… :!:


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:18 am 
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Sounds like you are profiling just about everybody, you fall into the drama queen category.

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