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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:26 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
I disagree, and your description of Sheriff joe is way off base. Tell me how you would handle the huge number of people over crowding the maricopa county jail system. Joe would like nothing more than to have FEWER inmates, sheeesh, do your home work!!!

Well I certainly wouldn't beat them until they're dead.

I know Sheriff Joe well. He's a creep who abuses his power, and goes outside the law on a whim. This law legitimizes Joe and his ilk. He's a Sheriff who does wholescale raids, sweeps up hundreds of Latinos at a time, who have the bad luck to be there (legal or not), tosses them in jail, denies many of them due process, and defends his people when they beat some of them to death. He is the AZ equivalent of the NY police shoving their batons up prisoners' asses. He's been out of control and out of the feds' reach for years.

There are many people, like you I guess, who excuse his brutality and disregard for the law because they believe he "gets results." It doesn't justify his actions just because it's a big problem.

My homework's fine. Look it up if you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:10 pm 
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Zinggggg...or should I say El ZinggGO :arrow: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:21 am 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
I disagree, and your description of Sheriff joe is way off base. Tell me how you would handle the huge number of people over crowding the maricopa county jail system. Joe would like nothing more than to have FEWER inmates, sheeesh, do your home work!!!

Well I certainly wouldn't beat them until they're dead.

I know Sheriff Joe well. He's a creep who abuses his power, and goes outside the law on a whim. This law legitimizes Joe and his ilk. He's a Sheriff who does wholescale raids, sweeps up hundreds of Latinos at a time, who have the bad luck to be there (legal or not), tosses them in jail, denies many of them due process, and defends his people when they beat some of them to death. He is the AZ equivalent of the NY police shoving their batons up prisoners' asses. He's been out of control and out of the feds' reach for years.

There are many people, like you I guess, who excuse his brutality and disregard for the law because they believe he "gets results." It doesn't justify his actions just because it's a big problem.

My homework's fine. Look it up if you want.



All I will say is you are wrong and will have to agree to disagree,....ever been in another country? did you have to keep your passport with you? Also like you say look up the facts, the one I looked up is the fact that Joe has never heard of you , fucking liar!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:14 am 
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Just a few thoughts on this law....

There is nothing in the AZ law that is not in the federal law dictated by the federal govermnet.
All this does is increase the number of people that can administer the law.

As for it being racist ... should we stop the crackdown on crack because it might affect blacks more than whites?

How about the crackdown on meth because it attacks whites more than blacks?

Car thieves are more likely to be men ... isn't that sexist ?

Why do we have these laws anyway if they are racist or sexist ??

The fact that more of our brown skinned neighbors are more prone to this illegal action than those of a fairer or darker skin , does not constitute racism.

NAFTA was supposed to make our neighbors south of us create a better chance at a better life in THOSE countries .... seems like the leaders of THOSE countries have dropped the ball.

Police will , no doubt , get get a little froggy with these new powers , I'm sure , but there are bad cops everywhere , just like there are bad teachers , bosses , IRS agents and even common citizens like us on this forum.

Why don't we just get rid of everybody that's not on this forum ? :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:26 am 
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pedro1 wrote:

Why don't we just get rid of everybody that's not on this forum ? :wink: :lol:


That would just reduce the numbers, not the different points of view, the myriad colour and nationalities represented on the forum or the wildly varying levels of politeness that makes this the wild and witty place to hang out. :wink:
On the other hand, under your plan, doesn't this mean I get US nationality?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:21 am 
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Caputh wrote:
On the other hand, under your plan, doesn't this mean I get US nationality?


It sure does !

BUT FIRST..... get in line for about 5-7 years , fill these forms out in triplicate ( make copies cuz you know they will get lost ) , send us your 1st born males so we can " indocterinate " them , get all your shots and 3/4 of your assets.

After that , we'll set up a review panel to see if you qualify for yet another review panel to get reviewed once more.

Say the Pledge of Alligence 3 times daily , sing AmeriKa the Beautiful every morning and tune into Fox news every night and , finally , condem your birthplace in a publc forum.

Got it , Cap ?

Easy as hopping a fence , isn't it ? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:41 am 
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pedro1 wrote:
tune into Fox news every night :wink:


I do that bit every evening when I hang up the washing to amuse myself- in fact I'm just off to do it again. As the for the forms bit; you've never seen forms 'till you've seen German forms! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:00 am 
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How can you guys stand fox news? For me the only network to watch for news is nbc they are the most impartial. Also Obama is just so fantastic, I am so glad his admin. is going to give total amnesty to all people who have strayed into the usa lets say without following immigration rules. It is only fair after all one person on this forum says you can go to college for free in the usa he did it and so can every one. I think that ms13 shit is phony every one knows drug gang problems are a myth, lets tax the fuck out of everybody that makes over 50 g a year there is just so much a person should make!! Now that I think about it why should any one make money, just go to work and let the government take care of the rest I have read that works every place it is tried.Were so backwards in this country. I hope ZPZ isn't making to much profit on concerts and sales while the rest of us slave away .

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:05 am 
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Don't you just love SERIOUS SERIOUSNESS in a satirical debate ?

:wink: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:40 am 
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I don't watch TV at all. it's just bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:33 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
The fact that more of our brown skinned neighbors are more prone to this illegal action than those of a fairer or darker skin , does not constitute racism.


It may not be racist, but it's damn unfair and definitely unconstitutional. It's not about stopping action to halt illegal immigration; as you posit in your post. It's about having a good reason besides ethnicity to stop, accost, or arrest someone. Ethnicity is not the crime, as the millions of Mexican U.S. citizens proves.

There's a world of difference between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause." What would "reasonable suspicion" be if not ethnicity? Except for something obvious like getting caught climbing the border wall or something.

As I've said, I've spent a lot of time in southern AZ, and the climate there is hostile to say the least. Scooping people up because they're probably Mexican is the kind of wholesale police power that the constitution stands against. If you give police an inch they will take a mile, especially in a charged atmosphere such as that that exists in southern AZ.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:50 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Ronny's Noomies wrote:
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
I disagree, and your description of Sheriff joe is way off base. Tell me how you would handle the huge number of people over crowding the maricopa county jail system. Joe would like nothing more than to have FEWER inmates, sheeesh, do your home work!!!

Well I certainly wouldn't beat them until they're dead.

I know Sheriff Joe well. He's a creep who abuses his power, and goes outside the law on a whim. This law legitimizes Joe and his ilk. He's a Sheriff who does wholesale raids, sweeps up hundreds of Latinos at a time, who have the bad luck to be there (legal or not), tosses them in jail, denies many of them due process, and defends his people when they beat some of them to death. He is the AZ equivalent of the NY police shoving their batons up prisoners' asses. He's been out of control and out of the feds' reach for years.

There are many people, like you I guess, who excuse his brutality and disregard for the law because they believe he "gets results." It doesn't justify his actions just because it's a big problem.

My homework's fine. Look it up if you want.



All I will say is you are wrong and will have to agree to disagree,....ever been in another country? did you have to keep your passport with you? Also like you say look up the facts, the one I looked up is the fact that Joe has never heard of you , fucking liar!!!!

OK. I did a quick google search and came up with hundreds of articles about the abuses of Ol' Sheriff Joe. Consider that this guy gets re-elected over and over by HUGE majorities (over 80%). The link below has a nice list of his pleasant manner......

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/specialReports/view/1166737

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:56 pm 
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This law is an enigma wrapped in a quagmire rolled in the constitution as some kind of one taco fits all type of scam…this is another slippery slope law to erode our rights and it is gift wrapped in yet another polarizing package as was health care…the scam is in the scam…FZ predicted all of this in Joe’s Garage…”they are writing tiny little sentence that fit in between the lines of the constitution”….Only news that tells it like it is “The Daily Show”, you aren’t getting the whole story unless you are watching it... :!:


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:58 pm 
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pedro1 wrote:
There is nothing in the AZ law that is not in the federal law dictated by the federal goverment.
All this does is increase the number of people that can administer the law.

another shocker, pedro; I agree with you on this.
I think the lawmakers need to make up their minds; are illegal immigrants illegal or not?

politicians from both the republican and the democratic persuasion have been all over the media this last week, saying how unconstitutional this arizona law is, and how it threatens civil liberties.
I don't believe them. they don't care about illegal immigrants. they're just out there fishing for votes.
the legal latino community is growing, and everyone want their votes.

as usual; it's all about politics and not about the real issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:00 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
How can you guys stand fox news?


I mitigate the poisonous rays emitted by Fox News by listening to it in another room, rather than watching it. If I actually saw Hannity or Glenn Beck, I'm sure I would soon be pinning up posters of Victoria Jackson and Sarah Palin as well as daubing weird mind maps on blackboards that prove various conspiracies :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:33 am 
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There are (now) problems that cannot be dealt with (easily). And believe me, I have spent the overwhelming fraction of my free times on reasoning what would be best, who is right and so forth, weighing the situation from a bird's view point of getting the whole picture in a most neutral approach. Naturally does one talk, discuss, converse etc things in the immediate vicinity differently, not to speak of private circumstances. - That was when I would have done everything for humankind and has changed since then considerably. I am about to swing my banner high and freely here on the winterweb and you may ...come up with whatever you like.

So, what is happening in Arizona, are the sugar-cane (what a devastating nonsense that is) farmers and their helpers cracking the whips again with no soul in them? Or is it more of d'Esperintos forcing their language upon the globe? (desperados, knowing nothing about the world; the females in Spain spending all money on exquisite clothes and the males have no other idea than to mimic machos. Esperanto was the try to make all crows sound like angels) What would Sheryl say? all I wanna do is to explain why it is so complicated nowadays, with the vast majority not even aware anymore of the most natural, basic and useful knowledge. Imagine only four generations ago, when this our planet had been only interspersed with a few folks and on a travel to foreign regions one was really out of one's mind meeting other tribes, hear their lore, stories and stuff and common sense helped a lot. In the current matters of affairs we need something completely different (had the idea for a world-wide selling record book; more stronger my inclination to tell the population important infos via a broadsidecasting!-) Have I mentioned neighbours?...

Provided and agreed upon that man could do with some support, what you think, would eg some true pictures, life-coverage of clouds! showing that there is more between Earth and sky do a jump forward in giving folks more confidence and self-efficacy in all ways of living?

(never mind history anymore, of how it could get so messed up; Christianity, we are out of Paradies, apple-babble; go forth and staple the sheep up to heaven; subdue the planet!; when you pseudo sinned, there is selling of indulgences; gold rush, kings sending cold-blooded I-know-the-Culprits... That were the cornerstones, sure has been more .. the world's way of living, more, bigger, faster, more n more)

At the present i have to rethink it all, lavished all seven most magic tricks upon my neighbours, to no avail at all. Hey, I am certain that you already are ..don't know, have tuned in to New-Age, t'da.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:56 am 
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All those words saying nothing.

Let's put it like this..
Say..you have a house and invite by fatal mistake strangers in it,
because you have a good heart,and want to share what you have achieved.
Then the guests once inside want to rearrange everything you established.
They even want to take your house you worked for..for a lifetime.
As guest they tell you how to behave towards them.
Here..in Holland this is just the case.
Those Muslims here are not prepared to just drop the veil or anything else.
But us..Hollanders have to give it all away.
So..we are just left with a broken mirror.
Hope you get it now.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:25 am 
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Going over the hamlets now, do we? one of our easiest tasks. In Belgium they put up an idea yesterday for a law that will offer all islam women the liberty to wear what they want to. It only has to get the vote from that parliament. Haven't heard yet what is going to be done with some other peculiarities say.

And nobody will ever make me hark to these gutter tv-presenters with a demonesque guttural menace of stating that we are worthless or worse all the times. Horrors.

I now find me a radio station with a more friendly approach, but first shut the windows and switch on the hy-fy on a little more than the enviromental cacophony level. After that no idea, maybe some thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:05 am 
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The TV generated general consensus has wandered way the fuck out to left field on this one....I suppose it's easy, and human nature to jump for the quick "seemingly simple" answer, especially when it suggests it might help a job opening up for oneself...

...but if truth is an issue important to us, read on :lol:

SB1070 introduces a new concept: it criminalizes the undocumented, what had previously been a civil offense.

Before SB1070, deportation was the response. Deportation is a civil procedure, not a criminal punishment.

If deportation were a punishment for a crime, proper criminal offence procedures would need to be followed, (to remain in alignment with The Constitution). For example, before the police could arrest someone, they would have to have reasonable suspition that they had committed a crime...they would have to be read, and be afforded their rights, (to remain silent, to be afforded legal counsul, etc). Suspects would have to be charged and convicted before punishment could be carried out.

Criminalizing the undocument as tresspassers under State law subjects them to fines and jail time. They can be turned over later to the Department of Homeland Security for deportation as criminal aliens, as people who have been convicted prior to deportation...but the criminalization step is unnecessary in this case, as one can plainly see, (besides, the courts and jails are already seriously overloaded, where will the resorces come for this)...Homeland Security can simply deport them without any criminal convictions, (where they will come back of course, because NAFTA has ruined their chances for survival at home).

Conversly, the State of Arizona cannot deport anyone by themselves, they MUST be turned over to Dept of Homeland Security for that.

So we got a bunch of burocratic bullshit that accomplishes nothing, and tightens the grip of the state, through the police force, on everyone else...

For example...

There are many legally living in Arizona who physically look exactly like their undocumented counterparts. Are the police supposed to develop ESP or mind reading abilities to tell them apart? They then go before the judge and say, "I saw in my mind this person had no papers so I stopped him")...OR are they just supposed to stop everyone and demand papers?

And of course remember FEDERAL law directly prohibits discrimination based on national origin, race, color or religion..(that is for our own protection).

What is the test police officers use to establish "reasonable suspicion" when the undocumented look just like the documented?

And if it's a criminal offence, that means also neighbors are required by law to start turning people in...including their parents and brothers and neighbors...fat fucking chance...meaning we create criminal accessories out of US citizens...in fact their crime worse, it is a FELONY, (secondary violations of any part of any law is a felony).

So SP1070 requires Arizona police to check papers of everyone they suspect as being undocumented...and as we've seen above, the undocumented look just like the documented, and since we can't harrass people based on race...well then how are the police going to avoid becoming felons themselves?

And to make matters worse, the police must investigate anyone another citizen tells them may be undocumented...or again, the police become felons for not investigating...don't like yer neighbor? Sick the cops on 'em, they'll have to harrass them by law...looks like we're gonna need a lot more police in Arizona.

Hopefully, this law will be found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court before it goes into effect this summer...thus overturning it, and preventing any further such stupid fucking laws from being passed. Tightening the grip of the police state is not a good idea.

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ALSO. as a reminder...while Americans are being distracted by another election year round of "immigration posturing," the wars rage on, innocents are being killed by the thousands in our name, (we voted for it), and NAFTA and the WTO continue their "devistation for profit" in all of the lands they touch, (in this case, causing a catastrophe for the Mexican economy, driving 8.5 million across the US border since NAFTA was installed...there were only about 2.5 million here before NAFTA)...the poor in all countries are losing our shirts while we're busy pulling our puds talking about if we should or should not advance police state, unconstitutional laws...just like the TV generated general consensus instructed us to do..

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Last edited by baddy on Sat May 01, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:10 am 
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Good response to the problem Baddy, But.... as you say AZ. cannot deport the illegals, the feds can't or haven't done a good enough job of it . So due to the huge state cost, AZ and Texas is passing laws like this to wake up the feds thus once they arrest the person they turn them over to ICE and they have to deport them. I doubt many will stay in jail for long as you say the jails are overcrowded now that is part of the problem. All this overreacting is hyperbole, the new law mirrors the fed law that is not being enforced. And as far as profiling, that sucks but if you are legal whats wrong with keeping ID with you especially if you know this could happen? I got profiled to get my drivers license this time, in SD you have to have 5 documents to prove you are a citizen, I have to have documents to cash a check, buy beer,and on and on. IMHO the border needs to be secure first to make it work but some thing has to be done. As a side note many Mexicans pay to have the pregnant mom come to the us illegally when the child is born, ta da citizen, then Obama says we should let the parents stay, meanwhile huge tax dollars from all of us are spent to subsidise them, and at the same time fucking over the folks that came here LEAGLE. ...Also many from all over the world come here legal out last their visa then stay, the figure is somewhere around 5 million or more.Again to much hype about profiling,our economy is stretched way to far and this problem doesn't help. I lost out on a job years ago, you know didn't pass the profile, uh er I mean the interview, then I find out a year later a couple guys in our small town got deported for being illegal immigrants...that's correct it was the job that I applied for..... oh well welcome to LIFE!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:09 am 
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Great post Baddy!
Erudite and enlightening - particularly for us foreigners.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:10 am 
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year===== ulimat post

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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:09 am 
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a-yeep, abso-blimmling-lutely, Cleon's post has chased all fog away. On reading it several times a sort of calmness all of a sudden let an old custom recall that here on the european continent an ID-cart, sometimes a mere driver-license suffice to persuade any curious investigator of your integrity. But when then Mr. Wossmane interfered with his comment about illegal immigrants may now not be send back, I honestly had to scratch my headphones. Can someone understand all that? me not! they would get a ticket home for the asking. Alternatively stay out of the range of watcher's way, better for the nerves anyhow or learn language, a skill or track down info of what is else needed. .. a mule-boy or maize baker or summing.

Seriously, before ourself ventured over to England I moved the world. If they had tried to invite that brilliant person, GB would now be guided by a proper prog-rocker, no rofl. The weawwuh was there alrigh'. ..not too much sun frrrinstance, hallol.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenophobic Arizona?
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:32 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Good response to the problem Baddy, But.... as you say AZ. cannot deport the illegals, the feds can't or haven't done a good enough job of it . So due to the huge state cost, AZ and Texas is passing laws like this to wake up the feds thus once they arrest the person they turn them over to ICE and they have to deport them. I doubt many will stay in jail for long as you say the jails are overcrowded now that is part of the problem. All this overreacting is hyperbole, the new law mirrors the fed law that is not being enforced. And as far as profiling, that sucks but if you are legal whats wrong with keeping ID with you especially if you know this could happen? I got profiled to get my drivers license this time, in SD you have to have 5 documents to prove you are a citizen, I have to have documents to cash a check, buy beer,and on and on. IMHO the border needs to be secure first to make it work but some thing has to be done. As a side note many Mexicans pay to have the pregnant mom come to the us illegally when the child is born, ta da citizen, then Obama says we should let the parents stay, meanwhile huge tax dollars from all of us are spent to subsidise them, and at the same time fucking over the folks that came here LEAGLE. ...Also many from all over the world come here legal out last their visa then stay, the figure is somewhere around 5 million or more.Again to much hype about profiling,our economy is stretched way to far and this problem doesn't help. I lost out on a job years ago, you know didn't pass the profile, uh er I mean the interview, then I find out a year later a couple guys in our small town got deported for being illegal immigrants...that's correct it was the job that I applied for..... oh well welcome to LIFE!!!!!!!!!



ding ding ding ding! Tell him what he wins Bob. I get profiled every time I apply for a job where is my fucking protest rally. Enforce the laws we already have. ..but they don't and this is why they passed their own law. It really is that simple.

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 Post subject: Re: xenophobic arizona?
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:36 pm 
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:arrow: immigration law's sponsor expected some uproar

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weekend edition sunday
arizona state representative john kavanagh sponsored the anti-illegal immigration law that's reverberating around the country.
host liane hansen talks with kavanagh about the reaction.

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