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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Quilt wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Quilt wrote:
And while I'm on that subject, do any of you tokers out there drive after smoking weed, and if so, does it make you a safer driver?


Did you not see the commercial? People cause accidents when they smoke marijuana! It's almost as bad as alcohol!

(Okay, I'll quit kidding, since I'm sure some people have died that way....but it's gotta be a extremely small percentage of what alcohol has done.)


A big problem with dope is that you can't easily measure it at the roadside, so we may never know the extent of its effect on causing road accidents.
I think it's a dangerous assertion to make that weed doesn't have the same potential to cause utter misery due to road accidents, accidents in the workplace, relationship problems etc etc
Most of the folks I know who choose weed as their drug of choice are almost too laid back. Many of the are just lazy.

I don't buy into the 'THC is better then ETOH' argument.


We were getting incredibly high on pot in the 70's and 80's while skating (skateboards) in swimming pools, half pipes, full pipes, spill ways...etc..., we also where surfing incredible waves in serious waters. No one ever said don't smoke pot and do these activities, but if someone had more than 2 beers we hide their equipment until they could be trusted to perform at the level necessary to do what we were doing. Of course if one is already an imbecile they probably will be a bigger one when they get high, it depends on what you are starting with what you get when you add ingredients. It’s like driving and talking on the phone, no problem, but most people are incapable of thinking and wiping there ass at the same time, so now I can’t talk on the phone while driving anymore. The unwashed mass’s strike again and infringe on my life, what’s next???


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:30 pm 
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I don't begrudge anyone having a few drinks once in a while. I do it myself. But, I don't like how I am when I'm drunk, and I don't like to be around drunks, even when I'm drinking.

I have to take issue with the statement by HJ that no abuse is worse than another. Alcohol abuse is much more dangerous than potsmoking...not only dangerous to the user, but to other people. Many people have died in accidents caused by drunken people doing drunken shit because they were drunk. Alcohol makes people stupid, violent, clumsy, and incoherent, causing them to wreck cars, drop lit cigarettes, fall out of windows and into swimming pools, and get angry and shoot themselves or other people.

We all know this is true. Pot makes a person, maybe, a little stupid, a little lazy, and kind of weird. Any serious incident occurring to the potsmoker in most cases cannot be blamed solely on the effects of the weed itself. It may be a contributing factor, but the potsmoker is not going to go ape-shit and make something happen, like the drunkard does.

Of course, different people are effected differently by different substances. While I might disagree, most professional counselors will tell you that if you drink to get a buzz or to get drunk, you are an alcoholic. Ask the AA guy. Ask the rehab doctor. Ask the director of the DEA. The major reason why alcohol is tolerated is the supposed fact that most people just have a couple of drinks, not intending to get drunk. Other drugs are used with the intent of altering conciousness. I tend to disagree with this assertion about alcohol, because most people I know walk into a bar with the intent of at least getting buzzed...and two drinks quickly will do it for a lot of people. Then they drive home.

To further this, I will make another outlandish statement. DUI laws are bullshit. To allow one person to sell a substance that makes a person crazy, and then to allow the buyer to ingest the substance, and then to arrest and prosecute the user for doing something crazy is just a scam...just another way to keep cops and lawyers in nice homes and sweet rides. If we are going to allow substances that make people do ignorant shit to be sold, bought, and ingested, we should just suck up the consequences instead of hasseling the people that do the crazy shit.

If you allow someone to buy and ingest a product that makes them crazy...indeed, a product that is promoted and advertised...and then they do something crazy and against the law, aren't they innocent by reason of insanity?


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:58 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
I don't begrudge anyone having a few drinks once in a while. I do it myself. But, I don't like how I am when I'm drunk, and I don't like to be around drunks, even when I'm drinking.

I have to take issue with the statement by HJ that no abuse is worse than another. Alcohol abuse is much more dangerous than potsmoking...not only dangerous to the user, but to other people. Many people have died in accidents caused by drunken people doing drunken shit because they were drunk. Alcohol makes people stupid, violent, clumsy, and incoherent, causing them to wreck cars, drop lit cigarettes, fall out of windows and into swimming pools, and get angry and shoot themselves or other people.

We all know this is true. Pot makes a person, maybe, a little stupid, a little lazy, and kind of weird. Any serious incident occurring to the potsmoker in most cases cannot be blamed solely on the effects of the weed itself. It may be a contributing factor, but the potsmoker is not going to go ape-shit and make something happen, like the drunkard does.

Of course, different people are effected differently by different substances. While I might disagree, most professional counselors will tell you that if you drink to get a buzz or to get drunk, you are an alcoholic. Ask the AA guy. Ask the rehab doctor. Ask the director of the DEA. The major reason why alcohol is tolerated is the supposed fact that most people just have a couple of drinks, not intending to get drunk. Other drugs are used with the intent of altering conciousness. I tend to disagree with this assertion about alcohol, because most people I know walk into a bar with the intent of at least getting buzzed...and two drinks quickly will do it for a lot of people. Then they drive home.



To further this, I will make another outlandish statement. DUI laws are bullshit. To allow one person to sell a substance that makes a person crazy, and then to allow the buyer to ingest the substance, and then to arrest and prosecute the user for doing something crazy is just a scam...just another way to keep cops and lawyers in nice homes and sweet rides. If we are going to allow substances that make people do ignorant shit to be sold, bought, and ingested, we should just suck up the consequences instead of hasseling the people that do the crazy shit.

If you allow someone to buy and ingest a product that makes them crazy...indeed, a product that is promoted and advertised...and then they do something crazy and against the law, aren't they innocent by reason of insanity?
Drinking in moderation doesn't make you lose your power of freewill.
Abusing alcohol might make you more like to be an asshole.

In my experience it is largely about the amount of alcohol consumed. I know though, that if I drink too much and do something silly, I only have myself to blame. I don't/wouldn't blame the booze. I still take responsibility for my actions. People who blame booze for their actions are just looking for an easy excuse as to why they are assholes. They are losers.

I think one of the reasons alcohol and its consumption are tolerated (besides the taxes etc) is that folks have been doing it 'forever' and our Western culture has to an extent been shaped by it. For the most part it can help to bring people together socially, and relax inhibitions just enough to get people talking, and get uglies like myself a chance of some action.

Pot-smoking, maybe because it is illegal, tends to happen behind closed doors. Even in Amsterdam you don't get a lot of folks waving joints around in the street. Things might change. I'm pretty ambivalent because it's not my thing-I prefer beer. If it was legalised we could at least have a more informed discussion about it. The perils of marijuana may become more obvious if we had reliable information about what it does or doesn't do.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:54 pm 
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If you "drink too much and do something silly", it is not your fault. The substance makes you silly, so you do silly things, like continuing to drink until you do something really silly. Just as it is with other drugs, the people that create, market, and sell the product are as much at fault as the user.

Pot has been around for as long as booze, if not longer...it just hasn't been popular in Western cultures. It has been studied extensively and we do know all about it. The reason why it was made illegal has to do with hemp being a threat to DuPont and Hearst logging interests. It remains illegal because it is a threat to so many industries...let's see...textiles (clothing), logging (paper), energy (oil), *SPAM* (medicine), distilled spirits (booze), and last but not least, the law enforcement industry ("justice"). The only reason that we are in a good legislative atmosphere for legalization at the moment is because states are flat broke and need something to tax.

There will always be people who have trouble maintaining moderation with any substance. Those that have problems with alcohol are not only a danger to themselves, but also to others...a clear and present danger...and that's something I don't think can be said of potheads.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:29 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
If you "drink too much and do something silly", it is not your fault. The substance makes you silly, so you do silly things, like continuing to drink until you do something really silly. Just as it is with other drugs, the people that create, market, and sell the product are as much at fault as the user.

Pot has been around for as long as booze, if not longer...it just hasn't been popular in Western cultures. It has been studied extensively and we do know all about it. The reason why it was made illegal has to do with hemp being a threat to DuPont and Hearst logging interests. It remains illegal because it is a threat to so many industries...let's see...textiles (clothing), logging (paper), energy (oil), *SPAM* (medicine), distilled spirits (booze), and last but not least, the law enforcement industry ("justice"). The only reason that we are in a good legislative atmosphere for legalization at the moment is because states are flat broke and need something to tax.

There will always be people who have trouble maintaining moderation with any substance. Those that have problems with alcohol are not only a danger to themselves, but also to others...a clear and present danger...and that's something I don't think can be said of potheads.



Great :o

I'll drink a few beers, do something silly.... and I won't be to blame :o :o :o

No more guilt for me...

Looking forward to the weekend already :)

As for the threat to industry, those reasons may have been at least partially valid WHERE YOU LIVE at some point in the past but I doubt that argument holds any water in most of the rest of the world in the 21st century where pot is still illegal...

Surely there must be some other form of recreational enjoyment out there for you. Dandelions maybe :wink:

Best wishes anyway. No offense intended.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:57 pm 
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Yes, the threat to industry still stands.
Hemp make one of the best fiber, it grows very fast and needs no pesticids.
It can be used to make paper, oil, fuel, plastic and many other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp

But I think that mostly, it is a moral issue. Some people have decided that it is just not good to do drugs.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:23 am 
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ZackGlickman wrote:
Yes, the threat to industry still stands.
Hemp make one of the best fiber, it grows very fast and needs no pesticids.
It can be used to make paper, oil, fuel, plastic and many other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp

But I think that mostly, it is a moral issue. Some people have decided that it is just not good to do drugs.


I have no doubt that hemp is a cool product with many uses, but surely that fact would have been exploited by the conglomerates and multinationals by now. What I mean is, the 'threatened industrial concerns' are so diversified these days, why wouldn't they diversify into hemp also eg grow trees for paper, but grow hemp for paper also, maybe in another place geographically where the climate suits the crop.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:42 am 
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Has anyone ever heard the 'conspiracy theory' that hemp illegalization was lobbied by the cotton industry?

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:13 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Has anyone ever heard the 'conspiracy theory' that hemp illegalization was lobbied by the cotton industry?


Yeah. About 5 messages ago. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:17 am 
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this quote just occurred to me:

“Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupis... one of those two doesn't sound right.”

-- Mitch Hedberg

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:59 am 
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Illegalize pot and pans.
Ney, rather pop songs and -fans.

Phrow'em to the cottonwolf.

..you mean wool, doncha?


.........whahhhhh, there's nothing like a quiet bar of Music on the Rocks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:19 am 
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Quilt wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Has anyone ever heard the 'conspiracy theory' that hemp illegalization was lobbied by the cotton industry?


Yeah. About 5 messages ago. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:20 pm 
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feetlightup wrote:
this quote just occurred to me:

“Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupis... one of those two doesn't sound right.”

-- Mitch Hedberg

Just made me laugh out loud. (Oh sorry I mean LOL). That is a good one!

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:36 pm 
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I think the major reason about hemp is that there's tons of people whose sphincters pucker up when anything marijuana related is discussed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:20 pm 
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It's too bad what happened to Hedberg. He was fucking hilarious.

George Carlin on drugs and pot...

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=11818


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Random sobriety tests would breach rights, lawyers warn.

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Random+ ... z0nmyX4z6P

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:09 am 
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Quilt wrote:
I have no doubt that hemp is a cool product with many uses, but surely that fact would have been exploited by the conglomerates and multinationals by now. What I mean is, the 'threatened industrial concerns' are so diversified these days, why wouldn't they diversify into hemp also eg grow trees for paper, but grow hemp for paper also, maybe in another place geographically where the climate suits the crop.


The climate suits almost every where in the world, even in north america:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 481845054#

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I dream of a Levi's pair of jeans made of hemp, just like it was originally.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm 
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ZackGlickman wrote:

I dream of a Levi's pair of jeans made of hemp, just like it was originally.


I think this was a Joan Baez song.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:05 pm 
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ZackGlickman wrote:
I dream of a Levi's pair of jeans made of hemp, just like it was originally.

That'd be one smokin' pair of jeans...sooner or later.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:32 pm 
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Huck_Phlem wrote:
feetlightup wrote:
this quote just occurred to me: “Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupis... one of those two doesn't sound right.” -- Mitch Hedberg
Just made me laugh out loud. (Oh sorry I mean LOL). That is a good one!
This is too true, but you have to accept, that having Lupis isn't necessarily going to make you an asshole. It's difficult having sympathy for someone with an illness, who's giving you shit at the same time.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:04 am 
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Well, polydigm...that just it, isn't it? Drunkards might have a "disease", but they are abusive, mouthy, sometimes violent, and a constant source of worry and danger. The thing is, only they can cure themselves. I know it is difficult, but so are many things in life. When a person has the power within themselves to change their condition, and when that condition is a pain and a danger to others, and they don't bother to even try...then we enter the realm of criminal and sociopathic behavior.

That's why I hate drunkards. They have the power to quit being assholes, but they won't. They think it's fucking funny...they really do, this is not any sort of oversimplification. So, we can blame it on the disease, but if that's the case, why is the distilled beverage industry allowed to continue proliferating the illness? They have created millions of bonked-out mad people, and all we do is yell at the victims?

Yeah, that's what I do, and that's what this thread was originally about. It's all you can do, because Anheuser-Busch rules...but in my view, they owe me lots of babysitting back-wages.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Rope,

you can call me an asshole if you want, but I say this with some compassion. Are you doing the best for yourself, and your loved one by letting the status quo continue?
If you weren't there to pick up the pieces, just how bad could her life get? Could it be any worse? In the long term, and I mean long term, if you bailed on her and she had to pick up the pieces and really confront her issues, could it be any worse then the situation that you and her are in? Ultimately, you are not responsible for her decisions and her life. You might take some degree of solace and some idea of self-esteem from the fact that she is dependent on you, but ultimately she is killing herself, and killing you by her actions, and illness or not, she still has a choice to make every time she opens a beer/wine/bottle etc

If you cannot take yourself out of her equation then good luck.

I hope we, as some sort of bullshit community can support you, in any sort of trivial way, however it turns out.

Apologies if this comes over in the wrong way. Not patronising. Just grim.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:18 pm 
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It can be really rough. My ex-father was an alcoholic until the very end, when the cancer didn't let him drink anymore. And we've got someone in our family now that's on the way. It's very hard to convince someone that they're going down the wrong road.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:25 pm 
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That's quite sensitive, Quilt...so, without giving you a complete autobiography, I will clue you in on my relationship with the woman I consider to be my real wife.

We fell in love before I even knew what alcoholism was. I thought we were just having fun. Her problems began in earnest a few years after we met...DUI's, wrecked cars, drunk in public, fired from work, rehabs, ect. I've moved in and moved out probably more than twenty times. I had been away for about ten years, and then last year I tried it again, thinking she was sincere about quitting. After all, I had given up the weed. It lasted three months before it blew up into something intolerable.

I've told this story many times. This is just the lastest episode, and it demonstrates where she is with her "disease". While she was sober, we had a tense but peaceful relationship. She had a binge in early November, which I will describe as such: On the couch with the curtains drawn, half-full cans of Budwieser stacked up on the coffee table, constant source of ignition in the form of a lit cigarette in her hand, and awful reruns of Law and Order or Criminal Minds on the TV. This lasted ten days.

I eventually broke down and bought some pot, which she smoked up in about two days, and went into a good sleep. I don't know if pot stopped her bender, but I do think it can help. Anyway, I was able to keep her from going to the 7-11 for more beer, and after a couple more days of puking and convulsing and shitting herself, she got sober for about another month.

It was tense, because I was looking for work. She comes from a good family and has plenty of money, but she's not very generous. I suffered that month with a bad tooth she constantly made fun of, instead of assisting me in having it removed.

Her niece was getting married the week before Christmas, and she traveled to another state for the ceremony. At the reception, they had a keg of beer, and she just had to have one. This actually made some of her family members cry real tears. Anyway, I spoke with her over the phone, and I knew that I was in for it when she got back...and I was right. Upon her return, she immediately jumped my shit for nothing, so I packed my car up and got the fuck out of there again. She wanted me to stay really, but she didn't want me to get in the way of her drinking.

So, I came on back here to my alcoholic sister, who manages to make it to work everyday and only gets out of control nights and weekends. Meanwhile, my drunken ex was calling me every other day with her drunken ex talk. She's spending well over five hundred a month on booze and cigarettes, but she couldn't spare a hundred to help me get my tooth pulled...to help the man she "loves" to end some suffering. ( I wound up spending my escape money to have it pulled, later borrowing some to get back home with. She complained that I ate too much after my tooth was pulled. Why? Because she's an asshole drunk!)

Regardless. She kept calling me for weeks...until sometime after Valentine's Day. That's when I knew she had dried out a little, because she quit calling. But think of it, Christmas to Valentine's Day, drunk on the couch. She's got it under control, because it's beer and not vodka. :roll:

A couple of weeks later, she calls again, and she's drunk again. Well, I've had it, and I've had it many times before. I told her she was a sociopath, and explained to her what that was. She agreed, hung up, and I haven't heard from her since. I hope she's sobered up, and I suspect she has, for now.

But, you ask...how bad can it be if I just leave? She manages fine without me, but someone, usually her sister and sometimes her daughter, must check on her every day she drinks, to make sure she hasn't spontaneously combusted or choked on her own puke. How bad could it be? Well, without her money she would be on the street whoring or rummaging. It's as simple as that. Many homeless people are drunkards that people have given up on...and I'm sorry, but at one time I was very much in love with this woman, and I still love her, even though through the years she has treated me like crap. I wouldn't want to see her pushing a shopping cart full of the odds and ends of her life down a broken sidewalk...but that could very well be how she ends up.

...and the beer barons? Heros.

Right now, at this very moment, my sister is fetching another vodka drink. The clink of the ice gives me flinches. Very soon now she will be out in the back yard yelling at her husband again, like she does every time he visits. He's drunker than she is, they're both near Sixty, and they act like stupid children. She was fine just a couple of hours ago. Now she's shit.

Of course, I'd be shit right now if it wasn't for her, so I have to treat her like Elvis Presley, and let her do what she wants, and keep my mouth shut about it. The one time I did say something, because she was phony-drunk crying over some biscuts and gravy, she let me have it with both barrels. Well, I'm having some hard times, but I don't see myself as a loser, I only see drunk-asses trying to make themselves look better by pointing out the flaws and circumstances of others.

It is rather cathartic to write these things out, but I doubt that anyone has any advice that I haven't already heard. We have to live with these things...even if booze wasn't legal they would still find some, even if they had to make their own. But the bottom line is pretty simple...I don't have to take any shit from them, I only do because I know they are poisoned and can't help themselves. I mean, they can once they are sober, but while they are drunk there's no stopping their obnoxious misbehavior. Bitching is about all you can do, and all that does usually is escalate into a horrible argument.

But, I'm telling ya, in the interest of fairness, if we are going to let people be drunkards, we should also let them be potheads, tweakers, and junkies. There really isn't that much difference when it comes to addiction...it's all bad...but some are worse than others, and some are more of a danger to society at large than others. It's time we came to our senses on this issue, and stopped spending billions on a useless "war".

Prohibition does not work.

http://blog.norml.org/2010/05/13/associ ... its-goals/


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:59 am 
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Thanks for writing all that out rope.

I wonder what the statistics are on alcoholics recovering.

Rose says alcohol would have killed her, she had already ended up in the hospital. It killed her husband.

This was all years before I met her 10 years ago.

She is religous and promised God that alcohol would never touch her lips again....and she has been sober ever since with no relapses...nor does she have any "pull" to relaps...she is free.

She occasionally cooks with wine although the alcohol evaporates right out of it (she's really into cooking), and at holidays she sometimes want's to smell some of whe wines we're ooing and awing about...but I know she'll never drink again.

I never knew her when she was an alcoholic, she said she was really bad, full blown until it landed her in the hospital, (she actually died during surgery for almost two minutes).

Of course "results may vary" rope, only you can come up with answers of how you're going to proceed. IMO you're correct if you decide to continue to try to love her, and your correct if you decide you've had enough and you decide to give up on her.

Good luck.

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