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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:06 am 
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Jesus does work for some alcoholics and addicts. That's what AA is all about, exchanging your addiction for belief in a higher power. It worked for my wife for a while...about two years. She was total bitch for all that time, and I was not allowed near her, because of my inability to believe, and my refusal to play along.

Love's not really a choice. Once your in love with someone, it kind of sticks forever. Sometimes love means going away and never coming back.


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:00 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
It's difficult having sympathy for someone with an illness, who's giving you shit at the same time.


A rope leash wrote:
Love's not really a choice. Once your in love with someone, it kind of sticks forever. Sometimes love means going away and never coming back.


There are NO truer words.

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"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:35 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
Jesus does work for some alcoholics and addicts. That's what AA is all about, exchanging your addiction for belief in a higher power. It worked for my wife for a while...about two years. She was total bitch for all that time, and I was not allowed near her, because of my inability to believe, and my refusal to play along.
This is what troubles me about AA, but don't get me wrong, I know they do an amazing job. The meaning to life question is often a root problem with alcoholics, lacking something meaningful to hold on to. Is going out of your way to fill this void with a fantasy really the best way to go?

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:09 pm 
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I always said that if you can get yourself to really believe that Jesus crap, then talking yourself out of drinking should be a snap.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:34 am 
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Rose just said she made a promise to Mary that alcohol would never again touch her lips, and that was it. There was no AA or fancy religous stuff.

...and to her it's not "crap." I don't choose to follow it myself, but I don't insult her beliefs.

And she's a loving woman and a hot shit. :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:36 am 
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polydigm wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
Jesus does work for some alcoholics and addicts. That's what AA is all about, exchanging your addiction for belief in a higher power. It worked for my wife for a while...about two years. She was total bitch for all that time, and I was not allowed near her, because of my inability to believe, and my refusal to play along.
This is what troubles me about AA, but don't get me wrong, I know they do an amazing job. The meaning to life question is often a root problem with alcoholics, lacking something meaningful to hold on to. Is going out of your way to fill this void with a fantasy really the best way to go?

In many European countries the AA methods are not connected to religion. I have no idea about why some become alcoholics, but the cure is very simple: "don't drink". So I am sympathetic towards any method that helps people achieve that goal. If you don't achieve it, you die sooner or later (a recent study in Denmark revealed that over 20% of all hospitalizations are alcohol related).

For me, a combination of cognitive therapy, some anti-alcohol medicine, a realization of my problem (after too long periods of self-denial), and a relapse that once and for all demonstrated that I could never "go back", did the trick.

Rope, I truly hope you will get through this.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:10 am 
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polydigm wrote:
The meaning to life question is often a root problem with alcoholics, lacking something meaningful to hold on to. Is going out of your way to fill this void with a fantasy really the best way to go?


That hits the nail on the head for me; I also tend to think it's basically boredom that drives people to drink (and to do anything else for that matter).

Good luck with your gal, Rope (and look after yourself.too).

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:57 pm 
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The fact that Rose really believes it is what makes it work, and why it cannot work for some people, like me.

All drugs make it okay to be bored. Take a trip and never leave the farm.

I really appreciate all the concern for ol' rope here. Don't worry, though...I've been dealing with this for a long time now, and I have my ways of coping. Vent threads like this one are a major outlet. Thanks for letting me spew.

Here's some backup for my theory that pot can assist drunkards in drying out...

http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/12/01 ... /9863.html

The biggest thing is getting them to sleep good sleep for several hours. I've heard of a South American detox regimen for addicts that includes a few weeks of straight sedation, so that the withdrawl symptoms are slept through.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:02 am 
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Religion is not a fantasy. Most mainstream world religions have been hijacked by politics. Religion is part of the human attributes that go along consciousness. The main difference now, is that Atheism is becoming an increasingly popular religion...

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:24 am 
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Atheism is not a religion, dammit. It's just non-belief in a supreme being. That's all it is.

Some people want to make a religion out of atheism, and many religious people are eager to label atheism a religion, but it is not a religion.

God is a fantasy.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:40 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
God is a fantasy.


Prove it :wink:

As long as it is a belief, or a non-belief, it has the same intellectual weight as religion.

Even though religion is not fantasy, it might contain fantasy and mythical elements. But, my take is that, religion is the expression of Man's interaction with with each other, with nature and with extra-terrestrial intelligence(s), which might or might not have played a creative influence on our conscious species status...

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:49 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
Jesus does work for some alcoholics and addicts. That's what AA is all about, exchanging your addiction for belief in a higher power. It worked for my wife for a while...about two years. She was total bitch for all that time, and I was not allowed near her, because of my inability to believe, and my refusal to play along.
This is what troubles me about AA, but don't get me wrong, I know they do an amazing job. The meaning to life question is often a root problem with alcoholics, lacking something meaningful to hold on to. Is going out of your way to fill this void with a fantasy really the best way to go?


It's tough, I admit, being a lifelong atheist myself. But I managed to find "something" higher than me. In my case, it was my potential - that I really did have a role to play in this life, and that other people loved me and depended on me. And the drinking was sabotaging that. I guess I chalked it up to some sort of universal order of things, call it "God" if you like, that gave me something to live for other than my own hedonism. And in the AA meetings, no one has ever tried to influence my personal discovery of "higher power"; in fact, many of the other members in my room had the same point of view.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:35 pm 
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A famous atheist once said that praying is just talking to yourself. I think that when some people say they have "found God", they have really just found themselves.

Atheists have meetings, belong to atheist groups, and help out atheist causes...but there are no atheist churches, traditions, or ceremonies. Most of all, there is no TAX-FREE status for atheist organizations, and that is the bottom-line test for what is and what is not religion!

Is Zeus a fantasy? The truth is, I can't prove a negative, so it's up to the believer to provide proof of their beliefs. That is, if you want to argue about it. I've got logic on my side, and you have...? A book of Indian lore?


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Is God in a chair waiting to judge?
Is God universal energy of all matter?
...is he Catholic?

...Or maybe God's just the difference between what makes some want to see themselves as good,
...and other's don't care.

In that definition,
some care,
so God exists.

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Last edited by baddy on Tue May 18, 2010 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:24 pm 
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... got the idea shortly before, so it didn't get me by surprise when I read on a (magic) pen "When God created man ... ready? ...was she merely experimenting."

Best view however altogether is imagining that there are several gods of all kindly sorts. ..maybe should one of'em stir on a new thread or summin'. "Does man need religion?" - Yes. So, what's next, boys and girls? we could do with a bit of light, couldn't we? ahh, there's the sun climbing over the horizon, a bit shy yet and hiding behind a layer of clouds. Nevertheless is one now quite capable of discerning ..that the planet is full of foolish clowns.

.. :idea: this' probably why some of us like space so very much, far more than the Dark Ages at the moment!...


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:55 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
Atheism is not a religion, dammit. It's just non-belief in a supreme being. That's all it is.

Some people want to make a religion out of atheism, and many religious people are eager to label atheism a religion, but it is not a religion.

God is a fantasy.



Boy you got that right! Great post!

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Dumb All Over

Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'Cause we behave the same . . .
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the Bible
Tells the story
'N makes the details
Sound real gory
'Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here

You can't run a race
Without no feet
'N pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
'N disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years . . . )

You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
"It gotta be that way!"
But their book says:
"REVENGE THE CRUSADES . . .
With whips 'n chains
'N hand grenades . . . "
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
"There ain't no other!"
Our God says
"It's all okay!"
Our God says
"This is the way!"

It says in the book:
"Burn 'n destroy . . .
'N repent, 'n redeem
'N revenge, 'n deploy
'N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book
'N that makes 'em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD
("Cause he can really take care of business!")

And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'Cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you're using at the time . . . Can't use theirs . . . it don't work . . . it's all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night . . .
Every day . . .
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following God's Orders
Hey, Let's get serious . . .
God knows what he's doin' . . .
He wrote this book here
An' the book says:
"He made us all to be just like Him," so . . .
If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)

DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE

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"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 2:24 am 
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The sun isn't green. Than is a negative. I can prove that through spectrometric analysis. What logic does an Atheist have on its side, besides who created the creator?

The sheer vastness of the cosmos, all the unknown parameters about it and its origins or about the origin of life itself put the question of a deity well beyond any scientific or logic scope, at least for now. There is no better argument for the non-existence of god that for the existence.

Modern Atheism is based on the radical materialism and mechanical view of the cosmos that dates at least to the 16th century (actually to the Epicurian ancient Greek philosophers*), I think it is time for new philosophical paradigms to emerge. If your vision of god is the one of an all powerful old white bearded man sitting on a throne above the clouds, than I don't believe in it either.

But my realization that god, or whatever metaphysical concept to fill this gap, is that consciousness is something that transcends out physical limits of the matter inside our skulls. It is an emergent phenomena, and it's fundamental physics might not just been accurately described yet (with all due respect to my neurologist friends, who do a great job).

But when you experience personally the manifestation of phenomena such as telekinesis (moving objects with the power of mind), telepathy, premonition, channelling, mother-children psychical bonds or a gigantic flying triangle ufo, you might question a LOT of your system of knowledge's validity. I have experienced at least a couple of things from that list (ufo and telekinesis, as well as childhood experiences today I attribute to contact with external intelligences) and that firmly shook my system of beliefs when I finally put it together as an adult.

Today I understand that spiritual awakening is not the product of purely internal neuropsychological imprintings, but more of a further eye opening interpretation of the true reality of our surroundings...

For those who think all this is Cosmik Debris, I suggest checking this experiment:

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

*Since the ancient Greeks (or the ancient Chinese) thinkers have tried to explain the world from a non-supernatural standpoint, focusing on the component parts of systems and trying to apply cause consequence relations to everything. If I get it right, it is the part of the answer that concerns the hows. Now we need to truly understand the whys. Atheism's answer is 'no particular purpose', a believers answer might be 'it is still remained to be seen'...

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:32 am 
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Hey, I'm not saying there aren't odd and strange things in the universe. It's entirely possible that superior beings exist somewhere. But, the typical version of "god" remains a Supreme Entity that created the universe and controls everything in it, including humanity, and in some cases rewards or punishes certain humans in life and even after death. That's the one I certainly do not believe in.

When we believe in a God such as that, we believe in an entity totally seperate from this universe. If It created this universe, it must be made of something else, since it's dooubtful that It could have made Itself. To believe, we have to believe that this entity evolved outside the universe, developing to the point where It could create and control universes. I'd sonner believe that a speck of dust multiplied.

...and I don't believe in other superior beings as yet, either...until we see one, it's all speculation.

In addition to this, we should not assign a controlling being or entity to the various phenomena that strike us as odd. Psychic ability, mass conciousness, telekineses, ect...are all well within the realm of natural chaos...time, matter, energy...shit just happens with these three.

Thanks for th kudos, Phlem...and the song, Disco. Where'd you get that word? Ap-pro-pri-aught?!


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:18 pm 
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Here, I have a nice song too (maybe not up to par DAO, but nice still):

Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I Was Wrong
(Bley)

Well I used to think this talk of spaceships
Was just so much hype
I really believed there was nothing out there
Except the Stars and the Stripes
I mean the scientists said they found out that
There was nothing there on Mars
So as far as I was concerned it was just
The name of a candy bar

I'm one of those kind of people
Who need proof before they believe
Close Encounters left me cold
And Star Trek seemed naive
When it came to UFO's
I was of the scientific school
Little green men with pointed heads
Were for little kids and fools

But I was wrong
I was wrong
I was real wrong
I was wrong
All along
I was so wrong

The people who believed that stuff
Were always kind of odd
I mean you might as well go all the way
And believe in Jesus and God

I knew I had the kind of mind
That wasn't easily satisfied
And besides I had enough problems on earth
To keep me occupied

And then one night I was standing
Looking at the stars
And I heard something that sounded like
A hundred space guitars
The music was so weird it could have
been the theme from Jaws
Then I saw something flying over my head
I thought it was Santa Claus

But I was wrong
I was wrong
I was real wrong
I was wrong
All along
I was so wrong

Finally, for your enjoyment:
I WAS WRONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgmwf4usF1c


http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7577&p=392227

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:42 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
Jesus does work for some alcoholics and addicts. That's what AA is all about, exchanging your addiction for belief in a higher power. It worked for my wife for a while...about two years. She was total bitch for all that time, and I was not allowed near her, because of my inability to believe, and my refusal to play along.
polydigm wrote:
This is what troubles me about AA, but don't get me wrong, I know they do an amazing job. The meaning to life question is often a root problem with alcoholics, lacking something meaningful to hold on to. Is going out of your way to fill this void with a fantasy really the best way to go?
feetlightup wrote:
It's tough, I admit, being a lifelong atheist myself. But I managed to find "something" higher than me. In my case, it was my potential - that I really did have a role to play in this life, and that other people loved me and depended on me. And the drinking was sabotaging that. I guess I chalked it up to some sort of universal order of things, call it "God" if you like, that gave me something to live for other than my own hedonism. And in the AA meetings, no one has ever tried to influence my personal discovery of "higher power"; in fact, many of the other members in my room had the same point of view.
For me, it's firstly that life itself is amazing, for all the wonder and the horror. This is it and I'm along for the ride. But, not just for the ride. What does a chimpanzee do? It does what chimpanzees do, it does what chimpanzees can do, what they evolved to do. We humans evolved differently and our possibilities are a lot more complex and open ended, which scares most people. My sixteen year old son is going through a lot of angst at the moment because he doesn't have a clue what to do with himself. We're working through it together.

There's a huge amount of genetic diversity amongst humans, one of our major advantages, which means there is no one right way to approach life, but I believe if you give yourself a chance, who you are in particular will come to the fore. With me it's music. It's always been there and for all kinds of reasons it's been held back, on and off the back burner. Starting about five years ago I had a major epiphany about it and it's been very much on the front burner ever since. There's nothing forced about it, I'm just doing what I do, for better or worse.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:58 pm 
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baddy wrote:
Is God in a chair waiting to judge?
Is God universal energy of all matter?
...is he Catholic?

...Or maybe God's just the difference between what makes some want to see themselves as good,
...and other's don't care.

In that definition,
some care,
so God exists.
I'm sorry Baddy, but that's lame. My caring has zip to do with the existence of a god. This argument about good intentions and needing a god to go with them was argued out in the nineteenth century. Good isn't some essence like positive charge and Evil it's opposite like negative charge. They are just names we use to qualify certain types of action. Good is associated with cooperation and maintaining a standard of health that maximises survival and so on and these things have been naturally selected for, there's nothing mystical about it at all. Evil is associated with things like corruption and strategies like this have also been selected for, but evil regimes generally end up coming undone, their survival potential for the human gene pool as a whole is counterproductive but they have a limited success with a rapid rate of diminishing returns. The actual, real outcomes of these strategies are what points to their efficacy not some fantasy god that's behind it all.

For me, the god thing has completely flipped itself. If there really was a god, that would make me wonder what was the point of it all. My life matters to me largely because I'm the one doing it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:22 pm 
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...and THIS life matters. It is not a test or a drill. There's just this one.

Life is sacred due to it's absolute rarity. Only this planet, only the surface and a few hundred meters into the atomosphere and under the ocean. That's all the life there is, that we KNOW.

If we kill the Earth, it's not impossible that we will kill something exclusive in the universe. This is all we need for reverance. This is all we have to think of when we decide to grow up and put childish things away.

Logic can be harsh, and truth can be difficult. Adults can handle it.


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 Post subject: ...dust
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:23 pm 
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If dust could only talk
What would we hear it say?
before it's brushed aside
Just as it's swept away

It's just the evidence
It's of no consequence
It's only flesh and bone
Why don't you leave it alone?

If dust could only gather into lines of chalk
Around a silhouette detective fiction walks
For it's the only witness that can testify
Can I spit out the truth
Or would you rather just swallow a lie?

Why did they dam the land?
How did they flood the plain?
Did they erase the name?
And wipe away the stain
You kept your mouth well shut
Appeared to turn your coat
Now there's a name for you but it's stuck in my throat

If dust could only mutter
Or in laughter trill
If it could warn and whisper from the windowsill
For it's the only witness that can testify
Can I spit out the truth?
Or would you rather just swallow a lie?

Here comes the juggernaut
Here come The Poisoners
They choke the life and land
And rob the joy from us
Why do they taste of sugar
When they are made of money
Here come the Lamb of God
And the butcher's boy, Sonny

If dust could only gather in a needle track
Then it would skip a beat and it would jump right back
If dust could only gather in a needle track
Then it would skip a beat
And all the sense I lack


- Elvis Costello


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 Post subject: Dust2
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:52 pm
Posts: 1863
If dust could only talk
What would we hear it say?
Before it's brushed aside
Just as it's swept away

It's just the evidence
It's of no consequence
It's only flesh and bone
Why don't you leave it alone?

If dust could only speak
Caught in a falling beam
If dust could only cry
If dust could only scream
For it's the single witness that might testify
Could I spit out the truth?
Or would you rather just swallow a lie?

But dust is always caught behind a coat of pain
Beneath the marble fingernails of kings and saints
And in the theatre curtain where they hang a drape
Or in the ticket pocket where your hands escape

Before they start to wander
Or they start to shrink
You rub your eye a little and appear to blink
And then she caught you staring
She knows what you're thinking
What got into you is not a ghost as such
It was just dust

Here comes the juggernaut
Here come The Poisoners
They choke the life and land
And rob the joy from us
Why do they taste of sugar?
Oh, when they're made of money
Here come the Lamb of God
And the butcher's boy, Sonny

Well, I believe we just
Become a speck of dust...


- Elvis Costello


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