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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:05 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
And Spacebrother obviously feels guilty for being white.
What makes you think I'm white? Because I actually have an education? Because I'm fluent in English? Because I like Frank zappa? Perhaps it's some other reason.... Please indulge me on your assumption here...


I can tell you that racism is still prevalent in American society, and anybody who tries to claim otherwise are either ignorant fools, or are pathetic racists themselves living in their own ignorant convoluted little world...

What about the Fox News poll where 64% of Republicans believed Obama wasn't born in the US, and was a Muslim? No racism there, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raEex1yAW7w


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:59 pm 
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If the perceived racism that you see is directly aimed at you personally , by all means , whip that race card out and call whoever you think will help.

If it doesn't affect you personally , why bother with it unless you are in need of some personal gain , monetarily or in some other way ??
A boost to your ego as some type of new freedom fighter ??

People like Jackson , Sharpton , Farrakhan and their ilk definitely use the race card for personal gain , but it confuses me as to why a white person would toss it out all the time , unless it's the amount of guilt they may feel.

Some also think that one perceived racist statement from someone can define that person's entire existence.
A very tunnel visioned attitude , I believe.

Personally , I think it does the black community more harm tossing the card into the mix as it has become a cover all blanket that somehow will magically erase all events that might have occurred before the card was even drawn.

The boy who cried wolf comes to mind.

It would seem much more beneficial to focus on the many good things many in the black community bring to this country than to scream racism whenever someone might feel slighted.


I'm sure there is similar thinking in other countries between the races , as well.

Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:01 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
Whatever one might think of him for whatever reason he never comes off as some sort of liar.
Unless you ask him about his racist newsletters.


A claim that you STILL haven't proven. :roll:

downer mydnyte wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
Face it. Ron Paul is worthy of admiration.


He's not sincere. He's reading speeches.

Just like Obama.


He is sincere. He's telling the truth and does NOT flip-flop. And his world event predictions are accurate as fuck.

Not like Obama.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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I was reasonably sure that SPACEBROTHER forum entity would throw the race card on my statements about Ron Paul's admiralty.

But to say that questioning Obama's place of birth or his actual religious orientation is "racism" is going overboard. It's like saying that a person who questions the integrity of anyone that is not their own race is a racist.

It does not matter to me about Obama's lineage. The birth certificate he released is a reproduction based on Hawaiian medical records, not the actual birth certificate. There is room for question there.

As for his Muslimness...he lived most of his childhood in Jakarta, which is in Indonesia, which is mostly populated by Muslims.

http://friendsofindonesia.org/indonesia ... indonesia/

So, there is room for question there, too.

It doesn't matter to me if he is a Muslim, but if I think he is, how does that make me racist?

SPACEBROTHER forum entity's party-line talking point responses are like certain trains.

They are never late.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
He's telling the truth and does NOT flip-flop.


He doesn't flip flop because he wasn't elected president. It's not as if he would be allowed to live up to the goals set forth in his speeches if he ever got into the White house. He tells you what you want to hear knowing full well he wont have to live up to it. Someone has to tell the more obvious truths in order to distract the people from what is actually happening. What is actually happening is America has been sold out.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Plook wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Racism is alive and well in the world. Let's not pretend it's only white people.



Yes, but in the US it is predominately white on black and to a certian degree white on latino, but the greatest injustices befall the blacks and especially black males that are in the criminal justice system.

:smoke:

I know. And that has created more racism.
The prison system is a continuation of slavery.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:49 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
I was reasonably sure that SPACEBROTHER forum entity would throw the race card on my statements about Ron Paul's admiralty.

But to say that questioning Obama's place of birth or his actual religious orientation is "racism" is going overboard. It's like saying that a person who questions the integrity of anyone that is not their own race is a racist.

It does not matter to me about Obama's lineage. The birth certificate he released is a reproduction based on Hawaiian medical records, not the actual birth certificate. There is room for question there.

As for his Muslimness...he lived most of his childhood in Jakarta, which is in Indonesia, which is mostly populated by Muslims.

http://friendsofindonesia.org/indonesia ... indonesia/

So, there is room for question there, too.

It doesn't matter to me if he is a Muslim, but if I think he is, how does that make me racist?

SPACEBROTHER forum entity's party-line talking point responses are like certain trains.

They are never late.

You sound more like Sean Hannity than any of the usual republican forum entities, which is saying a lot. It's easy to defend single statements against racism charges. Add them up and include this country's racial context? That's a bit harder. Hannity's got it perfected, and so do you, judging from this statement. Smart people shouldn't suddenly pretend to be ignorant or stupid like this.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:34 am 
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But can you tell me why questioning Obama's birthplace and religious background makes me a racist?

I reckon not, because all I see from so-called "liberals" on this board is worn-out Democratic Party talking-point cliches.

I'm not even seen sure who Hannity is...some guy on corporate television. You know who he is, because that's where your brain is...totally controlled, stuffed into their mold.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:47 am 
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This Hawaiian official says no long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate exists.

http://12160.info/forum/topics/hawaii-o ... e=activity

It could be bullshit, but is it racist?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:02 am 
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I don't think you are a racist, most people shouldn't be identified that way as an overall characteristic imo. But, that doesn't mean that you or anyone else can't say something that can easily be interpreted as racist.

Your (paraphrased and made more general) question of "If I say this (fill in the blank) about Obama, is that a racist thing to say?" is easily answered yes. I'm sure you've heard over and over in the last several years, people questioning Obama's credentials and heritage FAR more scrupulously than any President in history. If its not racism, I don't know what else to call it. Please give me a name for it. I don't think it can be called Partisanship, fact-checking or any somewhat respectful title. It is not engaging in debate, but baseless accusation. It is the processing of assumptions rather than proving anything. There isn't an argument in the world that someone can't find a hole in to exploit. Questioning Obama's birth record is making an assumption of guilt rather than the good ole presumed innocent until proven guilty that the USA is known for. So, they found some paperwork problems with Obama. Thats it. If you want to make more of it than that, its up to YOU to call it what it is, so what is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:12 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
This Hawaiian official says no long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate exists.

http://12160.info/forum/topics/hawaii-o ... e=activity

It could be bullshit, but is it racist?



No one has faith in goverment to do their job right and keep accurate records or is surprised when something is lost (especially money), but this birth certificate is like the holy grail... :idea:

The subject was dead when they found the birth anouncments in the two news papers, no one would have had the foresight to know he would be President when he was born, and that would be the only reason to need an American soil birth since he would receive his citzenship from his mother if born abroad...

:smoke:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:14 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
But can you tell me why questioning Obama's birthplace and religious background makes me a racist?

I reckon not, because all I see from so-called "liberals" on this board is worn-out Democratic Party talking-point cliches.

I'm not even seen sure who Hannity is...some guy on corporate television. You know who he is, because that's where your brain is...totally controlled, stuffed into their mold.

You clearly pretend to be ignorant, which you are not, in not getting the point of my post.

I don't think you are racist, nor did I say you were. It's not a term one should toss around blithely, from either side of the issue. You apparently thrive on it though. My point, again for clarification, is that when one purposely ignores the context of racism in the U.S., and cherry picks one statement instead of considering the sheer volume of similar examples, it's easy to deny racist comments and feel really good about one's self.

There's only one person I've ever called racist on this board, and he doesn't post anymore and I was damn sure I had it right before I made that accusation.

When you are ready to have an informed, honest discussion about race, I would welcome that opportunity. I imagine that's true for others as well.

As for Hannity, you're probably lucky you don't know of him. I cited his name because he's the "professional" version of your post; he cherry picks like you did, ignores history and context, then calls his detractors racists when they fall into his little trap. If you want to see what I mean, he's on FOX every night and has lots of examples illuminated on youtube.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:34 am 
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You still have not explained how questioning Obama's birth and religion makes anyone racist.

You have implied that I do not get the "subtext" of American racism...but I live in the USA and deal with Americans from all over the USA. Some are racist, many of those are white, but I've met my share of black racists, also.

What I think you are saying is that because we used to have slavery, we need to go easy on our first "black" pResident.

Is that what you mean?

Not gonna happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:14 am 
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Rope, yer rationalizing. You are the only one taking this to slavery and "going easy on him". I won't speak for Ronnys, but I don't get that from his post either.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:25 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
But can you tell me why questioning Obama's birthplace and religious background makes me a racist?

I reckon not, because all I see from so-called "liberals" on this board is worn-out Democratic Party talking-point cliches.

I'm not even seen sure who Hannity is...some guy on corporate television. You know who he is, because that's where your brain is...totally controlled, stuffed into their mold.


If you even had to pose the question on whether or not you are a racist, the answer is most likely yes, you are a racist. Ignorance isn't always bliss.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:04 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
He's telling the truth and does NOT flip-flop.


He doesn't flip flop because he wasn't elected president. It's not as if he would be allowed to live up to the goals set forth in his speeches if he ever got into the White house. He tells you what you want to hear knowing full well he wont have to live up to it. Someone has to tell the more obvious truths in order to distract the people from what is actually happening.


Give me a fucking break. Now you're typically changing the goal posts again to suit your position.

Ron Paul has NEVER BS'ed about his personal beliefs and/or political platform. And you won't be able to prove otherwise. RP has BALLS. And he's told us more truth about the evils and fallacies of the Federal Reserve, Corporatism, particular types of Mixed Economies, Socialism/Communism, Imperialism, Neocolonialism, Keynesianism, etc., that ANY politician you can name. If anything, he's a whistle-blower for fuck sake.

Why don't you lay off your non-sequitur responses for a change? :roll:

downer mydnyte wrote:
What is actually happening is America has been sold out.


Congratulations! You're right about something! :shock:

tweedle-dumb-possible-racist wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
But can you tell me why questioning Obama's birthplace and religious background makes me a racist?

I reckon not, because all I see from so-called "liberals" on this board is worn-out Democratic Party talking-point cliches.

I'm not even seen sure who Hannity is...some guy on corporate television. You know who he is, because that's where your brain is...totally controlled, stuffed into their mold.


If you even had to pose the question on whether or not you are a racist, the answer is most likely yes, you are a racist. Ignorance isn't always bliss.


Oh absolutely! And especially because ANYONE who questions or doesn't support Obama, is a racist too, right?! :shock: :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
And you won't be able to prove otherwise

Your desperation to be perceived as the smartest guy in the room reveals to the truly smart people your deep set and debilitating insecurity. But I don't want to hurt your feelings.
I believe you are insecure and scared, and you will never be able to prove you're not (at least not on an internet forum). Until you can prove otherwise, you are a regurgitation of things you've read/watched with no first hand knowledge of anything. Particularly the non corporate music business, politics and economics.

Your pal,
Downer

Disco Boy wrote:
Why don't you lay off your non-sequitur responses for a change?


Everything that's ever been said and everything that will ever be said is all contained right here in my silence...........


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:34 pm 
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No on has yet answered my question. If you think I am racist for asking it, you may not understand racism.

I am taking this conversation to slavery and "going easy" because I think that is where the answer to my question lies.

I don't think Ron Paul is any sort of major bigot. He's for "all men are created equal", and he likely takes it as Jefferson did when it was written, equal in the eyes of god and in the eyes of the law.

It's a shame the races are separated along culture lines, but everyone holds prejudices. Everyone. It does not mean that someone is a racist. You are only a racist if you believe that your race is intrinsically superior to other races. Racism is not a thing of the past, but it is not so prevalent as it was, because it has become quite clear that there are no supermen.

We are all slaves.

Is all this Democratic Party race card play just a ploy to placate white guilt?

Is that really all they got to defend their pResident?

Is that two more questions that can't be answered?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:05 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
You still have not explained how questioning Obama's birth and religion makes anyone racist.

OK, I'll answer your question. It doesn't. Questioning Obama's birth and religion alone doesn't make anyone racist.

Whew, that was tough. Please don't make me list all the reasons it's a spurious and malipulative question. You're not ignorant or stupid in your other posts, so why would you suddenly be now, on this particular topic? Wise up and think it through.

BTW, we are not all slaves. That's just a downright silly statement.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Try not working.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Yeeesh. Moving on now....

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
RP has BALLS.

But you still have the biggest balls of us all, don't you DB? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:00 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
I was reasonably sure that SPACEBROTHER forum entity would throw the race card on my statements about Ron Paul's admiralty.

But to say that questioning Obama's place of birth or his actual religious orientation is "racism" is going overboard. It's like saying that a person who questions the integrity of anyone that is not their own race is a racist.

It does not matter to me about Obama's lineage. The birth certificate he released is a reproduction based on Hawaiian medical records, not the actual birth certificate. There is room for question there.

As for his Muslimness...he lived most of his childhood in Jakarta, which is in Indonesia, which is mostly populated by Muslims.

http://friendsofindonesia.org/indonesia ... indonesia/

So, there is room for question there, too.

It doesn't matter to me if he is a Muslim, but if I think he is, how does that make me racist?

SPACEBROTHER forum entity's party-line talking point responses are like certain trains.

They are never late.


I'm late!

Though it's not likely to be read, I'll try to point out a couple things.

For at least eleven years and probably longer, I have noticed a rush to judgement by people that is due to what I call associative or even correlative fallacies.

Associations are made or correlations are made by people all over between ideas, facts, objects, people, institutions etc. that are not supportable by the facts and established methods of proof.

For example, you say, half of Indonesia is Muslim in their faith [true]and that Obama 'lived most of his childhood in Indonesia' [also true]. Therefore, you say, it is reasonable to ask questions about Obama's self-avowed faith in Christianity. But this is an inferred fallacy and not a correlative truth. I'll show you how.

"More than half of the US population are women [true], women have vaginas [also true], so therefore you 'rope leash' as a US'er - and I guess, Obama too - must be questioned as to whether you are actual US males. "

Silly right? It's the same associative fallacy thing. A good way out of this conundrum used to be called using common sense. But they don't teach that and parents often don't have it either so ... kids go out in the rain or cold without a jacket and get a cold. And then sneeze it all over everyone close by.


'Not having a [legitimate] birth-certificate' is a more complex, yet also more compelling way to say, '
"[So-and-so] Ain't from around here."
"What was he, born in a barn? HAHAHA"
"Maybe his momma wasn't so proud of that one"
"If his origin is in question - no matter how preposterous - then it becomes simple to claim, that live birth is not part of our tribe."
"If he ain't one of us then he must be against us."
"He must be one of THEM."
etc.

See how easy this is? Certain associations are made, false or true, then certain kinds of speculation are encouraged, again, false or true. Then the most spectacular forms of the results of these speculations are ... embiggened ... and spread all over by certain forms of media ... and within a day or two, everybody says,
"Can you believe what they're sayin on the teevee?..."


I'll never forget when I heard that just after the '09 inauguration Rush Limbaugh called Obama 'a boy, unfit to be the ruler of the free world'. It was in the first fifty days of his first term. Rush knows how many people listen to him and he excels at this sort of associative/correlative fallacy and the speculation that goes on ahead of and behind his little fallacial offerings.
Why would a master of the airwaves and his brand of innuendo stoop to such a racially charged epithet?

Because he knows it will give his audience what he knows they want to hear. Like any showman.

You want more associative fallacies based on speculation?
"Saddam Hussein is involved with 9-11"
"We will be greeted as liberators."
"Don't want a smoking gun to become a mushroom cloud"
"Most black, hispanic people want to do harm to white people, as a rule, for reparations."
"The economic pie is only so big..."
"Your household budget is just like the national budget."
"Cutting budgets in every scenario improves our economic standing."
"Watch this woman act like she wants to give federal dollars to this fake pimp and prostitute."
"ACORN steals elections."
"This video proves black people hate white people."
"This video proves the black panthers want to take away the votes of law-abiding white people."
"Government is the problem, not the business of the private sector!"
"Fannie and Freddie caused the housing crisis and then the economic meltdown."
"Moochers take what you create."
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

Of course there are many more and many more are made up every day.

In my travels, I have found many people who don't want to know the details. They don't want to read the fine print, they don't want to find out the history of it all for themselves. They want someone to tell them what to do or 'what side' to believe in. I understand they feel beset by too much already. They have enough on their plate in life already. Strangely, they want their news- food pre-digested for them, too. "Just tell me what I need to know. If it's a controversy, tell me the two sides and I'll figure out where I stand."
Reality unfortunately is not so black-and-white, not so simplified and pre-digested. The problem is made much worse when based on cherry-picked evidence and then coupled with associative and correlative fallacies and fantasies. Michelle Bachmann, Allen West, Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, all excel at these sorts of things.

Sadly, this is not enough. In all the cases I alluded to above, the big picture has been withheld from the broad national conversation of these topics.

Same with the deal for drones. Same with the deal for whistleblowers. Same with the reach of the US Patriot Act. Same with the deal for acts of domestic terrorism. Same with the fallout from the tsunami in 2011. Same with the oil spill in the Gulf, in Mayflower Arkansas, in Houston and the earthquakes due to fracking. Same with the credit market crash in 2008, the loss and bailout of the banks, the auto industry failing, real estate markets failing, the consequent other bailouts and the fallout from all that. Same with the fantasies about gun regulation.

And the lack of demonstrable evidence or thoughtful logic and common sense tactics pushed by some, breeds more baseless conjecture and speculation for some. Some of the things they've been coming up with for years has allowed many to study this behavior, and others to copy it.

The behavior is showing a willingness to dis/associate things, ideas, people that do not follow logically. Like 'the smell test'. What does that even mean if it is not tribal, aiming to discount what they cannot or will not understand?
On the one hand it's fine that, for example, Michelle Bachmann is free to believe in the successes of 'praying away the gay'. Where she errs is when she wants to make that law. It's fine on the one hand if people are afraid that the boogie man will get their children asleep in their beds. Where they err is leaving the gun they bought 'for protection' out of the cabinet or mistakenly reveal where the key is hidden. Because children mimic the behavior of adults and are naturally curious. And are not old enough to make value judgements about when to use the gun or how. And there are examples of this very kind of tragedy that have happened this week.

The bumper sticker that says, 'A fetus with a gun will not be aborted' is a perfect example of a number of associative AND correlative fallacies. And also perfectly illustrates the lack of common sense that is necessary for these sorts of fake conclusions to be sold and even, 'believed'.

Racism as an american phenomenon is a product and generator of a great number of these sorts of associative and correlative fallacies.

The reason? Fear of the unknown, mostly.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:10 am 
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Nicely Done.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:12 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
RP has BALLS.

But you still have the biggest balls of us all, don't you DB? :wink:

It's that nasty infection - makes 'em swell. Got it from the toilet seat, while reading Ayn Rand.

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