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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:39 pm 
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[quote author=jimmie d link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=210#221 date=04/10/03 at 03:56:05]<br>You probably mean "until the liberation of Iraq is complete" rather than "over".<br>[/quote]<br><br>  ;D ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:54 pm 
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[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#227 date=04/10/03 at 17:18:05]<br><br>My record is and was always clearly against this war. No outcome of this war can change the correctness of that record. [/quote]<br><br>Quite the megalomaniacal position. <br><br>The Iraqi Information Ministry provided children's death statistics resulting from the UN imposed sanctions; the number exceeded 500,000. <br><br>Saddam has killed millions of people; among them Iranians, Shi'ites, Kurds, Kuwaitis and Arab Iraqis, many with chemical weapons. <br><br>This war will not kill 500,000 children; this war won't kill millions of civilians. This war won't kill tens of thousands of civilians, unless Saddam has a nuke stashed somewhere.<br><br>If less death can somehow be construed as being better than more death (can you stipulate to this, Ronnys_Noomies?), it looks like "the correctness" of your record is in serious doubt. <br><br>We shall see.<br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#227 date=04/10/03 at 17:18:05]<br><br>All other alternatives were not entertained before attacking. [/quote]<br><br>This is true. The one alternative that might have worked, UN unanimity in the matter of the threat of force, was never entertained by France and Germany, although this wasn't for Bush's and Blair's lack of trying.<br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#227 date=04/10/03 at 17:18:05]<br><br>It's clear that an unprovoked attack was the goal from the moment Bush floated the idea in the latter days of the Taliban war.[/quote]<br><br>This is clear only to the Bush haters, to whose ranks you have admittedly relegated yourself.<br><br>We unenlightened are unfortunately resigned to considering that your assertion might be true and that it might not. <br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#227 date=04/10/03 at 17:18:05]<br><br> And, as I predicted, thousands of Iraqis are now dead, 125 coalition soldiers are dead, 8-9 soldiers are captives of the Iraqis, several journalists are dead, and Iraq is a mess. [/quote]<br><br>I do admit that you are quite the prognosticator; who could have imagined that a war would result in deaths, destruction and the capture of enemy soldiers?<br>

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:44 pm 
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[quote author=MentalTossFlycoon link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#226 date=04/10/03 at 16:25:58]<br>Whether the propaganda is coming from Hitler or George Bush or Fox News or Michael Moore, it's all the same. It's someone trying to play on your fears, and make you feel better about believing that someone else is scum.[/quote]<br><br>You have to look and analyse thoroughly. And make your own mind about what you see. <br>What I saw, I stated so many times before. It hadn't changed. My point of view is still the same. USA is in the pink period right now. It'll eventually change. Not that I want to. It's just that it will happen. And when it'll happen, we'll ask ourself if going there was really worthwhile.<br>And still no mass destruction weapons found !<br>Why the war so far ? <br>

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:50 pm 
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[quote author=MentalTossFlycoon link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#226 date=04/10/03 at 16:25:58]<br><br><br>Propaganda isn't just being used by the American government to make people feel better about killing innocent Iraqis: it's also being used by the French government to make their people feel better for not doing anything about Saddam Hussein; and it's being used by Muslim clerics to inspire jihad against the Infidels.<br><br>Whether the propaganda is coming from Hitler or George Bush or Fox News or Michael Moore, it's all the same. It's someone trying to play on your fears, and make you feel better about believing that someone else is scum.<br><br>Please remember this.[/quote]<br><br>... and that's why doesn't exist a right war, a war for freedom, or some other kind of war that isn't only "a war"...  <br>

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:17 am 
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[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br>So, your logic is that because he has killed so many people - -  and I'm sure Bush cares so deeply for them all - -  we are OK if we only kill LESS people.[/quote]<br><br>The idea that we are "killing less people" than Saddam doesn't tell the whole story. I believe we're preventing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths over a period of decades by destroying Saddam's regime today. I see his overthrow as an overwhelmingly positive thing, although I realize this approach may be a bit too results-oriented for some ideologues.<br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br> BTW, surely Saddam could have capitulated and possibly the sanctions would have ended.[/quote]<br><br>We have seen Saddam's "capitulations" before. They have never amounted to anything, from the war with Iran through the UN's demands that he withdraw from Kuwait to the recent demands that he comply with UN resolution 1441. He offers his political allies (who he owes billions) an opportunity to manipulate their constituents by making promises that he doesn't keep in order to buy time, but all he has ever understood is force. <br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br>But you seem to neglect the fact that the U.N. and U.S. imposed those sanctions and steadfastly refused to drop them, even in the face of obvious indications that they were resulting in all those deaths (however many thousands there were). I'd say there's a shared responsibility here.[/quote]<br><br>I'm aware of the responsibilities of the UN and the U.S. regarding Saddam. But it is well to remember that Saddam refused the UN Security Council's plan to allow 2 billion dollars' worth of oil to be sold exclusively for food and medicine in 1995, demanding an end to all sanctions in spite of his refusal to abide by the conditions for their removal. And the sanctions never prohibited food and medicine from reaching the people of Iraq; the responsibilities for that failure lie squarely at the feet of Saddam.<br><br>In fact, in 2001, Britain and the U.S. pushed for new "smart sanctions" that would have removed almost all barriers to trade with Iraq, but Saddam scuttled the plan, claiming that it amounted to a "tightening" of restrictions.<br><br>He convinced many that were it not for the sanctions, Iraq would be a bastion of health and prosperity; all the while he and his party members lived in opulence, receiving the best medical treatment, housing and food available; He built scores of palaces and monuments for himself and his family members; his personal wealth in 1997 was estimated by Forbes magazine to be 6 billion dollars, enough to eradicate hunger and poverty in Iraq; and he did it all with funds earmarked for humanitarian aid.<br><br>You are correct that the U.S. shares part of the responsibility for all this; in fact, at one time he was considered (albeit tenuously) a marginal ally due to his war with our old arch-enemy Iran. We believed at the time that supporting Iraq in that war was our best chance at preventing the spread of Shi'ite fundmentalism in the region, as Iraq was purported to be a secular state.<br><br>As we share the responsibility for him, who better than we to deal with the responsibility? It is happening. We are attempting to right a wrong (and although Clinton did virtually nothing for 8 years, Bush has faced the issue squarely just over halfway into his term). I believe that Saddam's military overthrow, since he wasn't stepping down, is the only way to achieve the objective.

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:49 am 
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[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br>You are correct, all else being equal. But why frame it that way? Why justify ANY more death? [/quote]<br><br>I'm not justifying death; I am pointing out that "less death is preferable to more death" because we live in the real world, where practical, pragmatic considerations must frequently supercede wishful thinking and ideologies.  How many Jews could have been saved if the world had confronted Hitler earlier? And although ignorance of Hitler's genocide was the excuse proffered for the world's failure to act, we know about Saddam's genocide, his torturing of political prisoners, his death squads, his multiple and unending human rights abuses. How can any liberal be opposed to this war, unless the definition of "liberalism" has recently morphed into something along the lines of "a political ideology opposed to the notion of a militarily stong America and any outward manifestations thereof"?<br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br>I don't profess to know all the alternatives, but it seemed clear, at least to me, that there wasn't much of a search for them. The UN thing was only for world public relations, anyway. It wasn't a real thing in Bush's mind, since he tipped his hand early on that he'd do what he wanted anyway. France and Germany shouldn't be demonized for standing up to the U.S., as shrill as they sounded.[/quote]<br><br>If you have a shred of integrity you will hold them responsible for their cynicism (you accuse your own government of it). They were opposed to this war for mercenary reasons. Iraq owes them billions. What are they gonna do now? Hold the citizens of a liberated Iraq, and a new Iraqi regime, responsible for Saddam's debts? They'll try!<br><br>[quote author=Ronnys_Noomies link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#231 date=04/10/03 at 20:28:21]<br><br>Ah, the central theme. Yawn. Yes, I am one. I am therefore unable to think clearly because of my irrational rage towards a REALLY REALLY BAD PRESIDENT.[/quote]<br><br>It's a refreshing admission.

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:16 am 
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[quote author=five-five-FIVE link=board=general;num=1048053908;start=225#236 date=04/11/03 at 09:53:33]After posting the previous messgae, I found this:<br><br>http://www.counterpunch.org/christison1118.html[/quote]<br><br>Very interesting reading. I liked the part about the Christian News Monitor Report. These supposely "Christians" are far from the Christ teachings for sure. If Jesus was dead, he'd be rolling in his grave !  ;D<br><br>But, five-five-FIVE  (or should I write it [sub]5 5[/sub]5), good luck when trying to reason with some Bush adorators ! You're in for an endless discussion. When these Bush maniacs don't see farther than that, you can assume their hearing and understanding won't go farther too.                8)

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:04 pm 
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There is a big difference, not only between kneeling down and bending over, but between "adoring" Bush and agreeing with his policy toward Saddam Hussein.<br><br>Plenty of honest socialists, communists and liberals worldwide are in agreement with Bush's policy of force in dealing with Saddam. To brand people as Bush-adorers because they back his policy on Iraq is the laziest, most pathetic, most anti-intellectual non-argument imaginable.<br><br>(BTW, the name of the publication is The Christian Science Monitor.)

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:35 pm 
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ha ha ha, that's great White Person.<br><br>Concerning the war: I'm kinda worried about the French-American relations and how that'll pan out after this. The French do have a good reason to keep Suddam in power, they'll lose a lot of money when it's officially over, but this is pissing off Bush. I hope (and think) that a lot of good does (will) come from this war though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:42 pm 
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white person, I am overcome with a strange and forbidden sensation. Is that Punky Meadows?

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 Post subject: Re: Bush Vs. Saddam
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:33 pm 
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I'm more concerned about the homeland security issues here in the states.  Do you realize how much money is being pumped into law enforcement now.  I like dubya.  Ashcroft scares the shit out of me.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:58 am 
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who won the war ???<br>Image<br>Image<br>Image

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