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 Post subject: WAR. It's what we do.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:07 am 
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This video represents why I support the anti-militarism of Ron Paul...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ2VXJpQ ... _embedded#!

Can we talk about this?

Seriously?

Does anyone think this is funny, or right?

Does anyone think that any other mainstream candidate will reverse this?

Does anyone think that Frank would be for this?

How could anyone be for this?

Yes, someone might call this video propaganda, but I call it truth. Television and radio news is propaganda...painting our deeds as correct and necessary.

I'm getting ready to pay yet another tax bill...for this. I must pay or face fines and jail.

It is criminal.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:38 am 
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This is exactly the response I expected.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:52 am 
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No, I think its the response you hoped for! :)
But, what kind of dialogue would you really like about such a video? Someone to say "War is good" or what? Yer video showed alot of horrors of war. I don't think there are many here who are ignorant of that and those who are ignorant aren't going to come up with a useful dialogue about it.
As for Ron Paul doing anything about that, its part of what is keeping him from being elected. Much of the GOP is built on dedication to a huge military and by extension, war. Anything that reduces military spending, troop numbers, or operations is kicked to the curb.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I thought that if I could get some folks to agree that our way of war is truly awful, perhaps even evil, then I could ask such folks why they would vote for it.

Because I'm in political battle mode. I know that's not on this week here at the fan board, but I poot forth regardless.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:14 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
I thought that if I could get some folks to agree that our way of war is truly awful, perhaps even evil, then I could ask such folks why they would vote for it.

Because I'm in political battle mode. I know that's not on this week here at the fan board, but I poot forth regardless.



Everyone knows War is bad, but it seems to be a human companion throughout history. Even in these modern times there are those who would do really bad stuff to us if they could, we need look no further than Islamic Jihadists to know that.

Then when we enter a conflict we have to watch the robber barons amongst us like a hawk, since they will go to no end to get their way to line their pockets, they got rid of President Kennedy to get Vietnam. With Black Budgets they are getting hard to monitor.

No it is a necessary evil, we will have battles and violence for a long time, as George Carlin said, “Man is a war like creature and we really like to bomb brown people”…For every Gandhi, there is a Hitler, we have to be ready for them…history is ripe with them…Never Forget!


:smoke:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:31 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
I poot forth regardless.


Yes, you are a regular little mormon - Macho Man style. You even have a 'plan for salvation'.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Everyone knows War is bad, but it seems to be a human companion throughout history. Even in these modern times there are those who would do really bad stuff to us if they could, we need look no further than Islamic Jihadists to know that.

Then when we enter a conflict we have to watch the robber barons amongst us like a hawk, since they will go to no end to get their way to line their pockets, they got rid of President Kennedy to get Vietnam. With Black Budgets they are getting hard to monitor.

No it is a necessary evil, we will have battles and violence for a long time, as George Carlin said, “Man is a war like creature and we really like to bomb brown people”…For every Gandhi, there is a Hitler, we have to be ready for them…history is ripe with them…Never Forget!


I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist but I believe it's nowhere near as bad as the US Government is telling us it is. Much of the time, I think it's used to make excuses for engaging in war, so profiteers can profiteer.

Also, I don't think the Carlin quote you used is in the right context. What he said was basically a statement regarding mankind's stupidity and ego. Whereas, it seems you inserted it in your post to somehow justify that he thought war was a "necessary evil." If that was your intention, he didn't. And neither do I (unless it's absolutely necessary)...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:57 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Plook wrote:
Everyone knows War is bad, but it seems to be a human companion throughout history. Even in these modern times there are those who would do really bad stuff to us if they could, we need look no further than Islamic Jihadists to know that.

Then when we enter a conflict we have to watch the robber barons amongst us like a hawk, since they will go to no end to get their way to line their pockets, they got rid of President Kennedy to get Vietnam. With Black Budgets they are getting hard to monitor.

No it is a necessary evil, we will have battles and violence for a long time, as George Carlin said, “Man is a war like creature and we really like to bomb brown people”…For every Gandhi, there is a Hitler, we have to be ready for them…history is ripe with them…Never Forget!


I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist but I believe it's nowhere near as bad as the US Government is telling us it is. Much of the time, I think it's used to make excuses for engaging in war, so profiteers can profiteer.

Also, I don't think the Carlin quote you used is in the right context. What he said was basically a statement regarding mankind's stupidity and ego. Whereas, it seems you inserted it in your post to somehow justify that he thought war was a "necessary evil." If that was your intention, he didn't. And neither do I (unless it's absolutely necessary)...


I just quoted George as a matter of fact, I don't think I need his justification to point out that man has been at war during his entire existence on this planet or that evil doers exist across the planet.

The very next part of Georges quote was, “except for the Germans and we only bombed them because they started bombing the brown people and were cutting in on our action…”


:smoke:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:32 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist but I believe it's nowhere near as bad as the US Government is telling us it is. Much of the time, I think it's used to make excuses for engaging in war, so profiteers can profiteer.

.

Is it not a fact that the US government is the largest terror group in the known universe?
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:17 am 
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Apotheosis wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist but I believe it's nowhere near as bad as the US Government is telling us it is. Much of the time, I think it's used to make excuses for engaging in war, so profiteers can profiteer.

.

Is it not a fact that the US government is the largest terror group in the known universe?
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/



There is definitely some truth to that, but the Islamic Jihadist and there are many, will kill Westerners without provocation if given the chance. They’re religious fanatics and their religion tells them that all but Muslims must go...

:smoke:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:08 am 
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Apotheosis wrote:
Is it not a fact that the US government is the largest terror group in the known universe?
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/

Definitions of terror aside, the journalist didn't really put up any facts did he? Or are we basing these statements as being from a credible source such as "Saudi Girl"? (<---sarcasm) Without more info, this journalist could be considered a traitor, with more info he should probably go into hiding.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:52 am 
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A war on terrorism cannot be fought. Terrorism is a tactic. A war on terrorists can be fought, but it takes a lot of battlefield intelligence and stealth tracking. When one terroist is killed, his brother becomes another.

In our ham-handed way, we often kill their wives and children...but there is no mainstream outrage. For us, it's just what happens sometimes during the process of killing terrorists. For them, it's the beginning of a life-long vendetta.

So when will we know the last terrorist is dead? We can't, so we militarily invade select countries that we declare are harboring them, kill the violent resistance, install a puppet government, make them wear Western suits, and build a giant fortress embassy.

These countries always seem to be standing on our oil interests. Of course, we've been fucking with these people for decades. They don't hate us for our freedoms, they hate us because we've had a boot up their ass for years. Spending billions in an effort to rebuild these countries in our image isn't going to make them forget.

So maybe we should just stop fucking with them.

I can see retaliation for a terror attack. What I can't see is trying to take over the world so every possible terrorist can be watched and/or killed before he can terrorize.

That's an excuse to conquer. The Earth is now a police state. You are with us, or you are against us.

If we combine that with a general suspicion regarding the official story of what happened during the terror attack, the suppression of constitutional liberties afterward, and the knowledge of history, we can see that this is a fabricated enemy, and very convenient one, at that.

Effective, too. My suggestion to anyone trying to understand this concept, is to read George Orwell's 1984, and understand Emmanuel Goldstein.

There is no such thing as a necessary evil. We can do without evil, and in this case, it's evil upon evil.

Did someone call me a Mormon?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:57 am 
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Michael Rivero has website that is pretty good about backing it up with evidence...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... /index.php

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... ladens.php

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... entury.php

Ask yourself...would my government do this?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:43 am 
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I really like that "What Really Happened" website, cool stuff...as to the evil doer Terrorist, just ask the India Hotel guest, or the Somalia Hostages, and the Australian Balinisian Tourist if they think there are Evil Islamic Jihadist Terrorists, I think they would say yes…

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:07 am 
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Rope, I'm in agreement with the concepts of lies and coverups in that CIA should be more forthcoming about things in the past, but I have a question for you -
Where do you stand on the concept of Secrets?

Every government that can, does try to find out information about other governments, under the heading of Security. The CIA is largely covert and can't tell the public certain things and often will make up information to block what is really going on. So, alot of the links (not necessarily any/all of yours, but ya know, its the internet) are often displaying coverups as unmasked secrets when there is no official version. This can be full fabrication or maybe only certain altered details so that things look favorable in a certain light, whatever is to the advantage of the source.
In the past, this has not been a problem since the population at large could never keep up with world politics anyway until the importance of the information is long past, but now, while I consider it OK to question the government, it is difficult to prove much of anything with layers of information which often cancel each other out. Hard-core patriots can deal with this because it always comes down to loving your own country, so if WE did it that means it is fine. For everyone else it is a process of weeding through bits of partial knowledge leading to puzzle logic, dedication to party-in-power, dedication to information source or paranoia.
So, since most people will agree to certain levels of public deception, up to and including full-on war, what perspective are you giving to your call to end all war? On most practical levels its impossible. Do you consider the evil of lying to the public ok if it keeps a war from happening?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:31 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Do you consider the evil of lying to the public ok if it keeps a war from happening?



I consider the evil of a war ok if it keeps the lying to the public from happening.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:49 am 
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There are always secrets, I suppose.

The CIA comes clean on a few things from time to time, usually thirty years after the fact. It seems fairly common for modern historians to highlight CIA involvment in their accounts of South America after WWII. Also fairly accepted are accounts of involvment in the Middle East, Iran, Iraq, all that.

It was a secret at the time. No telling what they are up to at this very moment.

We've been fucking with people for a long long time. Capitalism wants their stuff.

Money, resources, power...it's not about terror. It's about taking over.

The end of war is, of course, an ideal. In the meantime, maybe we can get leaders that will just back off all that shit before it blows into a horrible conflaguration. Maybe we can just come home and think about it for a while. Can we just be The United States of America, or do we have to be The United States of America, WORLD COP?

Lying to the public is not evil if it averts a war.

Lying to the public to start war...that's evil.

...and that's what we have.

Don't vote for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:19 am 
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I still say that President Obama has been highly influenced by what he may have been told in his National Security Briefings, I just can't sit here and say he was an out right liar when there is no benefit to him and in fact his change of position has hurt him with his base. It makes more sense that something that was revealed to him in the briefings made him change his approach, this is why I don't think any candidate that is not a sitting president can assure us they will keep their promises after they take office, especially if they find out that doing the opposite is an imperative...

:smoke:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:19 am 
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Phil Ochs
Cops of the World

Come, get out of the way, boys Quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys Better watch what you say
We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the fort
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

We pick and choose as please, boys Pick and choose as please
You'd best get down on your knees, boys Best get down on your knees
We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
And we don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

Our boots are needing a shine, boys Boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys Coca-Cola is fine
We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

And dump the reds in a pile, boys Dump the reds in a pile
You'd better wipe off that smile, boys Better wipe off that smile
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

And clean the johns with a rag, boys Clean the johns with a rag
If you like you can use your flag, boys If you like you can use your flag
We've got too much money we're looking for toys
And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

Please stay off of the grass, boys Please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys Here's a kick in the ass
We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock
We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block
And we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World

And when we butchered your sons, boys When we butchered your sons
Have a stick of our gum, boys Have a stick of our bubble gum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
And the name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boysWe're the Cops of the World

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:02 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
Lying to the public to start war...that's evil.


Evil is good.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Apotheosis wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist but I believe it's nowhere near as bad as the US Government is telling us it is. Much of the time, I think it's used to make excuses for engaging in war, so profiteers can profiteer.

.

Is it not a fact that the US government is the largest terror group in the known universe?


Currently? Probably.

I should've said foreign terrorism when I made my above statement. My bad.

Apotheosis wrote:
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/


I'm not sure about the above though...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Apotheosis wrote:
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/


I'm not sure about the above though...


BBC news article:
"...Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight
against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The
Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars
and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi
Arabia and Pakistan. He received security
training from the CIA itself."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm

Forbes business information service article:
"...[Osama bin Laden] received military and
financial assistance from the intelligence services
of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States."
http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html
And the list goes on......


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Apotheosis wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Apotheosis wrote:
Did not the CIA hatch al-Qaede?
Or should I say the Military Industrial Complex is the largest terror network ever devised by man?
An American investigative journalist says the al-Qaeda is a fairytale terrorist group made up by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Israeli spy agency, Mossad.
http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/12/3 ... -al-qaeda/


I'm not sure about the above though...


BBC news article:
"...Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight
against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The
Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars
and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi
Arabia and Pakistan. He received security
training from the CIA itself."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm

Forbes business information service article:
"...[Osama bin Laden] received military and
financial assistance from the intelligence services
of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States."
http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html
And the list goes on......


Fair enough. And I tend to think you're probably right. But I'm just not sure we can necessarily believe everything we read, that's all...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:46 am 
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Image

Obama on Trayvon's death: "My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon.. I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're get to the bottom of exactly what happened."

Ok, fair enough. But what about the 16 year old American citizen you assassinated Mr. President? Would he look like you too? Don't we need to get to the bottom of exactly what happened with that as well?
Lets see if anyone out there knows what this is about.


Last edited by Apotheosis on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:49 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
Lying to the public to start war...that's evil.


Evil is good.

Evil plus terror plus fear multiplied by ridiculous hyperbole = maximum profit margins.

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