Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:45 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 551 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 23  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
I think the entire US economy is at jepordy . Today, imo ,the increasing debt, is the biggest problem, you simply cannot continue to spend more than you take in, especially on such a large scale. it has an adverse effect on all levels of the income earners. Pointing fingers at one aspect of the economy is to simplistic...

I agree. Increasing taxes on the rich is only one thing that needs to be done.

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
What is rich and how much? If I add up all the tax I pay, I am at 40% of my income and that doesn't include ,gas ,food, clothes.

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
I am guessing that you are asking "how much?" as a rhetorical question. If not, why are you asking? I am assuming that you are not a billionaire, but I could be wrong. Do you think that the basic premise of more taxes on the rich is correct, but you literally cannot figure out what "rich" is? Or are you arguing that the rich are taxed just right or nearly so? Billionaires should be taxed at nearly the same rate as someone who makes minimum wage?

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
I am asking at what wage is considered rich ,I am not for huge increase on a million and up i am for reducing capitol gains on business ,bring that money back to the us not this crap.....http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/0 ... olar-wind/

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
OK, fair enough. Of course, people will disagree as to exactly which number marks the crossover from being obscenely rich to burdon-on-society-rich. I'm not so interested in a hard number as I am in getting people to agree that at some point the wealthy have abused their privileges in the US. I probably shouldn't continue any further with this discussion since to do so, I'd end up quoting the article that you chose not to read.

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
Why quote, and i would like to hear how someones wealth has abused their privileges. Do you have a personal opinion or just things you hear or read, my post is just like if we are talking.

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:35 am
Posts: 515
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
I liked Thom Hartmann's blog today...


Disco Boy wrote:
Why? Almost NONE of it is accurate. Especially considering Hartmann doesn't even know that we do NOT even live in a capitalist economy. Nor does he know anything about Keynesianism or the Chicago or Austrian schools of economics, etc...


Nor about central banking, the general banking system, quantitative easing, the Bretton-Woods system, Nixon's removal of the gold standard, world currencies, storage of wealth, national debt, the infeasibility / impossibility of taxing the 'super-rich', the reason why inequality is the best option, as terrible as it may be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
Bravo, that's a weird post there. So, I guess you don't like how I post or you think I need to talk my text or should not quote other people. Kinda picky aren't ya? I posted the blog because that was something I thought would make for good conversation. You don't agree. OK. Your joke asking about how rich people abuse their privileges? Good one! Hahaha

tiboudre, since it is impossible to tell if you are being sarcastic or hyperbolic or what, I'll respond in kind: Hahahaha

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:29 pm
Posts: 1714
Location: south midlands, UK
I think (and IMO what FZ probably thought) that if you work hard enough and produce something of worth, you are entitled to big money.
My poor analogy would be I'd rather see richard branson / bill gates as a multi millionaire than a heroin dealer / politician / banker / usurped company director.
Or FZ rather than beiber / an x factor winner.
Its plain that there are an awful lot of people who have accumulated wealth who have done little if anything to deserve of it.
If there was a legal way to cripple them financially for the benefit of poorer people, go for it.
TT

_________________
and I know, I think
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
May be weird, but very serious about privilege abuse ! Seems political abuse to gain election does happen ,such as misrepresenting an entire law, that controls 6% of the entire budget, and increases the national debt an estimated 2 trillion bucks , that kind of wealth abuse !!! Or just what ,some guy that has the good fortune to make billions and not spend it how you like?

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4895
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
What I can never get my head 'round, Bravo, are the people who make millions or billions and try to avoid paying any tax whatsoever. We had just had a case in Germany; business manager of FC Bayern Munich. Name: Uli Hoeness. Made a few millions in his job. Speculated. Made 150 Million Euros. Took it all off to Switzerland to hide it from the taxman. He would have paid only approx. 70 million in tax. He was caught. He has now received a prison sentence of 3 years.
What always amazes me is that this guy has "honestly" made (one guesses) 150 million Euros (no work involved, just investment).
Now, if I'd made 150 million through nothing, I'd be happy. 70 million would not mean much to me - I'd pay it gladly - after all, I've still got 80 million.
But noooooo - he wanted it all!
In fact that's quite often how the rich get rich IMO.
They keep their money - they want it all. That's why most of 'em are rich.
The idea that tax breaks for the rich means they will invest more and it will all kind of trickledown to the rest of us seems not very realistic to me.

_________________
"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
That is why a flat tax seems to be the best idea, but who is going to start a business to hire people? Here in the us the current admin puts the rich tag at 250g, well many small business are between 250 and a mill, so they get taxed to the point that it is a gamble to start a business , this is a large part of why people with money are putting it into stocks , better and for now safer return. Obama is an out and out lier and helping to feed the stock market and cannot figure out why people are not going back to work.
so.....flat tax NO loop holes, term limits, and all of congress must sign up for obama care.

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
I'm not into coddling the rich and can't understand why anyone would. A flat tax says that a billionaire pays the same percentage as a minimum wage worker, and that makes no sense. There are various methods of flat tax and I haven't heard of one that doesn't favor the rich. Are you excluding investment? How they convince people to look at money related to investment differently with respect to taxation than any other kind of income is one of the great swindles the rich have pulled over the rest of us.
Who is going to start a business? Hopefully, someone with a great idea for a new business. I'm always hearing about great ideas for small companies that get backed on Kickstarter. If you are talking about who is going to start a new big corporation, I'm not worried at all. They are a plague.

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
Well I know a guy starting a business only to employ 3 people, the present tax structure is killing him, corp. are a plague? man you are lost, ok take away all corporations, what do you have? now you are talking shit like bill aires did in the sixties, you are to young to remember that. Now that revolutionary, has a pension! So wtf ?You need to bone up on flat tax ideas, yes NO loop holes, so 18% of a billion is way more than would be paid under current tax laws, Start with the good old Consumer Reports evaluation of flat tax, then move on, you got a better idea? You like what is happening to our tax dollars? The corruption ,fraud and just plain waste would fund health care. Man not a bad debate, but i think you are not well informed, talk to someone who has worked for a government agency on any level and ask about waste. Look at How Illinois has handled their budget, not good.

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
OK, you don't think corporations are a plague. Are you on the extreme other side of the argument and consider them to be people?
18% taxes for a billionaire is pathetic and an insult to the country that made such prosperity possible.
We're pretty far from the original thought of whether the Middle Class will survive and you keep pushing the topic into other areas. I've gone very far away from the original point answering questions NOT related to the original premise, so maybe you can give it a try?
I'll to try to recap to get the question back in focus:

(Other than you thinking all of the economy being bad for a bagful of reasons) Do you think the Middle Class will survive as-is, continue shrinking or increase in size? I don't think anyone has given any concrete answer, guess, or much of anything on that question.

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3561
I already answered, none of the economy will survive, if the national debt continues to grow, not the bottom , middle or top, it will collapse, the debt where it is now is hard for most to understand, the growth of the economy is tied to this massive debt, we have a pres. that just two weeks ago said the debt was irrelevant, also you must not understand what a billionaire pays in taxes now, as the flat tax even at 18% would be much more, again go find a copy of consumer reports analysis of flat tax the charts are there, most likely some sort of graduated scale but what is going on now ain't doing it. You seem to underestimate, how much of our taxes are lost to fraud, waste. You still didn't give the figure you think is rich, or middle class, Most of us don't want to pay more tax cause it is wasted, stop spending, and control unfunded entitlements, look in 1965 LBJ pitched medicare, it coat 65 million, with an m, what is it now? try trillions. I appreciate your debate but really do some research. It is complex, and the politicians are the one fucking us not corporations, at least the ones that keep their money here.

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
Well, Bravo, considering our past conversations, I consider this a success. So, I'll stop now before I start criticizing the many thing I find wrong with your last post. Fair enough?

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:22 am
Posts: 969
How about we get our dollar's worth of service from the gov't , and not the typical 12 cents . :|

We could take all of the fat cats monies , and everybody else's , and still have a shortfall if we don't have people in power with basic math skills that know how to use them.

Taxing is not the solution , overspending is the problem .
How many people here are living beyond our means ?
I don't understand why some people are branding rich people ( that made it on their own ) as criminals when the real criminals are taxing us to death , eavesdropping , singling people out because of their political stance and then lying about it. How about we get rid of their phony jobs , along with their salary , and tax the fuck out of them ?

It would be a good start imo.

Just a thought.

:smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:52 pm
Posts: 1863
From about 1930 to about 1980, the top bracket tax rate in the US was above 60%. From the late Forties to the late Sixties it was in the area of 90% and over.

http://www.businessinsider.com/history- ... 012-5?op=1

One school of thought is that the rich have more than they could ever want or need, and five or six pairs of shoes is plenty when you already have two Bentleys. Give the rest up for the common good of the nation.

Another school of thought says you can't have enough shoes or Bentleys. Fuck the common good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: Vancouver, BC
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Sorry, DB, not a very insightful reply. You seem stuck somehow. Oh, well, too bad. I suppose next I'll hear some more of your thoughts on MIXED economies. Round things are boring. Merry-Go-Round doot doot doot. I should wonder what comments would come from The DB School of Economics... but I'd rather not.


This thread is 9 pages long. Have you read it? If you have, you'd already know I've gone into explicit detail regarding a multitude of questions, reasons and rationalizations as to why the economy is the way it is right now. And as usual, BRAVO SIERRA, pedro 2 and tiboudre make excellent points. Whereas, you're probably still trying to figure out how to pronounce or enunciate Keynesianism.

Not understanding economics, supply & demand & how markets work, is the equivalent of driving a vehicle and not knowing where the engine is or what it does..or a non FZ fan thinking he was strictly "comedy rock." Please study up, because if you seriously think over-taxing / regulating business is going to provide them the incentive to earn more wealth in order to invest & create more jobs (or better ones), instead of forcing them to either fold or more overseas to look for realistic opportunities to create those things, which is what is really happening right now, you're in left-wing fantasy land...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Last edited by Disco Boy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2364
Who here believes that Walmart gives a fuck about your family?

Image

It's the planet of robot slaves. The way they treat this planet you'd swear they must have long since colonized another one. I know one thing, the industrial revolution was either ill intentioned or very poorly thought out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: Vancouver, BC
downer mydnyte wrote:
Who here believes that Walmart gives a fuck about your family?


So they're required to give a fuck about your family?

downer mydnyte wrote:
It's the planet of robot slaves.


No, it's a planet of mostly hard-working people earning their way to build a life for themselves.

downer mydnyte wrote:
The way they treat this planet you'd swear they must have long since colonized another one.


This planet has survived ice ages, natural disasters, meteor showers, etc., and for TENS OF MILLIONS of years. So I think it can survive the principles of Capitalism just fine.

downer mydnyte wrote:
I know one thing, the industrial revolution was either ill intentioned or very poorly thought out.


As your posting history PROVES, you don't know SHIT. Without the Industrial Revolution (THE largest economic boom in world history), we probably wouldn't be here discussing these things...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3237
Location: Between the Badges
Well, it looks like there still isn't much coming from the DB School of Economics except comparing economics with comedy rock. Good job, your YEARS of study are really paying off with analogies for the ages. Most people who drive cars have 2 questions on their mind: "Where is the engine?" and "What does it do?"

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:18 pm
Posts: 578
Location: Over there! (last)
Disco Boy wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Who here believes that Walmart gives a fuck about your family?
So they're required to give a fuck about your family?

Image

_________________
Image Nothing is permanent but change.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: Vancouver, BC
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Well, it looks like there still isn't much coming from the DB School of Economics except comparing economics with comedy rock. Good job, your YEARS of study are really paying off with analogies for the ages. Most people who drive cars have 2 questions on their mind: "Where is the engine?" and "What does it do?"


Yet another ad hominem.

If you really think that, you obviously still haven't read this entire 9 PAGE thread yet. You know, I thought you'd come up with a more convincing argument than that. But then again, you obviously can't. So I guess it's not a surprise...?

Mr. Nice Guy wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Who here believes that Walmart gives a fuck about your family?
So they're required to give a fuck about your family?

Image


You're TOTALLY missing the point of my statement.

And not only that, but most Walmart jobs are NOT meant to pay a living wage, since most of their employees are just entering the work force and hence, NOT experienced. So, considering that, wtf should Walmart pay an entry level employee a unionized wage, ala $25 per hour, when they don't have the experience to earn that wage, especially considering many other workers in other industries aren't necessarily making that with 5-10+ years worth of experience? That's NOT how the market works. And if it did, it would establish a VERY dangerous precedent for employers, especially ones that can't afford a wage like that (most employers)...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 551 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 23  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group