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 Post subject: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Which characteristics do they share?
How about intransigence for a start.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:22 am 
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She liked Pinochet?
She was one of the major reasons why I moved away from Great Britain. He's welcome to her...

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:18 am 
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One was Prime Minister of England, and the other is a poster on and obscure rock star fan forum. There is no comparison in the category of importance, or worth, or status as a relevant topic.

What some "liberals" are doing here is trying to make a "conservative" feel bad about being "conservative" by stacking the conservative up against Margaret Thatcher, a much admired conservative, at least in the realm of American conservative thinking.

This is like trying to convert the Pope. I don't mean to compare Disco Boy to the Pope, but the point is made.

I understand that Thatcher is much despised among European liberals. I never cared for her myself, but I don't really care for any politician, and British politicians are downright creepy. I do like that George Galloway, though.

But...this is all spiteful crapslinging by folks that think they are correctly informed. None have any proof that they are.


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:43 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
...this is all spiteful crapslinging by folks that think they are correctly informed.

I'm not claiming to be informed. I'm making a point though that DBs views invade too many threads and he should keep those views on the threads most people generally won't bother reading - like this one I hope.
Anyway, 'intransigent' isn't particularly spiteful - but we'll see how it goes down.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:43 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
...
What some "liberals" are doing here is trying to make a "conservative" feel bad about being "conservative" by stacking the conservative up against Margaret Thatcher, a much admired conservative, at least in the realm of American conservative thinking.
...

I disagree. Should your post be reduced to: Some "conservative" is just trying to show generic support for another Ron Paul supporter?

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:08 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
What some "liberals" are doing here is trying to make a "conservative" feel bad about being "conservative" by stacking the conservative up against Margaret Thatcher.

In case you didn't see it ropeleash, this is DB stacking himself up with thatcher on the youtube thread, which IMO has "no importance, or worth, or status" in that topic.
Disco Boy wrote:
Thatcher on Socialism...
(BTW I deleted the link here cos I have no wish to inflict thatcher on anyone)
This is one of my all time favourite clips. And for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because of how of the opposition admits she, "achieved substantial successful for the economy." Secondly, when she states, "ALL income levels were better off than they were in 1979." And lastly, since it displays how ignorant lefties are regarding economics in general, since they don't even remotely realize that there actually NEEDS to be relative inequality in the marketplace in order for Capitalism to work...

TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:31 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
One was Prime Minister of England, and the other is a poster on and obscure rock star fan forum. There is no comparison in the category of importance, or worth, or status as a relevant topic.

What some "liberals" are doing here is trying to make a "conservative" feel bad about being "conservative" by stacking the conservative up against Margaret Thatcher, a much admired conservative, at least in the realm of American conservative thinking.

This is like trying to convert the Pope. I don't mean to compare Disco Boy to the Pope, but the point is made.

I understand that Thatcher is much despised among European liberals. I never cared for her myself, but I don't really care for any politician, and British politicians are downright creepy. I do like that George Galloway, though.

But...this is all spiteful crapslinging by folks that think they are correctly informed. None have any proof that they are.


Actually, Rope, Disco Boy's original post was aimed at "lefties" and "socialists", his usual designation for anybody who does not hold his views. I wouldn't describe myself as a "liberal" either.

I would have no hope in changing Disco Boy's opinion, just because, according to him, it isn't an opinion, it's a FACT. Plus, he wants to punch me in the face.

My negative view of Thatcher is based on living in Britain during the Thatcher years, reading both volumes of her autobiography (my sister bought them for me, on request, from Waterstone's and felt very ashamed doing it), Hugo Young's excellent "One of Us", Alan Clark's Diaries and John Major's autobiography, as well as a number of other books about the period, all of which present different views on her. I suppose I could post a picture of those books in my bookshelves - but would that be a 100% proof that I've read them?
Seriously, she interests me, you see. I have thus formed my opinion, which I think is pretty well-informed. It's still only an opinion, though. Am I not allowed to express it?

I also found the reaction to that Meryll Streep film also rather interesting. Most people who hated Thatcher felt their negative impression was confirmed, most people who adored her, thought that positive impression was confirmed. What her haters hated about her, her admirers loved. So they probably did something right.

I agree with you about most English politicians - George Galloway has his up and downs, but he's good for a laugh (in a positive sense).

BTW. immediately before DB posted his link on the Youtube thread, I had posted a humorous sketch by Harry and Paul of Mandela chucking a wheelchair bound Thatcher over a cliff. I posted this because I thought it was funny, not necessarily for political reasons, and DB's speech seemed to me to be a reaction to that.

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Last edited by Caputh on Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:12 am 
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Caputh wrote:
BTW. immediately before DB posted his link on the Youtube thread, I had posted a humorous sketch by Harry and Paul of Mandela chucking a wheelchair bound Thatcher over a cliff. I posted this because I thought it was funny, not necessarily for political reasons, and DB's speech seemed to me to be a reaction to that.

It was funny - no problem. So was spitting image, including when rubber thatcher was being funny (e.g. what about the vegetables - they'll have what I'm having etc). Trying to quash humour (it does belong in forums) with a political rant is pretty much what censorship aims to do. Presumably as DB does it, FZ would too eh?

:mrgreen:

TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:41 am 
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Ah, Spitting Image...
Just to prove that Thatch was not the only wally...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFx9u1t1LY
DB might even like this one.

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:15 pm 
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deuce wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
...this is all spiteful crapslinging by folks that think they are correctly informed.

I'm not claiming to be informed. I'm making a point though that DBs views invade too many threads and he should keep those views on the threads most people generally won't bother reading - like this one I hope.
Anyway, 'intransigent' isn't particularly spiteful - but we'll see how it goes down.
TT


My views invade too many threads...and then in spite of that you create a thread about my views? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:27 pm 
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I admit to not paying close attention. My whole point is that it's all pointless.

All information is suspect. Folks tend to shop for fit when it comes to information. Believing something is ridiculous. Speculation is all that can be accomplished. Opinions are a joke when nothing is correct or incorrect, when information cannot be trusted, when education is marketed, when the major means of mass communication is owned and controlled by interests so far removed from the common man as to be almost alien.

Margaret Thatcher was Ronald Reagan's secret fuckhole in the fantasy of many an American conservative. Capitalism as a savior of mankind fails in any forecast, but it keeps us all in chips and dip for the time being. Capitalism is all we really have, its will to survive fueled by the bottom line, dominating nearly every aspect of human existence. It doesn't matter what it is, it is about money.

The people that control capitalism control the world. It's not your Congressman. It's not your party. It's not your pResident. Those people are a front.

What you were taught, what you gathered from mass media, what you dreamed this morning after you rolled over to get an extra ten, what you pulled out of your ass at the last minute of an overlong and stupendously boring post on an obscure rock star fan forum...it's all so very unimportant.

As a matter of fact, we are all so incredibly small we might as well be microscopic.

Even Margaret.


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Thatcher's biggest accomplishment...

Quote:
Margaret Thatcher's most important long-term legacy is likely to be the huge rise in inequality that she caused. The widening of income differences between rich and poor that took place during the 80s (particularly from 1985) is the most rapid ever recorded. The most widely used measure of income differences shows inequality increasing by more than a third during her period in office.

The proportion of children living in relative poverty more than doubled during the 80s, and the damage has never been undone. Many of the effects of inequality have long lag periods. As Danny Dorling says in his 2004 study of the rise in violence: "Those who perpetrated the social violence that was done to the lives of young men starting some 20 years ago [the mid-80s] are the prime suspects for most of the murders in Britain." The young men were those whose childhood was blighted by the effects of relative poverty and inequality on family life...

The price we all continue to pay for Thatcherite policies is to live in a less cohesive and more antisocial society, in which community life is weaker, people feel less able to trust each other and fewer of those in government have the experience and compassion to represent or understand the vast majority.

Thatcher's infamous failure to recognise the existence of society was a double failure. A growing body of research now shows that the quality of social relations is among the most powerful influences on the happiness, health and wellbeing of populations in the rich countries. After material needs have been met, research has repeatedly shown that further rises in material standards contribute less and less to wellbeing. In rich societies such as the UK, what makes most difference to the real quality of our lives is the quality of community life and social interaction.

Statistics now confirm what many people have always recognised: that inequality is divisive and socially corrosive. The evidence shows that greater equality provides the foundation on which higher standards of social wellbeing can be built.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... e-business


Proof positive that Conservative policies don't work.


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:49 pm 
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We cannot accept any information provided by Empire.

Spain did not sink the Maine.

Pearl Harbor was not a surprise.

The Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened.

Muslims did not attack us on 9/11.

Want links? Fuck you. You know the truth.

Your opinion has been sold to you.

IT IS A GIGANTIC MASS DECEPTION.

Why give it credence?


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Maggie is the reason the final cut is only maybe half listenable. Fuck her and Roger Waters. What a joke. Waters bitches about the rest of floyd coasting and then trots out his oldies for a decade and a half with no new album.
Maggie what did we do?


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Roger Cohen wrote:
“Conspiracy theory is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world.”


Bill Maher wrote:
New Rule: Conspiracy theorists who are claiming that we didn't really kill Bin Laden must be reminded that they didn't think he did the crime in the first place. Come on, nutjobs, keep your bullshit straight: The towers were brought down in a controlled demolition by George W. Bush to distract attention from Hawaii, where CIA operatives were planting phony birth records so that a Kenyan named Barack Obama could someday rise to power and pretend to take out the guy we pretended took out the Towers. And I know that's true because I just got it in an e-mail from Trump.”


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
My views invade too many threads...and then in spite of that you create a thread about my views? :roll:

Good point, DB. But can't you try a little harder not to be so ridiculous? There is no proof in words. I could say, "I'm gonna punch Caputh in the face." Later that very day, Caputh gets punched in the face. But I didn't do it. I said I was gonna do it but I didn't. A court of law might use those words against me and blame me for the assault even though I had nothing to do with it. Words are a virus. Words are never proof. Proof is just a word.


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:10 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
My views invade too many threads...and then in spite of that you create a thread about my views? :roll:

Yeah, I'm aware of the irony. The bad blood on this forum isn't great reading. I'm not interested in stopping it, but I want to know where it is so I can avoid it.
FZ being libertarian - maybe, I dont care. I dont have a problem with most people having their views. I have a major problem with thatcher though. My view is that only cirmcumstances prevented her from being as terrible as stalin, hitler, saddam etc. Like them, she hated significant sections of her country. I am certain she would have gassed me if possible. Then again, a lot of people probably want to.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:01 am 
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deuce wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
My views invade too many threads...and then in spite of that you create a thread about my views? :roll:
Yeah, I'm aware of the irony.
The Douche Bag is missing the point as usual. This is a thread about the Douche Bag invading threads. It's not a rant invading another thread. Don't open it if you don't want to. Read other threads that you'd rather, which all will have some likelihood of being invaded by the Douche Bag.

The only irony here is that the Douche Bag has invaded a thread about the invasion of threads by the Douche Bag.

Nice catch Mr Deuce.

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:03 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
I admit to not paying close attention. My whole point is that it's all pointless.

All information is suspect. Folks tend to shop for fit when it comes to information. Believing something is ridiculous. Speculation is all that can be accomplished. Opinions are a joke when nothing is correct or incorrect, when information cannot be trusted, when education is marketed, when the major means of mass communication is owned and controlled by interests so far removed from the common man as to be almost alien.

Margaret Thatcher was Ronald Reagan's secret fuckhole in the fantasy of many an American conservative. Capitalism as a savior of mankind fails in any forecast, but it keeps us all in chips and dip for the time being. Capitalism is all we really have, its will to survive fueled by the bottom line, dominating nearly every aspect of human existence. It doesn't matter what it is, it is about money.

The people that control capitalism control the world. It's not your Congressman. It's not your party. It's not your pResident. Those people are a front.

What you were taught, what you gathered from mass media, what you dreamed this morning after you rolled over to get an extra ten, what you pulled out of your ass at the last minute of an overlong and stupendously boring post on an obscure rock star fan forum...it's all so very unimportant.

As a matter of fact, we are all so incredibly small we might as well be microscopic.

Even Margaret.


Well, since she influenced my life to the degree that I no longer wanted to live in the country of my birth, I, personally, found the effect of her on my life to be of some importance.

The fact also that her intended aim was to give the people who control capitalism more control over the world and influenced others to do so as well, seems to make her an object for study in my eyes.

It is actually possible to attempt to evaluate IMO; that is why I read Thatcher's autobiographies. I wanted to understand her on her own terms and I must admit that I did not approve of what I read.

As regards secondary sources, I think my eldest son made a very good point the other day. He is reading "The Annals" by Tacitus and he said what he liked about Tacitus was that he gave a very biased opinion on e.g. the Emperor Tiberius, but at the same time provided enough further evidence so that one could form one's own interpretation.

As regards your alternative take on history, I'm not disputing that some of the ideas you mention are entirely possible. However, how did you gain this impression? Did you e.g. just watch raw news footage of Pearl Harbor with no sound and then reach the conclusion that Roosevelt knew in advance?

As to our insignificance, isn't everybody insignificant (apart from oneself)? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:09 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
As a matter of fact, we are all so incredibly small we might as well be microscopic.

Maybe, but as gigantic as uranus is, it cant enjoy a cigar.
TT

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:20 am 
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Quoted from the Youtube thread...
Disco Boy wrote:
Thatcher on Socialism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

This is one of my all time favourite clips. And for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because of how of the opposition admits she, "achieved substantial successful for the economy." Secondly, when she states, "ALL income levels were better off than they were in 1979." And lastly, since it displays how ignorant lefties are regarding economics in general, since they don't even remotely realize that there actually NEEDS to be relative inequality in the marketplace in order for Capitalism to work...

deuce wrote:
DB - take your right wing agenda to your other dipshit threads. I've started one for you in fact.
TT


Hmmm...you do know that most of FZ's beliefs were Libertarian-based, don'tcha? :wink:


Yes, Zappa was an enormous fan of Thatcher. This is why he had such positive things to say about her policies in The Real Frank Zappa Book...

"The new drug law that mandates the death penalty and confiscation of property connected with any drug-trafficking operation could lead to some intriguing conversations with Mrs. Thatcher. British offshore banking policy allows -- even promotes -- practices which assist in the laundering of drug money.
Of all foreign governments involved in the current epidemic of LBOs and purchases of American assets -- including the Arabs, the Germans and the Japanese -- Britain (or unknown entities acting through British banking agents) has grabbed the most.
In many respects, the U.K. is well on its way to becoming a Third World nation -- where the fuck are they getting all the cash to buy us up?
Is it an act of war to buy somebody's country out from underneath him? If somebody offers to buy your country (or what amounts to economic control of your country), and you sell it to him, does that mean your country plans to go into 'retirement'? What are we gonna do? Take the cash and move to Switzerland?"
http://pierroule.com/ZappaRealBook/TheRFZBook.htm

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:46 am 
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I never understood FZ's political ramblings in TRFZB. Must've been because the book was already well over a decade old when I first read it and I had, and continue to have, little interest in 1980s politics.

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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:29 am 
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I'm sorry you feel that way...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:24 am 
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USS Maine:

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/nav ... smaine.htm

Pearl Harbor:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl.php

"...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." ARMY BOARD, 1944

Gulf of Tonkin:

http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhist ... out-tonkin

9/11/2001:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-911-at ... nt/5373217





Education is controlled, media is controlled, we are controlled. Sitting here arguing about anything using information provided mostly by official sources is simple folly, especially while information to the contrary exists. If we really trust our governments and our leaders, we are really stupid. They have shown themselves time and again to be lying, manipulative sociopaths bent on war and profit.

The links above provide fairly good evidence that we have been deceived in the past. No one has to believe any of it, but if you really think three skyscrapers are going to come crashing down in a matter of seconds because of relatively minor fires I have a whole lot of wooden nickles for you.

We should not fall into the game of debates over phony issues created by Empire. This is the circus that keeps us distracted. Concentrate on facts that can be proved, which are very rare, instead of what you were told were facts.

People lie, especially powerful people.


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 Post subject: Re: thatcher and DB
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:07 am 
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"if you really think three skyscrapers are going to come crashing down in a matter of seconds because of relatively minor fires I have a whole lot of wooden nickles for you".

You are a victim of your own spin.
How about the mass of a full passenger airplane sitting on the severely damaged structure - once one floor goes, its then the unsupported mass of 1/4 or 1/3 of a tower, increasing in mass with every floor that collapses exponentially.
I don't doubt there's mischief afoot to a degree, but each time shonky science like yours is used, it tars any genuine contrary evidence, and strenghthens the case for the state etc.

TT

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