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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:35 pm 
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In other words....Disco Douche doesn't have a clue about health care costs of private versus social.


Happy Reading: the healthcare edition!
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/201 ... tries.html


More Happy Reading!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/2 ... 57266.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Government and private health and public policy analysts have compared the health care systems of Canada and the United States. In 2004, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was more than double that in Canada: in the U.S., it totaled US$6,096; in Canada, US$3,038. Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the U.S., in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal, found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States,... Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S....

Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world, but is one of the few industrialized countries that lacks some form of universal health care. Health insurance in the U.S. is expensive, rapidly rising costs are affecting employers and consumers as well as the government, and a study in Health Affairs concluded that half of personal bankruptcies involved medical bills...

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Health ... ted_States


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:13 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
In other words....Disco Douche doesn't have a clue about health care costs of private versus social.


Happy Reading: the healthcare edition!
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/201 ... tries.html


More Happy Reading!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/2 ... 57266.html


Government and private health and public policy analysts have compared the health care systems of Canada and the United States. In 2004, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was more than double that in Canada: in the U.S., it totaled US$6,096; in Canada, US$3,038. Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the U.S., in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal, found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States,... Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S....

Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world, but is one of the few industrialized countries that lacks some form of universal health care. Health insurance in the U.S. is expensive, rapidly rising costs are affecting employers and consumers as well as the government, and a study in Health Affairs concluded that half of personal bankruptcies involved medical bills...

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Health ... ted_States


ROTF!

How in the world does the above reinforce your point?! In fact, it reinforces mine. It analyzes and compares US healthcare (which AGAIN, is primarily a socialized system) costs with the rest of the world and clearly shows that US costs are WAY more expensive.

Your idiocy knows no bounds... :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:56 am 
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You don't know how to read graphs...no surprise there. :lol: :lol:

A monkey can read a graph...
http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg

http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg


Pay particular to the light blue lines in the graphs that represent private expenditure costs in the USA compared to the rest of the countries listed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:21 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
You don't know how to read graphs...no surprise there. :lol: :lol:

A monkey can read a graph...
http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg

http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg


Pay particular to the light blue lines in the graphs that represent private expenditure costs in the USA compared to the rest of the countries listed.


What you don't seem to understand (not that it's surprising), is that the public/private cost comparison is relatively the same in the US. Whereas, with almost ALL of the rest of the countries listed, the public costs are MORE. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:55 pm 
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You'll also notice that the private cost in my country costs more than the entire cost of public and private in your country. What part of that don't you get? In America, we're getting thoroughly ripped off. You don't live here (supposedly), so you don't fucking know moron. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:38 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
You'll also notice that the private cost in my country costs more than the entire cost of public and private in your country. What part of that don't you get?


That's incorrect, dipshit. Look at it again.

tweedle-dumb wrote:
In America, we're getting thoroughly ripped off. You don't live here (supposedly), so you don't fucking know moron. :roll:


In America, you're ALWAYS getting thoroughly ripped off and that's because your healthcare system is primarily socialized... :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Just to be clear DB, doesn't Canada and Mexico have what everyone would call socialized medicine? AND is that the standard your now saying that primarily applies to the US? :?

BTW: Interesting 20/20 articles/links.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:02 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Just to be clear DB, doesn't Canada and Mexico have what everyone would call socialized medicine?


In most cases, it appears that way.

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
AND is that the standard your now saying applies to the US? :?


No. I'm aware there's a difference regarding each mentioned country's particular mixture of a public/socialized and/or privatized system. All I was basically saying was that the US' system is heavily socialized and that it would be better if it wasn't.

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
BTW: Interesting 20/20 articles/links.


Thankies.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
No. I'm aware there's a difference regarding each mentioned country's particular public/socialized and/or privatized system mixture. All I was basically saying was that the US' system is heavily socialized and that it would be better if it wasn't.

How so DB? What would be an ideal way to insure everyone gets access to good health care in your opinion?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:13 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
No. I'm aware there's a difference regarding each mentioned country's particular public/socialized and/or privatized system mixture. All I was basically saying was that the US' system is heavily socialized and that it would be better if it wasn't.

How so DB? What would be an ideal way to insure everyone gets access to good health care in your opinion?


Well, just like I've been saying in this thread. It would work better if the mixture was primarily (or possibly even fully) privatized. That way, you'd have more CHOICE and apparently, generally speaking, costs would be LOWER. Governments almost always get in the way and make things worse...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Everything Disco Dunce has stated is exactly the opposite of what is indeed factual. The guy just can't find it within himself to admit he's wrong, even when HE knows he's wrong.


One More Time For the world....
A monkey can read a graph...
http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg

http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg


Pay particular to the light blue lines in the graphs that represent private expenditure costs in the USA compared to the rest of the countries listed.



Really...the only thing he is accurate about are the names of the people and the programs...the facts have been changed to protect the guilty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:22 pm 
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I couldn't afford to buy health care if it was privatized. It's like the dentist here. The Medi-care program doesn't cover anything but extractions and it doesn't cover the pain meds for an extraction. The meds seem to be more expensive than the treatments. I think if you privatized all health care, you'd find that they would want more $$ rather than less. For some reason the heath care system doesn't respond to capitalism. In other words competition won't drive the price of coverage down. AND you'd have long contracts like buying a car. If you don't read all the little fine print you can bet the capitalist system will screw you in the ground or repo anything that they might have put inside you. For amputees that literally means they would want an arm and a leg back if you got your prosthetics through them. It's that cutthroat. Being sick is big biz. It's the damn drug companies in cahoots with the health care administration that is the cause of all this. I know a few docs that just want an easier system in place and not one that requires 4 administrators for each patients billing purposes. The need to feed the machine is greater than the need for anyone's health care in 9 outta 10 doctors offices. It's like 1 doc, 1 PA and 5 paper pushers to bill with. They're overhead is killin' them. I went to the doc and asked about a check-up for my prostrate. He sez don't sweat it. Most of those cyst old dudes get are benign anyway and it's a lot of work and it can be uncomfortable. I asked him if it was uncomfortable to die from cancer and he sez I'm being overly paranoid. Nice heath care we got here, eh? :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:08 am 
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Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/ba ... =PM:HEALTH

Health Care Around the World - http://www.globalissues.org/article/774 ... -the-world

According to this link -
...the USA has nearly double the bankruptcy rates as Canada.

According to this -

...of the three leading causes of personal bankruptcy in Canada...

The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.


U.S. Health Care Costs More Than ‘Socialized’ European Medicine - http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... cine/?_r=0


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:59 pm 
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We pay 19K/year to Blue Cross/Blue Shield to cover the three of us. We chose HUGE deductibles to keep it to 19K, and we get almost the minimum coverage available. We spend thousands each year in medications and procedures not covered by our insurer, and we pay huge portions of bills related to routine surgeries.

We are smaller than the average family in the U.S., with slightly above average income. Retirement comes in 5-6 years. Think we can save for that when we toss out 25-30K every year for basic coverage?

Universal healthcare is a no brainer, imo.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
We pay 19K/year to Blue Cross/Blue Shield to cover the three of us.

Quite a chunk of change and I thought mine was high for 1 person , 9200.00 but my employer pays for 1/2.

Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Universal healthcare is a no brainer, imo.

Yep , and you'll pay for that too.
You might save some but , with the new taxes , penalties and fines coming , your're still gonna pay and pay.

http://www.votersmarket.com/NewTaxes.aspx

I find it puzzling that when people insert a tag like ' governmental program ' or ' universal ' , they somehow think it's free . :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:40 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Everything Disco Dunce has stated is exactly the opposite of what is indeed factual. The guy just can't find it within himself to admit he's wrong, even when HE knows he's wrong.


One More Time For the world....
A monkey can read a graph...
http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg

http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos ... deshow.jpg


Pay particular to the light blue lines in the graphs that represent private expenditure costs in the USA compared to the rest of the countries listed.



Really...the only thing he is accurate about are the names of the people and the programs...the facts have been changed to protect the guilty.


You wouldn't know what's FACTUAL if it came up and bit you on the ass. :roll:

tweedle-dumb wrote:
Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/ba ... =PM:HEALTH

Health Care Around the World - http://www.globalissues.org/article/774 ... -the-world

According to this link -
...the USA has nearly double the bankruptcy rates as Canada.

According to this -

...of the three leading causes of personal bankruptcy in Canada...

The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.


U.S. Health Care Costs More Than ‘Socialized’ European Medicine - http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... cine/?_r=0


Thanks for reinforcing my points for me.

pedro2 wrote:
I find it puzzling that when people insert a tag like ' governmental program ' or ' universal ' , they somehow think it's free . :?


I could never figure that out either...


==================================


ONE. MORE. TIME. FOR. THE. WORLD.:

The more privatized the system is, the more competition AND choice there would be, which would result in LOWER costs. Economics 101. Governments almost always get in the way and make things worse...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:16 pm 
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So on the one hand, you agree that my links prove you're point, even though they provide statistical documentation that privatized health care costs more than public health care, but then you go on to say the exact opposite in your bullshit "one.more.time.for.the.world" statement. :roll:


Image


Give it up Disco Douche. You're wrong again. Just accept it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:14 am 
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I would tend to disagree with the idea that the US health system can be described as socialized in the way that the health system in the UK is, where e.g. even medicine is subsidised. As this site points out :

"The term Socialized Medicine is used to describe a system of publicly administered national health care. This system can range from programs in which the government runs hospitals and health organizations to programs in which there is national universal health care. Although, these programs are often associated with communist run countries, every Western Country except the United States has some form of socialized medicine. England has had a socialized program since 1948. That year, the country passed the National Health Service Act, which provided free physician and hospital services for all citizens. Recently, the program has been amended to include small fees for doctor services; however, the concept is still intact."

http://jmchar.people.wm.edu/Kin493/socmed.html

There are, of course, other views. In this article, written prior to Obamacare's introduction, the author argues that Obamacare will result in a system that is fully socialized. Even he, however, makes the point that up until the introduction of Obamacare the system was only partially socialised.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file ... /bp108.pdf.

Even most opponents of Obamacare do not seem to claim that it is socialized medicine, rather that it will lead to socialized medicine e.g. Orrin Hatch, who,according to the Huffiongton Post, argues that:
"Obamacare is actually meant to fail and that Democrats will then use that failure as an excuse to set up a single-payer health care system -- or, as Hatch put it, socialized medicine."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/2 ... 19101.html

All the same, IMO, the system even critics describe still has little to do with socialized medicine as it is seen in Germany, France or the UK. Added to this is the view, which I tend to share, that Obamacare has been so watered down that its effect on the US medical system has been, relatively speaking, negligible.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:45 am 
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Disco Douche wrote:
Quilt wrote:
DB. Is there a country that exists with the ideal healthcare model, in your opinion?


Chile is probably a good example, or ANY country that has established a healthcare system that provides adequate CHOICE. Meaning either an entirely privatized system and/or a non-lop-sided socialized/privatized system.


Violent clashes spoil Chile student protest

Protesters demanded a wider distribution of Chile’s copper wealth and reform of the education system that would put the state back in control of the mostly privatized public universities...

... it is also plagued by vast income inequality and a costly education system...

http://www.boston.com/news/education/20 ... story.html

Child poverty in Chile

...the OECD data shown here use a threshold of 50% below the median income for a given country. That is, if your family earns half the average salary you are deemed to be living in poverty and therefore are likely to suffer a disadvantage relative to your fellow citizens in terms of being unable to access many of the basic needs that you will have. Chile is no exception to this and in fact Chilean children are highly likely (22%) to be living in poverty, when compared with some of the highest rates in the world.

http://www.chileno.co.uk/chile/child-po ... cxpWYbD-Uk

Chilean poverty rate rises first time in 23 years

...The survey showed the rate of unemployment of homeless people was 51 percent, the number was registered at 31 percent among poor people and only 7.9 percent among those above the poverty line.

Gonzalez also said, in 2009, the number of poor people in urban areas increased at a faster speed than in rural areas, and the largest population of poor people was in the country's central south region, where the poverty rate ranged from 20 percent to 27 percent.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 67839.html



The fruits of privatization = excessively high poverty rates


Another Disco Douche myth debunked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Caputh wrote:
I would tend to disagree with the idea that the US health system can be described as socialized in the way that the health system in the UK is, where e.g. even medicine is subsidised. As this site points out :

"The term Socialized Medicine is used to describe a system of publicly administered national health care. This system can range from programs in which the government runs hospitals and health organizations to programs in which there is national universal health care. Although, these programs are often associated with communist run countries, every Western Country except the United States has some form of socialized medicine. England has had a socialized program since 1948. That year, the country passed the National Health Service Act, which provided free physician and hospital services for all citizens. Recently, the program has been amended to include small fees for doctor services; however, the concept is still intact."

http://jmchar.people.wm.edu/Kin493/socmed.html


That report is obviously not correct because the US healthcare system IS at least partially socialized.

tweedle-dumb wrote:
So on the one hand, you agree that my links prove you're point, even though they provide statistical documentation that privatized health care costs more than public health care, but then you go on to say the exact opposite in your bullshit "one.more.time.for.the.world" statement. :roll:

Give it up Disco Douche. You're wrong again. Just accept it.


Wtf?! Your links don't back up almost ANYTHING you're claiming.

tweedle-dumb wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Quilt wrote:
DB. Is there a country that exists with the ideal healthcare model, in your opinion?


Chile is probably a good example, or ANY country that has established a healthcare system that provides adequate CHOICE. Meaning either an entirely privatized system and/or a non-lop-sided socialized/privatized system.


Violent clashes spoil Chile student protest

Protesters demanded a wider distribution of Chile’s copper wealth and reform of the education system that would put the state back in control of the mostly privatized public universities...

... it is also plagued by vast income inequality and a costly education system...

http://www.boston.com/news/education/20 ... story.html

Child poverty in Chile

...the OECD data shown here use a threshold of 50% below the median income for a given country. That is, if your family earns half the average salary you are deemed to be living in poverty and therefore are likely to suffer a disadvantage relative to your fellow citizens in terms of being unable to access many of the basic needs that you will have. Chile is no exception to this and in fact Chilean children are highly likely (22%) to be living in poverty, when compared with some of the highest rates in the world.

http://www.chileno.co.uk/chile/child-po ... cxpWYbD-Uk

Chilean poverty rate rises first time in 23 years

...The survey showed the rate of unemployment of homeless people was 51 percent, the number was registered at 31 percent among poor people and only 7.9 percent among those above the poverty line.

Gonzalez also said, in 2009, the number of poor people in urban areas increased at a faster speed than in rural areas, and the largest population of poor people was in the country's central south region, where the poverty rate ranged from 20 percent to 27 percent.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 67839.html



The fruits of privatization = excessively high poverty rates


Another Disco Douche myth debunked.


Nope.

If you actually took the time to peruse those articles, you would notice: A) the group of education reform protesters that were stirring the shit-storm were left-wing radicals. And to put things in perspective, the rest of the peaceful education reform protesters in attendance comprise of less than 1% of the Chilean population. B) the primary reason for Chile's currently higher poverty rates (and the rates vastly differ depending on your above sources and hence are DEBATABLE) over the past several years, is because of the Housing Bubble Crisis. And C) even during economic booms, EVERY country has varying degrees of wage inequality.

Not only that but overall, post-Pinochet Chile has done VERY well, despite its relatively small population of only 17.4 million and is one of South America's most stable and prosperous nations, leading Latin American nations in human development, competitiveness, income per capita, globalization, economic freedom, and low perception of corruption. In May 2010, Chile became the first South American country to join the OECD. In 2006, Chile became the country with the highest nominal GDP per capita in Latin America. The Global Competitiveness Report for 2009-2010 ranks Chile as being the 30th most competitive country in the world and the first in Latin America, well above from Brazil (56th), Mexico (60th) and Argentina which ranks 85th. The Ease of Doing Business Index created by the World Bank lists Chile as 37th in the world that encompasses better, usually simpler, regulations for businesses and stronger protections of property rights. The Privatized National Pension System (AFP) has encouraged domestic investment and contributed to an estimated total domestic savings rate of approximately 21% of GDP.

:roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Bottom line...privatization has led Chile to have an excessively high poverty rate and one of the worst divides between the rich and the poor. Lots of countries with slave laborers and dictatorships have competitive business.

Either you don't get it, or you support slavery Paula Deen Boy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:54 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Bottom line...privatization has led Chile to have an excessively high poverty rate and one of the worst divides between the rich and the poor. Lots of countries with slave laborers and dictatorships have competitive business.

Either you don't get it, or you support slavery Paula Deen Boy.


Bottom line:

As usual, your above statements perpetually confirm you're a TOTAL fucking idiot, since whenever you try to prove your claims, you consistently FAIL to do so...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Once again...the numbers speak for themselves Disco Douche. The poverty rate in Chile is excessively high compared to ALL of the countries with the public option. I've already proven it...you just refuse to accept reality. You haven't proven dog shit and I've disproven you on every single debate on every single topic. You're just a poser who doesn't want to accept it. Now go fuck yourself Poser Boy.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:46 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Once again...the numbers speak for themselves Disco Douche. The poverty rate in Chile is excessively high compared to ALL of the countries with the public option. I've already proven it...you just refuse to accept reality. You haven't proven dog shit and I've disproven you on every single debate on every single topic. You're just a poser who doesn't want to accept it. Now go fuck yourself Poser Boy.


Once again...the articles you post contradict your own warped theories, dipshit. The poverty rate in Chile has RECENTLY increased because of the Housing Bubble Crisis (it even says so in the article YOU posted). But yet you continue to act like you've actually proven something. You make Isaac look like a fucking genius. You're simply THE most delusional poster I've EVER seen...

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