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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:26 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
Man , you are one sick puppy :cry: :|



Question to pedro2...

When is the last time Republicans have...

a) increased funding for mental health

b) supported a bill with firearm restrictions?



People with your ideology predictably say in tragic situations like this..."it's just one crazy person"..."it was only one guy"...there were only a few kids who shot up Columbine, it's an isolated incident"...it was just that one insane person who shot up that school..that church...that movie theater...that playground...that camp...that workplace...that bus stop...that grocery store...that gas station...his own wife and kids...Gabby Giffords...ect...ect...ect...ect...


Well, there's an awful lot of those "just one guy" guys adding up.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Norway was 1 single incident of 1 madman that took an enormous toll because of his meticulous planning: tragic, but rare. Don't bother about his motives or religious beliefs: he was nuts. No dad and a mother who mistreated, neglected or sexually abused him depending on her mood.

US has 7 massacres this year. That's ridiculously huge. Either one of these madmen could have upped the scale with a bit more preparation; and my recollection of 9/11 is that such an act is very manageable.

Check the list again: how many of these massacres are shootings? Almost all, save the first massacre that took blows to the head. A gun is a very efficient and simple way to kill somebody: bludgeoning and strangling and stabbing really aren't.

Remember also: these are only the massacres. Remember all the other murders? That there was a day a few weeks back when nobody was murdered in New York, how surprised the cops were? Remember that guy who shot a burglar but it turned out it was his own son?

A gun is made to kill. A gun doesn't protect you. "Oh dear, he has a gun, let's not shoot him because he might shoot back"?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Thomas Jefferson knew what he was doing when he scribed:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Under no condition should we muck with that. As others have said, we need to control wackos.
(For those here not from America, that is the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution a document we defend fiercely)

Not to change the subject but, why the hell were the Homeland Security StormTroopers there??? Those guys are what our founding fathers were arming us against. Someday we will have to defend ourselves from them.


Last edited by F.Natural on Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:15 pm 
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The Founding Fathers are the new Jesus.





SPACEBROTHER wrote:
I blame it ALL soley on Republicans.

If you're not kidding then you are completely blind. Fuck the republicans and fuck their friends the dems.

You're actually willing to use this pathetic tragedy to further your political agenda.

Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Most sad in this kind of barbaric situations is that people are not able to see through the lines. The cannot understand that those are actively brainwashed sy borgs at service of increasingly brutal, dehumanizing, orwellian police state,


It's like they're acting out some post hypnotic orders or something.


"Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human life". ~ Somebody


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:50 pm 
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BBP wrote:
Gun control is a very major issues: with the amount of guns and easy availability to handguns you can be sure every American is able to get his hands on a gun, whether borrowed from friends or stolen at a burglary.
The problem is, with the huge proliferation of arms in the US, there's no way to pull off a mass gun repeal, it would be a logistics nightmare. The only answer: if you realize that this is going entirely the wrong way with guns in the States, emigrate.

Before anyone wants to throw in the recent shooting in Alphen a/d Rijn, let me say two things about that:
1: Alphen is about the most depressing place I've ever seen, and I live in Eindhoven so I'm used to something;
2: Very sad, very shocking, very true: by law Tristan would not have been allowed to join the shooting club and get his weapons: but somebody made a cock-up because he/she accidentally deleted Tristan's PDF-file.

Oh, for those of you keeping track at home, here's 2012's Massacre Score:
23 March Ingleside Massacre, San Francisco, CA, 5 deaths.
2 April Oikos shooting, Oakland CA, 7 deaths 3 injured.
30 May, Cafe Racer Massacre, Seattle, Washington, 6 deaths
20 July Aurora shooting, Colorado, 12 deaths 59 injured.
5 August Sikh Shooting, Oak Creek, Wisconsin, 6 deaths
21 October, Spa Shooting, Brookfield, Wisconsin, 4 deaths
14 December Sandy Hook School Shooting, Newtown Connecticut, 27 deaths

The page on Belgium has 2 post-WW2 entries: Liege from last year and that horrible daycare shooting from 2009. The Netherlands has no massacre Wiki but would have two massacres after WW2, besides Alphen, that would be the attack on the Queen in Apeldoorn, that killed 7. Poland has nothing behind the second world war, and only one entry from before. Germany has 4, one a terrorist attack by Palestinians and one an Italian mobster feud. France has 3 entries after WW2. Together they killed under 60 people: less than 10% of the amount of people killed in that single horrible massacre of Oradour-sur-Glane.

There is no hell. There's only the States.

Norway was 1 single incident of 1 madman that took an enormous toll because of his meticulous planning: tragic, but rare. Don't bother about his motives or religious beliefs: he was nuts. No dad and a mother who mistreated, neglected or sexually abused him depending on her mood.

US has 7 massacres this year. That's ridiculously huge. Either one of these madmen could have upped the scale with a bit more preparation; and my recollection of 9/11 is that such an act is very manageable.

Check the list again: how many of these massacres are shootings? Almost all, save the first massacre that took blows to the head. A gun is a very efficient and simple way to kill somebody: bludgeoning and strangling and stabbing really aren't.

Remember also: these are only the massacres. Remember all the other murders? That there was a day a few weeks back when nobody was murdered in New York, how surprised the cops were? Remember that guy who shot a burglar but it turned out it was his own son?


Country Populations (as 2011):


The United States ~ 311.6 million
Belgium ~ 11 million
The Netherlands ~ 16.7 million
Germany ~ 81.7 million
Poland ~ 38.2 million
Norway ~ 4.95 million
France ~ 65.4 million


Do you see where I'm going with this? :roll:

BBP wrote:
A gun is made to kill. A gun doesn't protect you. "Oh dear, he has a gun, let's not shoot him because he might shoot back"?


Guns (and no, I don't own one or plan to) are primarily made to:


~ sell
~ protect oneself or others
~ brandish to imply power/status or fear in others
~ kill/hunt

And probably a variety of other things too. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:56 am 
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Founding fathers lived in a completely different society than we do today, and if you blindly swear by anything they said or did, you're running into problems. If everybody has the right to bear arms, Iran should be allowed to have an A-bomb, along with Zimbabwe and Luxembourg. "That's something different", you're going to say? Answer is no. It's exactly the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:02 am 
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BBP wrote:
Founding fathers lived in a completely different society than we do today, and if you blindly swear by anything they said or did, you're running into problems. If everybody has the right to bear arms, Iran should be allowed to have an A-bomb, along with Zimbabwe and Luxembourg. "That's something different", you're going to say? Answer is no. It's exactly the same.


Are you actually implying that the US ought to get rid of the 2nd Amendment? Because if you are, then that would be a GIGANTIC problem.

Secondly, that era was not a completely different society than compared to today. Though, because of the obvious technological advances, etc., things are largely different now of course. But let me remind you of something: during the era in question, there were a SHITLOAD of wars and killing. And I think The Founding Fathers were FAR more intelligent than you're giving them credit for and hence, certainly wouldn't be so clueless as to not consider that technological advances would develop in the future and had that in mind when they constructed the US Constitution and the 2nd Amendment.

Lastly, every country should have the right to protect themselves by whatever means possible. There's NOTHING wrong with that. And I greatly doubt Iran is a serious threat. I'm aware they're building nukes, but as of now they technically have ZERO. There are plenty of countries that have hundreds of nukes that are not considered serious threats and some of them also have crazy dictators, but the US seems to concentrate on Iran. And even if Iran did have nukes, they wouldn't dare use them because Israel (who have over 300) or even the US would blow them to smithereens if they tried anything...

Btw, annually in the US, there are approximately 80,000 people that die from alcohol consumption and a whopping 443,000 people that die from tobacco use. Along with killing the 2nd Amendment, should we re-establish Prohibition too?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:12 am 
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The United States ~ 311.6 million
Belgium ~ 11 million
The Netherlands ~ 16.7 million
Germany ~ 81.7 million
Poland ~ 38.2 million
Norway ~ 4.95 million
France ~ 65.4 million

I don't think you can compare population to gun crime. South Africa, with 50 million, triples the rate of gun violence of the US.

And if that weren't actually true, then shouldn't India and China have four times as much as the US? They have four times the population.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:38 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:

I don't think you can compare population to gun crime. South Africa, with 50 million, triples the rate of gun violence of the US.


Agree completely, although I'd like to know when your SA figure is from. According to this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate, the US is not doing so badly if we compare the rate of deaths due to firearms to other nations. El Salvador had just over 50 firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in 2009, the US just over 9, (homicides just under 3 per 100,000) just below SA and just above Montenegro with 8. The latter's high rate can probably be put down to cigarette and weapons smugglers. France was 3 (0.22 homicides per 100, 000), Belgium 2.43, Germany 1.10 and GB 0.25.
The US has improved too, as I understand the rate was around 14 in 1997. (http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf has an interesting article on this topic)

What my son wants to know is, is if the right to bear arms is so inviolate, why he would not be allowed to build and possess his own personal A Bomb if he lived in the USA. Just for protection, of course.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:56 am 
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Published on Saturday, December 15, 2012 by Common Dreams
A Culture That Condones The Killing Of Children And Teaches Children To Kill
by Lucinda Marshall

The Sandy Hook massacre isn’t just about the need for gun control laws, it is about a culture that condones the killing of children and teaches children that killing is okay.

It is about a country addicted to violence on television and movie screens.

It is about cuts in education spending.

It is about giving the military free access to our schools where they regale our children with romanticized delusions of military righteousness.

It is about environmental and health policies that expose our children to all manner of toxins in the air, land and water.

It is about thinking we have the right to kill children with drones or by dropping toxic munitions on their countries that cause birth defects and miscarriages.

It is about saddling our children with crippling education debt and no prospect for jobs.

It is about telling boys (and men) they have to be tough and to fight and kill for what they want or think is right.

It is about a national policy that denies children basic rights and systemically teaches them that violence is okay.

And it is about a media so insensitive that it thinks it is okay to shove a microphone in the face of young victims in the name of sensationalized 24/7 cable “news” while under-reporting the root causes of this tragedy.

Sandy Hook did not happen because of a lone, disturbed young man and it is not an isolated incident. It is an epidemic and we are all to blame. And today (and tomorrow and every day after that) is the time to confront this self-inflicted tragedy.
Lucinda Marshall

Lucinda Marshall is the Founder and Director of the Feminist Peace Network, http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org. She is the author of the FPN blog as well as Reclaiming Medusa, http://www.lucindamarshall.com.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
pedro2 wrote:
Man , you are one sick puppy :cry: :|



Question to pedro2...

When is the last time Republicans have...

a) increased funding for mental health

b) supported a bill with firearm restrictions?





According to this chart , it looks like Dem controlled states are behind your fund cutting :

The following 10 states cut the most in general funds from their mental health budgets between
2009 and 2011.

California $587.4 million
New York $132 million
Illinois $113.7 million
Arizona $108.4 million
Massachusetts $63.5 million
Ohio $57.7 million
Alaska $47.9 million
Washington, D.C. $44.2 million
South Carolina $40.5 million
Nevada $39.2 million



http://www.nami.org/ContentManagement/C ... eID=126233

Now , when was the last time a Democratic single woman chose to keep the baby daddy in the child's life ??
Are all these nut job kids the product of single mothers ? If so , why ??

Children having children :roll:

On the gun control ... how many NRA members also belong to the UAW or are Democrats ?

Your blind hatred for others that don't think as you do , is simplistic at best . :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:06 am 
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I'm thinking the United States should annex Canada.

For one thing, it would lower our murder rate overnight. And for another, it would stop me from spitting my coffee all over the place when Josh refers to the U.S. as "we..."

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:23 am 
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A list of shootings by people prescribed SSRI medications:

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

The list shows about ten percent of events occur in other places besides the USA. The USA just happens to be loaded with people on anti-depressant drugs.

More about this:

http://wemustknow.wordpress.com/2012/12 ... -drugging/

Gun control in Australia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RDWltHxRc


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:41 am 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
I'm thinking the United States should annex Canada.

For one thing, it would lower our murder rate overnight. And for another, it would stop me from spitting my coffee all over the place when Josh refers to the U.S. as "we..."


Yes, I noticed that we have been subjected to a constant stream of we wes, too :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:01 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
The list shows about ten percent of events occur in other places besides the USA. The USA just happens to be loaded with people on anti-depressant drugs.



Or has a lot of people that are very depressed?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:43 am 
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Caputh wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:

I don't think you can compare population to gun crime. South Africa, with 50 million, triples the rate of gun violence of the US.


Agree completely, although I'd like to know when your SA figure is from. According to this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate, the US is not doing so badly if we compare the rate of deaths due to firearms to other nations. El Salvador had just over 50 firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in 2009, the US just over 9, (homicides just under 3 per 100,000) just below SA and just above Montenegro with 8. The latter's high rate can probably be put down to cigarette and weapons smugglers. France was 3 (0.22 homicides per 100, 000), Belgium 2.43, Germany 1.10 and GB 0.25.
The US has improved too, as I understand the rate was around 14 in 1997. (http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf has an interesting article on this topic)

What my son wants to know is, is if the right to bear arms is so inviolate, why he would not be allowed to build and possess his own personal A Bomb if he lived in the USA. Just for protection, of course.


I got it from here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearm

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:51 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:


Ah, that's interesting. As far as I can make out, the figures are from 2002.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:34 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Agree completely, although I'd like to know when your SA figure is from. According to this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate, the US is not doing so badly if we compare the rate of deaths due to firearms to other nations. El Salvador had just over 50 firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in 2009, the US just over 9, (homicides just under 3 per 100,000) just below SA and just above Montenegro with 8. The latter's high rate can probably be put down to cigarette and weapons smugglers. [...].


Caputh: the US is a civilised country, with not too high corruption and it's not run by the mafia in the way Bulgaria is. El Salvador and Mexico and Columbia may have high crime tolls (a lot of it is caused by drug criminality to supply to the US cocaine market, go figure) but it's like saying "I don't sing that bad, I can sing better than Rebecca Black."

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:02 pm 
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and now for something completely different.....

While the prols scavenge for food in the suburbs the President and his Queen, errrr I mean the first lady, are off on a vacation to Hawaii.
Apparently indefferent to the rapidly approaching Fiscal Cliff disaster coming to a head.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:21 pm 
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BBP wrote:
the US is a civilised country, with not too high corruption and it's not run by the mafia


Yeah, and Disney World is a non profit charity.


Guns don't kill people, bullets do.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:50 pm 
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BBP wrote:
Caputh wrote:
Agree completely, although I'd like to know when your SA figure is from. According to this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate, the US is not doing so badly if we compare the rate of deaths due to firearms to other nations. El Salvador had just over 50 firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in 2009, the US just over 9, (homicides just under 3 per 100,000) just below SA and just above Montenegro with 8. The latter's high rate can probably be put down to cigarette and weapons smugglers. [...].


Caputh: the US is a civilised country, with not too high corruption and it's not run by the mafia in the way Bulgaria is. El Salvador and Mexico and Columbia may have high crime tolls (a lot of it is caused by drug criminality to supply to the US cocaine market, go figure) but it's like saying "I don't sing that bad, I can sing better than Rebecca Black."


I know, Bonny - I was trying (and obviously failing miserably) to be a bit ironic... :oops:

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Last edited by Caputh on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Pope Jim quoting Lucinda Marshall wrote:
Sandy Hook did not happen because of a lone, disturbed young man and it is not an isolated incident. It is an epidemic and we are all to blame.


She's so right.

She's so right she will be ignored and written off as a clueless feminist by many.

Mr America walk on by........


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:04 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
I don't think you can compare population to gun crime. South Africa, with 50 million, triples the rate of gun violence of the US.

And if that weren't actually true, then shouldn't India and China have four times as much as the US? They have four times the population.


Come on. It's not going to add up exactly. There's going to be exceptions. But you get my general point.

With the case of India, 1/3 of the world's poverty comes from this country. That may have something to do with it.

And here's China's stats (which appears to be HIGHER than the US'):

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/china

Number of Homicides (any method)
ChartIn China, annual homicides by any means total

2008: 14,8117
2007: 16,119
2006: 17,973
2005: 20,770
2004: 24,711
2003: 24,393
2002: 26,276

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:59 pm 
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A new low, even for the scum from Westboro "Baptist Church":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/westboro-baptist-church-picket-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2312186.html

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
I don't think you can compare population to gun crime. South Africa, with 50 million, triples the rate of gun violence of the US.

And if that weren't actually true, then shouldn't India and China have four times as much as the US? They have four times the population.


Come on. It's not going to add up exactly. There's going to be exceptions. But you get my general point.

With the case of India, 1/3 of the world's poverty comes from this country. That may have something to do with it.

And here's China's stats (which appears to be HIGHER than the US'):

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/china

Number of Homicides (any method)


ChartIn China, annual homicides by any means total

2008: 14,8117
2007: 16,119
2006: 17,973
2005: 20,770
2004: 24,711
2003: 24,393
2002: 26,276


Actually DB, I might be wrong, but I think those Chinese statistics refer, as you yourself point out, to homicide by any method. Which your (very interesting) site defines as "The reported, or estimated annual total of completed, intentional homicides committed by any means, in years descending." If you look at the US statistics on the same site you can see that they have the US statistics for homicides with firearms as an extra table. They do not have a similar table for China, or at least I couldn't find it. This would indicate to me that they don't have statistics on homicides caused by firearms in China.

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