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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:49 am 
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So, since you find fault with my perspective, please tell me why one of the following is not like the other:

The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
...It is following your own logic: If the law will be broken by criminals then the law shouldn't exist. ...


pedro2 wrote:
...should we make things illegal because a criminal would break the law while other people obey the law ?...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:24 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
So, since you find fault with my perspective, please tell me why one of the following is not like the other:

The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
...It is following your own logic: If the law will be broken by criminals then the law shouldn't exist. ...


pedro2 wrote:
...should we make things illegal because a criminal would break the law while other people obey the law ?...


Well , for one thing , you took my words out of context >>>

BUT>>> should we make things illegal because a criminal would break the law while other people obey the law ? Who is really getting punished in that scenario ? The criminal or law abiding person ? I don't believe too many criminals worry about what is legal or illegal.

Now , let me ask my question in a different way. Maybe you'll get it now.

Should we outlaw automobiles because drunk young punks might drive unsafely ?

Now you tell me. How would you come to a conclusion that I believe there should be no laws based on that question ??

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Yeesh. No we shouldn't outlaw automobiles because someone drives unsafely. There, you see I understand your question. How does that help anything? It doesn't tell me that you understand what I'm talking about.
As for the who is getting punished thing. That is irrelevent to me since I want more weapons to be legal than less. The punishment perspective is yours so the burdon of it making sense is on you. I wish you liked logic more, especially since we agree more than disagree on this topic, but I guess you are a hammer looking for a nail.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Regading guns in the U S of A...We have laws. The laws are enforced. More people have guns than ever, and more and bigger gun crimes are commited now than ever.


So whats the solution? I have a number of questions...

1. raise taxes on 100% of the people to fund more law enforcement so 47% can have guns? -----> http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self- ... -1993.aspx

2. levy taxes and/or create insurance premiums for gun owners, suppliers and companies who manufacter them to cover all costs relating to law enforcement and medical bills directly related to guns? -----> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/2 ... 35807.html
-----> http://www.inquisitr.com/458241/gun-tax ... op-owners/
-----> http://www.opposingviews.com/i/nra-figh ... gun-owners

3. add more gun regulations? ----> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... s/1894355/

4. pass gun laws similar to countries with the lowest gun related crimes? -----> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms

5. does the glorifying of guns in movies, tv, video games and music cause gun crimes, and who stands to benefit he most from media gun glorification if it does? -----> http://gamepolitics.com/2007/11/08/vide ... l-shooting
-----> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12194613

I have many many more questions about guns. Obviously, having more guns and the current laws and regulations are inadeguate...so how do we end or curb most gun violence?



I'm not making any statements in this post in favor of one side or the other. Also, I think most people agree that something has to be done.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:19 pm 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:


I have many many more questions about guns. Obviously, having more guns and the current laws and regulations are inadeguate...so how do we end or curb most gun violence?



I'm not making any statements in this post in favor of one side or the other. Also, I think most people agree that something has to be done.


How about we start by punishing those who break the law with a more severe punishment than a slap on the wrist for starters.

Then we can start teaching , in elementary school , what society perceives as acceptable and non - acceptable behavior.

After that we can start schooling our young on a little thing called respect for others.

It's really not the guns that are the problem , isn't it more a problem of behavior ?


edited to fix grammatical errors

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:25 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
If the intent of the weapon user is to do bodily harm to another , it really doesn't matter if it's a gun , a butter knife or two hands . Does it ?


And I thought it was pretty obvious but, gosh, I guess I have to explain it ! :roll:
Show me a guy with a knife who can kill 20 peoples in 5 minutes !
He'll be down in a matter of seconds.

What you don't seem to get is that
"GUNS MAKE IT PERFECTLY SAFE TO DO MASS MURDERS"
"YOU DON'T HAVE TO REACH THE VICTIM, BULLETS WILL DO THE WORK FOR YOU"
Before the killer is shot, a lot of peoples will be killed.

So... THERE IS a difference between guns and your usual butter knife and your hands.
Here I am trying to make sense with a gun-loving Americans... :P

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:30 pm 
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In Chicago there were 18 people killed within the 1st 10 days of this new year. None was a multiple murder.

Once again , it's not the weapon used , it's the behavior of the person using the weapon.

Jim Jones WAS a mass murderer and all he used was Kool-Aid .

If you get rid of all guns off the planet , do you really think murder would end ??

Do you think that murder never happened before the first gun was invented ??

Just trying to make sense with gun hating non Americans :P

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:43 pm 
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There is no law that will make guns magically disappear. A law stops no one from doing anything, it only makes something illegal.

When it comes to these terrible mass murders, what should be investigated is the percentage of perpetrators who are on prescribed SSRI medications for mental illness. It is a very high percentage. These are the drugs that always carry the warning "suicidal thoughts may occur". Almost all of the recent shootings were carried out by people prescribed these drugs.

Crazy people and the medications they take are the problem. A gun is just a device that shoots a bullet. More murders are committed with other weapons than guns, but we can't ban waffle irons, either.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:52 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
...A law stops no one from doing anything, it only makes something illegal.
...

It must be me. I honestly think you are smarter than this rope. I must need a break from this shit, cuz things like the above are making my brain explode.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:54 pm 
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All I can tell ya is that I didn't used to feel that way.

I'm not a gun person at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I should have said that a law only stops most people from doing illegal things.

It's a do-over, yeah...my head is elsewhere at the moment.

Hell is forever, or feels like it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:12 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
SPACEBROTHER wrote:


I have many many more questions about guns. Obviously, having more guns and the current laws and regulations are inadeguate...so how do we end or curb most gun violence?



I'm not making any statements in this post in favor of one side or the other. Also, I think most people agree that something has to be done.


How about we start by punishing those who break the law with a more severe punishment than a slap on the wrist for starters.

Then we can start teaching , in elementary school , what society perceives as acceptable and non - acceptable behavior.

After that we can start schooling our young on a little thing called respect for others.

It's really not the guns that are the problem , isn't it more a problem of behavior ?


edited to fix grammatical errors



All but 17 states have the death penalty, the most severe punishment possible. Many of the states with the death penalty rank high for gun related crime rates. The ultimate punishment doesn't appear to be an adequate deterrant.

I agree that kids need to learn right from wrong, at home and school. Many, if not most schools already teach the difference between acceptable and non-acceptable behavior. Thats doesn't deter what happens outside of homes and schools though.



I agree that behavior is a driving factor to gun violence, though I can't say with an absolute that guns are or aren't a/the problem. I need more information...


more questions...

1. If it becomes mandatory for schools to put more emphasis on behavioral/psychological sciences, it seems that that will drive up the costs of running schools. Who should be responsible to pay for this? Everybody or gun owners/manufacterers/sellers?

2. Schools are one way to have the government regulate e teaching of behavioral issues, but what about the home? Should the parents/legal guardians of kids who commit gun related crimes be held accountable?

3. Should there be penalties for gun owners who's guns are used in a crime if they weren't he one who commited it, whether it's because of negligence to properly secure their arms, or if they allow an unstable person have access to them?

4. Seeing as how capitol punishment doesn't seem to be an adequate deterrant, whats the next step?

5. Regarding behavioral/psychological/mental illness...if more emphasis needs to be put on these three things, who should pay for it? A person who is mentally ill isn't that way by choice, so would it be discriminatory to make them d/or their families cover the costs?





My own experiences with guns...

I've had at least three occasions in my life where I had loaded guns pointed directly at me, and I'm thankful and grateful to still be alive....

The first incident was coming out of a concert into a parking lot where 4 people were beating the shit out of a guy and assaulting his girlfriend. I happened to be the first people out of he door and the first eyewitness. As dozens of other people started to file out of the venue, I happened to be standing in the closest proximaty of he crime as in was occuring. Two of the four individuals pulled out a sawed-off shotgun a handgun. The guy with the shotgun appraoched me within about 4 feet and pointed it at my face. A security guard came out seconds later, but ran back into the venue (worthless coward). If I had a concealed weapon on me at that instant, there would have been no way I could have pulled it out without being shot in the face first. Had I been able to pull a concealed handgun out as the assailants were departing, dozens of people would likey have been shot. The assailants got away before the cops arrived. Incidently, The concert happened to be a free Frank Marino and Mahogany Rush show. Great concert, but I almost got murdered by a gun wacko.

It was the couples luckiest and unluckiest day of their lives. The guy got the shit kicked out of him, and his girlfriend/wife could have been raped, but they survived.


The second incident whee I had a firearm pointed directly at me was while playing a gig at a bar. Sevaral assailants, who I'll refer to as gang members entered the bar during one of our sets in abold attempt to commit a mass robbery. The bar owner, who was a former cop, thinking fast, jumped on the stage with us with his .38 in hand. Had a gun fight erupted between the bar owner/former cop and the several gang members, the rain of bullits would have been sprayed directly towards me and my bandmates.

The third incident, and possibly the scariest and closest I came to becoming a gun crime statistic, happened when a former aquantance, who happened to be a drug addict, for no reason what-so-ever, thought it was funny to put a shell in his sawed-off shotgun and just point it at my head at point blank range. Thank God he didn't pull the trigger. Not long after that, he was arrested for attempted murder and went to prison in a Southwestern state that I won't name.


In all three of these instances, even if I had a concealed and loaded weapon on me, I would have died had I reached for it.


...I do have an opinion about guns. I really don't think it's necessary for me to expand on that opinion based my own personal experiences. At the same time, I have many friends/aquantances who are hunters/gun collectors who are responsible, and in some ways, puts me on the fence with firearms. At the same time, if they were outright banned, I won't miss them.


Last edited by SPACEBROTHER on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Also I am not so sure all these shooters were diagnosed as crazy and on prescribed drugs, a couple yes, but not the others...the old catch all was Goth all dressed in black geeks who were bullied... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:51 pm 
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I remember when they were trying to blame everybody from Marilyn Manson to Ozzy Osbourne for Columbine.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:40 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
In Chicago there were 18 people killed within the 1st 10 days of this new year. None was a multiple murder.
Once again , it's not the weapon used , it's the behavior of the person using the weapon.
Jim Jones WAS a mass murderer and all he used was Kool-Aid .
If you get rid of all guns off the planet , do you really think murder would end ??
Do you think that murder never happened before the first gun was invented ??
Just trying to make sense with gun hating non Americans :P


Of course, murders won't stop, Do you think I'm such a naive guy ? Behavior is part of the problem.
But, open you ears and listen closely :
"BANNING GUNS WOULD HELP IN DRAMATICALLY DIMINISHING MASS MURDERS".
The Jones case happens so rarely, and with people WILLING to die (for a large portion of them).
It ain't no use to try to make sense with a "Ooh, love my guns" Americans.

Imagine yourself in a shopping mall, face to face with a guy holding a AK47 in your direction.
Will you proudly then talk about the second amendment ?
You're talking now with the bravery of being out of range.
Those kids in Newtown never had that luxury. :x

Oh, just try and imagine those 18 or so killers in Chicago with some automatic guns in their hands. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:50 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
Jim Jones WAS a mass murderer and all he used was Kool-Aid .

Wrong.

The mass suicide at Jonestown happened after members of Jim Jones' security staff shot and killed Congressman Leo Ryan and four members of an NBC News crew. They also shot and injured nine others.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:04 pm 
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Mij wrote:
Guns to protect against dictatorship ? What a crazy statement.
Better risk all these kids and innocent bystanders shooting than a dictatorship.
If it is such a brillant idea, why other countries don't follow ?
And how many dictatorship can you count in those countries ?

I think people in US are fed very young with paranoid ideas. That's not how a society should operate.
We should have a minimum faith in each others. Like you expect people to stop at red light when it's your turn to go.
You expect to be safe when in a public place, like a school, a shopping mall, a cinema, etc...

Suppose there is one really bad guy out of every 100. I prefer that guy to be unarmed.
And make it impossible or awfully complicated for him to get any kind of gun. In USA, they prefer to arm the 99 others.
But who is to say that a momentary lapse of reason is not to happen to any of those 100 guys ?
And don't compare a knife to an automatic gun. Do I really have to tell you why ?

Armed because of fear of dictatorship ? A lousy excuse. I don't expect Americans to agree of course.
Let the mass killings continue and NRA have its ways (dictatorship you said ?).
Anyway when Bush stole the election as some said, won't you agree it's like a form of dictatorship.
There was no armed riots. Hey, is it not the reason why you can get guns ?
Oh yeah, 50% of Americans would have battled against the other 50%.
Maybe the real fear is the other guy, much more than a dictatorship. Should we give it a thought ?

See ? Having guns will get you nowhere. See ? I guess not ! :P

(anyway, why bother brother ? It's only crazy Americans shooting innocent Americans and they like it that way. Only in America)


duchamp wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I don't like guns myself, nor do I own one. But the 2nd Amendment is extremely important and was established for a reason. You should have the right to protect yourself. Without it, Government's got you by the balls.

[Chicago] has THE strictest guns laws in the US...but they also have THE highest murder rate in the US (over 500 murders last year) by a MILE.


It's sad you missed the part where Puerto Rico is part of the US, as most people do. In 2011, Puerto Rico broke its own record by logging 1,135 homicides — 30 killings per 100,000 residents.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/12/11/3 ... rylink=cpy

However, to claim that owning guns does anything to protect our freedom from the government is naive at best. You really think you have any hope fighting back against the government with their tanks, jets, and bombs? Talk about David and Goliath. If the government wanted to try and take your guns, or anything else, your guns would not stop them. I am NOT anti-gun ownership, but arguing that people can fight off the government with guns is just silly. Or perhaps you actually have faith in your government officials to NOT use their superior firepower, because it just wouldn't be fair?


Where did I say that owning firearms was strictly out of fear of protecting yourself from Government?!

I was using the Government as a scenario of how helpless society would be without the 2nd Amendment in place. Utilizing firearms as protection against dictatorship, in this case, is only ONE example. Other examples include, criminals, wild animals, the mentally-ill, etc. And you still would be able to protect yourself against Government/authority forces if anarchy developed, regardless of the results.

And that's the point here: that your rights are protected.

But if you don't like rights or having them protected, then go move to a Socialist/Communist country and see how you'd fit in...

Mij wrote:
But, open you ears and listen closely :
"BANNING GUNS WOULD HELP IN DRAMATICALLY DIMINISHING MASS MURDERS".


I guess you're not taking my word for it. Well, then, let's see what Biden has to say about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTyoppK_aDM

:roll:

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Last edited by Disco Boy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:08 pm 
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After they handed over their free will to Jones through months & years of brainwashing, he had only to order them to poison themselves (as well as their children) and they followed through.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:04 am 
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...kind of like Ron Paul supporters. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:36 am 
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Because of the huge amount of Jonestown corpses, there wasn't enough time or resources to check whether the kool-aid was administered by force, at gunpoint or willingly. There are definitely people who were given a lethal injection. It may also be assumed that the kids were killed first to break their parents' will power. Read more into the case before you use it as an example, please.

Something else that's sick:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/05/will-a-child-rapist-walk-free-in-saudi-arabia.html

What the article doesn't mention is that Lama was brutally tortured: her finger nails were torn out and her father had attempted to burn shut some of her wounds.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:21 am 
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Joe Biden ia politician. Like all politicians, he'll say one thing one day and the contrary the other day. He's not THE champion in lying. Remember Bush ? The all-time low-down dirty rat.

And, like it or not, less guns = less mass killings. A simple math. Christ, why is so hard to get for some peoples ?
Like less cold virus = less cold, less junk food = less cholesterol, less money = less buying power, etc....
A simple matter of substraction.

You love your guns too much, it's your new mommy. You used it to protect you from fear of dictatorship, and all your other fears.
And you need it to protect you from fellows who have guns. I'm sure you don't get the irony.
As a society, you painted yourself in a corner. There are many countries in this world that live without that gun craziness.
We don't hear them often in the news for mass shooting, not as often as USA for sure.
You face your fears with a gun.

Tell me, when you go to crowded places, do you bring it with you ? Do you have your AK47 by your side, or a small hand gun in your pocket ? Do you look into everybody's eyes to see if you can find something you don't trust ? Are you nervous ? Do you sweat ? Do you analyse peoples reactions as they pass by ? Are you always ready to shoot when hearing unsuspected loud noises ? Do you think you'll have time to react when pointed by a gun ? Are you tempted to leave the children in the car just in case ? Are you happy to live in such a paranoid state of mind ? Wouldn't you prefer to go to crowded places without all that crap ?

Only in America ! :smoke:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:49 am 
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BBP wrote:
Because of the huge amount of Jonestown corpses, there wasn't enough time or resources to check whether the kool-aid was administered by force, at gunpoint or willingly. There are definitely people who were given a lethal injection. It may also be assumed that the kids were killed first to break their parents' will power. Read more into the case before you use it as an example, please.

Something else that's sick:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/05/will-a-child-rapist-walk-free-in-saudi-arabia.html

What the article doesn't mention is that Lama was brutally tortured: her finger nails were torn out and her father had attempted to burn shut some of her wounds.

There is video of the kool aid scene as well as audio recording, very bad situation, agreed should not be used as sb did.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:04 am 
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It would seem that Americans aren't the only gun nuts :|

https://www.whatsnextvenezuela.com/tag/ak-47/


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... soars.html

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:53 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
BBP wrote:
Because of the huge amount of Jonestown corpses, there wasn't enough time or resources to check whether the kool-aid was administered by force, at gunpoint or willingly. There are definitely people who were given a lethal injection. It may also be assumed that the kids were killed first to break their parents' will power. Read more into the case before you use it as an example, please.

Something else that's sick:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/05/will-a-child-rapist-walk-free-in-saudi-arabia.html

What the article doesn't mention is that Lama was brutally tortured: her finger nails were torn out and her father had attempted to burn shut some of her wounds.

There is video of the kool aid scene as well as audio recording, very bad situation, agreed should not be used as sb did.

For everybody here who's used the "kool-ade" analogy regarding political debates, probably including yourself, I could easily spend a day to dredge up plenty of examples to re-post.


Regarding the Saudi story...it's very sad and unsettling that there is an inherent blatant disregard towards women and children in Neo-Conservative Theocratic governments. When polititians in my own country, who are Conservative, start eulogising about things like "legitimate rape" and what-not, at given time, the USA is only an election or two away from becoming that kind of government. Conservative governments have a nasty habit of being anti-women. They hate their women and children, but they love their guns.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:07 am 
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Good thing we have the kinder gentler Obama that will drone kill anyone he wants, love that liberal mentality. After all we wouldn't want to interrogate a suspect that would be inhumane, lets just kill em !

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