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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:39 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
The reason why certain people aren't willing to engage in healthy debate with me has nothing to do with what you think is my apparent lack of self-awareness. It primarily has to do with them not being able to construct a convincing argument to the contrary. And that's probably because they know I'm correct.



HEALTHY!? I guess that means a competitive debate? A nasty one at that.

This is why you always lose. You are lousy at it because you lack the gift of persuasion, making a compelling argument. I couldn't see you winning a professional debate to save your life. For instance, quote:

"And that's probably because they know I'm correct." -- Josh

Good Grief! You just lost the world.

None are so blind as those...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:02 am 
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Ok, lets take Janis Ian.
She's got a lot of shoulder etc showing on the cover of Stars. The illusion may be thats she's a bit naked.
IMO she doesn't look like a 'hussy' in that pic. Maybe she does to some.
If an imaginary line could be moved up or down (lower), at what point would 'non-hussy' become 'hussy'? Below the chin? when nipples appear? lower??
(maybe interchange 'hussy' for being sexually exploited / exploiting oneself sexually)
Just wonderin...
TT

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:23 am 
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At present therefore:
Thirteen governments in the EU are led by Conservative, centre right leaders
Twelve by Socialists/Social Democrats
Two by Economic Liberals leaders
One by an Extreme Right Wing leader

Conservative Centre Right Parties are represented in 16 cabinets.
Socialist/Social Democratic Parties are represented in 16 cabinets.[/quote]

Disco Boy wrote:
Uh, since centre-right does NOT mean fully conservative, as I've already explained, your above score card should NOT read 16 /16. It would be more along the lines of 31 (centre-right = socialist or liberal / conservative) / 1 (far right conservative).

Thanks for owning yourself...


Ah, I see: So you have to have a nationalist, racist party in order to qualify as a conservative, like in Hungary. Otherwise you are a socialist conservative, liberal. Well, it's nice to know where you stand.
I think you'd better get onto both the parties concerned and Wikipedia, as both describe an awful lot of these parties as conservative/centre right/christian democrat/economic liberal
For instance,
Cyprus: Democratic Rally "is a conservative and Christian-democratic political party"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Rally
Czech Republic: ODS "The ODS is liberal conservative,supports economic liberalism and is notably Eurosceptic. It is modelled on the British Conservative Party"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Demo ... h_Republic)
Finland: NCP The National Coalition Party (Finnish: Kansallinen Kokoomus r.p., Kok.; Swedish: Samlingspartiet r.p., Saml.) is a liberal conservative political party in Finland founded in 1918."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coalition_Party
Greece: New Democracy. Hey! Wikipedia only describes them as centre-right. A pity Encyclopedia Britannica describes them as "New Democracy (ND), Greek Nea Dimokratia, conservative political party in Greece."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... mocracy-ND

And even the Conservative Party in the UK are partly socialist. Wow! If only I had known!


But I guess all these articles were written by manipulative shitheads.

Basically, Christian Democracy, Centre Right and (Economic) Liberal have fuck all to do with Socialism.
The term "Centre" can be traced back to the German centre party, a conservative party and an earlier form of the Christian Democrats. They approved of e.g. the Weimar Republic originally, but wanted the monarchy back. When Hitler came to power, they approved of the (illegal) arrest of the Communists and Social Democrats and agreed to the enabling act, which brought about the end of democracy in Germany. The only people who voted it against it btw. were the remaining Social Democrats. The Communists couldn't vote as they'd all been arrested.
Therefore it appears that only in Disco Boy world does the word "Centre" on its own and in particular coupled with "right" indicate in any way shape or form an equivalency with the word "Socialist". Your "convincing arguments" in this case as in nearly all other cases reduce themselves once again to empty, irrational claims made with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

Edited to make it a little bit more clear. :oops:
No, it didn't work... and I meant clearer.

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Last edited by Caputh on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:39 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Your "convincing arguments" in this case as in nearly all other cases reduce themselves once again to empty, irrational claims made with no supporting evidence whatsoever.


Nailed it there, Caputh.

Stay tuned folks...much more irrationality about to be displayed by Disco Boofhead.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:24 am 
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OK on the sex selling music, bpp I think you make a great point, BUT..... if an artist shows cleavage or wears a short skirt I think it would be an over reach to say that is an example of selling their music with sex. And i site Carol king Diana Krall, M Macpartland, these musicians are NOT known for using sex to sell their music, that is a fact.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:06 am 
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DEBATE GRADING RUBRIC
http://www.csun.edu/~ds56723/phil338/hout338rubric.htm

revised. I docked or added points to overcome any bias...

CAPUTH: 3 / 4 / 4 /4

JOSH: 2 / 1 / 2 / 1

PLEASE join me in rating our debating team. honestly.


Last edited by brainpang on Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:28 am 
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Caputh 3 / 4 / 4 / 3

DB 2 / 1 / 2 / 4

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:19 am 
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I use "hussie" for the prostitute dress code that is unfortunately in fashion right now (boots and short skirt = eye leads to whatever is beneath the skirt). Bare legs and a cleavage that shows the split between the boobs helps, so does bare back and bare bellybutton.
Sad but true:
I had the pleasure of seeing the beloved Dutch violinist Janine Jansen before she was famous, live with the Dutch Student Orchestra in 1999. She performed a setting of Chausson's Poème for orchestra. I vividly remember how wowed the audience was by her fiery playing, she was the talk of the foyer during the intermission.
She didn't break through until later she released a Vivaldi album with mildly erotic poses.

Live with it: sexualisation of products is everywhere, meat, furniture, music, phones... all being sold with a pretty lady with enticing clothing advertising it. I'm probably better at spotting it than you are because I'm so frigid women don't do a thing for me. To me it's either silly or embarrassing. Or both.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:07 am 
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I certainly agree with most of that, and it pertains to men also. I particularly dislike the 6 inch spike heels women wear to day, the shoes are just silly. My only disagree is with the musicians i have mentioned and more ,i just don't care to list them all, not that important to me. Take Carol King, she was a success before she released an lp of her own, she wrote many songs made hits by others. Really Carol king a sex symbol? She would laugh her ass off, especially in her 70's.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:14 am 
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She's one of the lucky few then, and remember those were the 70s: already 40 years ago. Not the present-day market where talented musicians like Caro Emerald are booted because of their figure (and then they come back and kick butt).
'Course it's not a new phenomenon: Frankie Avalon was one of those people who was just a successful singer for his looks. And play Punky's Whips again. But now it's just so extreme there's no opening for non-sexy singers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:24 am 
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Yea the need for quick popularity is driven by commercial sex overtones, especially today. Also i believe Carol King wrote her first hit in 1960, it is ,Will you love me tomorrow. Guess I'm an old fart, but some of the great musical artists started back when I was young and are still doing great.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:31 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Yea the need for quick popularity is driven by commercial sex overtones, especially today. Also i believe Carol King wrote her first hit in 1960, it is ,Will you love me tomorrow. Guess I'm an old fart, but some of the great musical artists started back when I was young and are still doing great.

I thought the name of that CK song is, Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow? Didn't CK have her 1st hit with The ABC's of Love, sung by an acapella group who's name escapes me right now.
If you have talent, it'll sell. Look at Susan Boyle, Frank Zappa, Bob Dylan, KD Lang and even Lady Gaga, and the ugly hits just keep on coming. If any of the above have used sex to sell their records, Frank would be the biggest culprit. I think, if FZ could have gotten away with it, he'd of said his music would make your penis larger too! Which it does BTW, but the record ends and then it retreats back to it's usually flaccid position. :cry:
Does sex belong in music? You betcha! :wink: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:21 pm 
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"Diana Krall...NOT known for using sex to sell their music..."

She' pretty hot, though...and Elvis Costello is a lucky old bastard.


https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... 85NkxaxGX0


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Diana Krall may or may not be using sex to sell her music, I have no idea. But, any music of her's that I've heard is awful, can't stand it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:08 pm 
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I would find it hard to claim that this is not using sex to sell.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:31 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
The reason why certain people aren't willing to engage in healthy debate with me has nothing to do with what you think is my apparent lack of self-awareness. It primarily has to do with them not being able to construct a convincing argument to the contrary. And that's probably because they know I'm correct.



HEALTHY!? I guess that means a competitive debate? A nasty one at that.

This is why you always lose. You are lousy at it because you lack the gift of persuasion, making a compelling argument. I couldn't see you winning a professional debate to save your life. For instance, quote:

"And that's probably because they know I'm correct." -- Josh

Good Grief! You just lost the world.

None are so blind as those...


Uncle Bernie wrote:
The Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
Your "convincing arguments" in this case as in nearly all other cases reduce themselves once again to empty, irrational claims made with no supporting evidence whatsoever.


Nailed it there, Caputh.

Stay tuned folks...much more irrationality about to be displayed by Disco Boofhead.


Yet even MORE ad hominems and while simultaneously not providing ANYTHING of substance to contradict my points.

The Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
Ah, I see: So you have to have a nationalist, racist party in order to qualify as a conservative, like in Hungary. Otherwise you are a socialist conservative, liberal. Well, it's nice to know where you stand.

I think you'd better get onto both the parties concerned and Wikipedia, as both describe an awful lot of these parties as conservative/centre right/christian democrat/economic liberal
For instance,
Cyprus: Democratic Rally "is a conservative and Christian-democratic political party"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Rally
Czech Republic: ODS "The ODS is liberal conservative,supports economic liberalism and is notably Eurosceptic. It is modelled on the British Conservative Party"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Demo ... h_Republic)
Finland: NCP The National Coalition Party (Finnish: Kansallinen Kokoomus r.p., Kok.; Swedish: Samlingspartiet r.p., Saml.) is a liberal conservative political party in Finland founded in 1918."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coalition_Party
Greece: New Democracy. Hey! Wikipedia only describes them as centre-right. A pity Encyclopedia Britannica describes them as "New Democracy (ND), Greek Nea Dimokratia, conservative political party in Greece."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... mocracy-ND

And even the Conservative Party in the UK are partly socialist. Wow! If only I had known!

But I guess all these articles were written by manipulative shitheads.

Basically, Christian Democracy, Centre Right and (Economic) Liberal have fuck all to do with Socialism.
The term "Centre" can be traced back to the German centre party, a conservative party and an earlier form of the Christian Democrats. They approved of e.g. the Weimar Republic originally, but wanted the monarchy back. When Hitler came to power, they approved of the (illegal) arrest of the Communists and Social Democrats and agreed to the enabling act, which brought about the end of democracy in Germany. The only people who voted it against it btw. were the remaining Social Democrats. The Communists couldn't vote as they'd all been arrested.
Therefore it appears that only in Disco Boy world does the word "Centre" on its own and in particular coupled with "right" indicate in any way shape or form an equivalency with the word "Socialist". Your "convincing arguments" in this case as in nearly all other cases reduce themselves once again to empty, irrational claims made with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

Edited to make it a little bit more clear. :oops:
No, it didn't work... and I meant clearer.


The FACT is, there are conservative parties in existence that are not centre-right or liberal/conservative. Most are, but some aren't. The Conservative Party in Canada or the bulk of the Republican Party in the US, are some examples.

While liberalism is certainly not the same thing as socialism, they sure as hell are RELATED - which is part of my point. And for you to even deny that is fucking hilarious. Your initial point, on the other hand, strictly stated that conservative parties ran the 3 or 4 countries I listed. But you mentioned NOTHING about "centre" in the title. This makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, thanks for owning yourself AGAIN. Because there are SHITLOADS of centre-right parties in existence that are a mix-mash of socialist/liberal/conservative beliefs/policies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... by_country


Australia

Democratic Labor Party
Family First Party
Katter's Australian Party
Liberal Party of Australia (Largest party)
National Party of Australia

Austria

Austrian People's Party

Bangladesh

Bangladesh Nationalist Party

Belgium

New-Flemish Alliance
Flemish Interest

Bolivia

Nationalist Democratic Action

Botswana

Botswana Democratic Party

Canada

Conservative Party of Canada
Wildrose Party

Chile

National Renewal
Independent Democratic Union

Colombia

Colombian Conservative Party

Costa Rica

Social Christian Unity Party

Cyprus

Democratic Rally

Denmark

Conservative People's Party
Danish People's Party

Ecuador

Social Christian Party

Estonia

Pro Patria and Res Publica Union

European Union

European People's Party

Finland

National Coalition Party

France

Union for a Popular Movement
Movement for France

Germany

Christian Democratic Union of Germany
Christian Social Union of Bavaria

Ghana

New Patriotic Party

Greece

New Democracy

Grenada

New National Party

Guatemala

National Advancement Party

Honduras

National Party of Honduras

Hong Kong

Pro-Beijing camp (pan-Establishment Camp)
Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong
Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong
Liberal Party
New People's Party

Iceland

Independence Party

India

Bharatiya Janata Party
Shiv Sena

Indonesia

National Awakening Party

Ireland

Fine Gael
Muintir na h-Eireann

Iran

Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran
Combatant Clergy Association
Islamic Coalition Party
Ansar-e Hezbollah
Modern Thinkers Party of Islamic Iran
Moderation and Development Party
Coalition of Iran's Independent Volunteers
Society of Devotees of the Islamic Revolution (Isargaran)

Israel

Likud
Yisrael Beiteinu
The Jewish Home

Italy

People of Freedom

Japan

Liberal Democratic Party

Jersey

Centre Party

Lesotho

Basotho National Party

Macedonia

VMRO-DPMNE

Malta

Nationalist Party

Mexico

National Action Party

Mongolia

Democratic Party

Mozambique

Mozambican National Resistance

Norway

Conservative Party
Progress Party

Pakistan

Pakistan Muslim League

Portugal

Social Democratic Party
Democratic and Social Centre – People's Party

Republic of China (Taiwan)

Kuomintang (Chinese Nationalist Party)

Saint Kitts and Nevis

People's Action Movement

Serbia

Serbian Progressive Party

South Korea

Saenuri Party

Spain

People's Party

Sri Lanka

United National Party

Sweden

Moderate Party

Thailand

Democrat Party

Turkey

Justice and Development Party

United Kingdom

Conservative Party
Ulster Unionist Party
Democratic Unionist Party
UK Independence Party

United States

Republican Party
Constitution Party

Uruguay

National Party

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is,
Anything you hope to prove is, A: It's way to long winded & it's on purpose, after Caputh answers your every little nuance with respect, you want another debate? DB, Why not concentrate on FZ more? If your graceful in a small squall, it makes it easier to win the debate in the long run. That's if your not just fuckin' around here.
You seem to be a nice fellow that for some reason has to "know" about every country's biz but his own land of claimed residence & work. You know it all do you? In the end of a debate knowledge is gained by learning from the debate. Isn't that why we debate?
B: There is no B.

Back on Topic: Start a debate thread y'all! This really isn't "Breaking News"... Thanks. :|

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Last edited by KAPT.KIIRK on Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:32 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is, there are conservative parties in existence that are not centre-right or liberal/conservative. Most are, but some aren't. The Conservative Party in Canada or the bulk of the Republican Party in the US, are some examples.

While liberalism is certainly not the same thing as socialism, they sure as hell are RELATED - which is part of my point. And for you to even deny that is fucking hilarious. Your initial point, on the other hand, strictly stated that conservative parties ran the 3 or 4 countries I listed. But you mentioned NOTHING about "centre" in the title. This makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, thanks for owning yourself AGAIN. Because there are SHITLOADS of centre-right parties in existence that are a mix-mash of socialist/liberal/conservative beliefs/policies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... by_country




Ah. Outside evidence! Good!

The only trouble being the link that you post to brings up a page entitled
"List of conservative parties by country"

and goes on to state:

"Many countries have political parties that are deemed to represent conservatism, center-right or right-wing politics, Tory views which may be referred to informally as conservative parties even if not explicitly named so. Those parties are listed below, many of which are members of the International Democrat Union."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... by_country

Now your original complaint was that I was being a manipulative shithead by naming three European governments "Conservative". You then went on to say they weren't conservative, they were centre right and deduced from the word centre that they were (social) liberals. Because they were (social) liberals (according to you) they were thus (partly) socialists. It now turns out that you post a link to Wikipedia that gives exactly the same description of these parties as I did, referring to them primarily as conservatives. What a bunch of manipulative shitheads there are out there.

There is, on this page at least, no reference even to liberalism (either social or economic), let alone socialism. In the vast majority of cases, if one clicks on the links (and I really see no point in listing them all), the liberalism they refer to is laissez-faire (Manchester) liberalism.

Look, much about what is Socialist, Liberal, Centre and Right in a country depends on the context. If we take the example of Germany on the far left we have, the Marxist Leninists. Then, appropriately enough, the Left Party who describe themselves as Socialists, though in fact they have a political background that goes back to the East German Communists. Then we have the Greens, possibly the true Socialist party. Then we have the Social Democrats, whom I would describe as Centre-Left. Next, The Pirates whom I would describe as Centre (Left) as they have only one real policy and that is Freedom in the Internet, though they also have advocated economic principles similar to the FDP. Then we have the CDU, whom I would describe as Conservative Centre Right. Then the CSU, generally to be described Conservative Right. Then the FDP, a party that used to be in the Centre, but due to its concentration on (neo)liberal economic policies I would place to the right of the CDU. Then comes the Alternative for Germany, which is going in the direction of an extreme right-wing party. Then the NPD who are basically Nazis.

The term "socialist" as a description of CDU/CSU is utterly unfitting, as we have at least five parties to the left of them. The term "liberal" applies to them, generally speaking, as they have, in the past adopted neoliberal economic policies; which explains why the FDP failed to be elected in the last German election - their voters saw little reason to vote for a party whose economic views were represented by the larger CDU/CSU. Now, Conservatism is not (social) liberalism, nor is it socialism. It can contain slight elements of (social) liberalism. But to then make the leap to say because it contains elements of (social) liberalism it is therefore even partly socialist is not logical. Does, e.g. advocating the (social) liberal policy of marriage between homosexuals (as some but not all members of the CDU do) make a party socialist?
I think not.

In particular, to call the mother of all Conservative Parties, the British Conservatives (they coined the term after all), even partly socialist is just silly.

This is my last post on this thread on this topic (sorry, Kiirk).

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Last edited by Caputh on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:29 am 
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http://www.csun.edu/~ds56723/phil338/hout338rubric.htm

DEBATE GRADING RUBRIC

CAPUTH: 4 / 4 / 4 / 4

DB: 2 /1 / 1 / 2


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:30 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is,
Anything you hope to, A: "prove here this what? It's way to long winded & it's on purpose, after Caput answers your every little nuance with respect and dignity, you want another debate? DB, Why not concentrate on FZ more. If your graceful in a small squall defeat, it makes it easier to win the debate in the long run. That's if your not just fuckin' around here.
I know you behind the curtain DB, your a nice fellow that for some reason has to "know" about every country's biz but his own land of claimed residence/work. You know it all. In the end of a debate knowledge is gained by learning from the debate. So why let the same big dog bite you again? (I don't mean Caputh either)
Please don't tell me you've just been feeding me what I want to hear (like The Cave pix's). Is that it? Have you used my heart strings to string me along all the while thinking I'm an underling with no real opinion? Maybe you bought me for a few "googled" pictures of an old time used to be, old nostalgia trip, eh? That's fuckin' criminal. Really.
To what use could that ever serve anyone? I get famous, you what, whitemale me!?! :mrgreen:



saved for posterity.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:09 am 
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Susan Boyle is someone who wouldn't have gotten a chance without that X-factor stuff. Now that the surprise element is gone, she's pretty much petered out here.
Oh yes, of course there are kids in show bizz at the moment. Like the lovely Amira who stunned everybody with her surprisingly mature rendition of a Puccini aria in Holland's Got Talent. She got to perform at the Philippines charity yesterday. But that sells by that other lowest common denominator: cute. Cute is what keeps Hello Kitty, Pucca and Anne Geddes going.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:10 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is,
Anything you hope to, A: "prove here this what? It's way to long winded & it's on purpose, after Caput answers your every little nuance with respect and dignity, you want another debate? DB, Why not concentrate on FZ more. If your graceful in a small squall defeat, it makes it easier to win the debate in the long run. That's if your not just fuckin' around here.
I know you behind the curtain DB, your a nice fellow that for some reason has to "know" about every country's biz but his own land of claimed residence/work. You know it all. In the end of a debate knowledge is gained by learning from the debate. So why let the same big dog bite you again? (I don't mean Caputh either)
Please don't tell me you've just been feeding me what I want to hear (like The Cave pix's). Is that it? Have you used my heart strings to string me along all the while thinking I'm an underling with no real opinion? Maybe you bought me for a few "googled" pictures of an old time used to be, old nostalgia trip, eh? That's fuckin' criminal. Really.
To what use could that ever serve anyone? I get famous, you what, whitemale me!?! :mrgreen:



saved for posterity.

Thanks brainpang, even I'm tiring of these long diatribes nitpicking about basically nada and they take up a half page too. :roll:
Start a thread or get a room, ya know? :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is, there are conservative parties in existence that are not centre-right or liberal/conservative. Most are, but some aren't. The Conservative Party in Canada or the bulk of the Republican Party in the US, are some examples.

While liberalism is certainly not the same thing as socialism, they sure as hell are RELATED - which is part of my point. And for you to even deny that is fucking hilarious. Your initial point, on the other hand, strictly stated that conservative parties ran the 3 or 4 countries I listed. But you mentioned NOTHING about "centre" in the title. This makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, thanks for owning yourself AGAIN. Because there are SHITLOADS of centre-right parties in existence that are a mix-mash of socialist/liberal/conservative beliefs/policies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... by_country




Ah. Outside evidence! Good!

The only trouble being the link that you post to brings up a page entitled
"List of conservative parties by country"

and goes on to state:

"Many countries have political parties that are deemed to represent conservatism, center-right or right-wing politics, Tory views which may be referred to informally as conservative parties even if not explicitly named so. Those parties are listed below, many of which are members of the International Democrat Union."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... by_country

Now your original complaint was that I was being a manipulative shithead by naming three European governments "Conservative". You then went on to say they weren't conservative, they were centre right and deduced from the word centre that they were (social) liberals. Because they were (social) liberals (according to you) they were thus (partly) socialists. It now turns out that you post a link to Wikipedia that gives exactly the same description of these parties as I did, referring to them primarily as conservatives. What a bunch of manipulative shitheads there are out there.

There is, on this page at least, no reference even to liberalism (either social or economic), let alone socialism. In the vast majority of cases, if one clicks on the links (and I really see no point in listing them all), the liberalism they refer to is laissez-faire (Manchester) liberalism.


ONE. MORE. TIME. FOR. THE. WORLD.:

While liberalism is certainly not the same thing as socialism, they sure as hell are RELATED - which is part of my point. And for you to even deny that is fucking hilarious. Your initial point, on the other hand, strictly stated that conservative parties ran the 3 or 4 countries I listed. But you mentioned NOTHING about "centre" in the title. This makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

The link I posted, and once you click on each parties' particular wiki link and view the "political position" & "ideology" on the right tab, clearly shows that most parties are a mix-mash of either or socialist/liberal/conservative platforms/beliefs. Only a HANDFUL are strictly conservative. STOP fucking around. :roll:

Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
Look, much about what is Socialist, Liberal, Centre and Right in a country depends on the context. If we take the example of Germany on the far left we have, the Marxist Leninists. Then, appropriately enough, the Left Party who describe themselves as Socialists, though in fact they have a political background that goes back to the East German Communists. Then we have the Greens, possibly the true Socialist party. Then we have the Social Democrats, whom I would describe as Centre-Left. Next, The Pirates whom I would describe as Centre (Left) as they have only one real policy and that is Freedom in the Internet, though they also have advocated economic principles similar to the FDP. Then we have the CDU, whom I would describe as Conservative Centre Right. Then the CSU, generally to be described Conservative Right. Then the FDP, a party that used to be in the Centre, but due to its concentration on (neo)liberal economic policies I would place to the right of the CDU. Then comes the Alternative for Germany, which is going in the direction of an extreme right-wing party. Then the NPD who are basically Nazis.

The term "socialist" as a description of CDU/CSU is utterly unfitting, as we have at least five parties to the left of them. The term "liberal" applies to them, generally speaking, as they have, in the past adopted neoliberal economic policies; which explains why the FDP failed to be elected in the last German election - their voters saw little reason to vote for a party whose economic views were represented by the larger CDU/CSU. Now, Conservatism is not (social) liberalism, nor is it socialism. It can contain slight elements of (social) liberalism. But to then make the leap to say because it contains elements of (social) liberalism it is therefore even partly socialist is not logical. Does, e.g. advocating the (social) liberal policy of marriage between homosexuals (as some but not all members of the CDU do) make a party socialist?
I think not.

In particular, to call the mother of all Conservative Parties, the British Conservatives (they coined the term after all), even partly socialist is just silly.

This is my last post on this thread on this topic (sorry, Kiirk).


As usual, your above post is pointless and acts as a red-herring that takes my points out of context AND misinterprets what I've been saying, especially since I NEVER called the British Conservatives, socialists.

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
The FACT is,
Anything you hope to prove is, A: It's way to long winded & it's on purpose, after Caputh answers your every little nuance with respect, you want another debate? DB, Why not concentrate on FZ more? If your graceful in a small squall, it makes it easier to win the debate in the long run. That's if your not just fuckin' around here.
You seem to be a nice fellow that for some reason has to "know" about every country's biz but his own land of claimed residence & work. You know it all do you? In the end of a debate knowledge is gained by learning from the debate. Isn't that why we debate?
B: There is no B.

Back on Topic: Start a debate thread y'all! This really isn't "Breaking News"... Thanks. :|


Firstly, my posts are concise, NOT long-winded. You MUST be getting me mixed up with the Self-Described Manipulative Shithead - and his posts you're referring to are NOT respectful.

Secondly, what makes you think I don't know about "my own land of claimed residence & work"?

Thirdly, no, I don't know it all. But I'm always learning.

Lastly, lay off the pot for a few minutes, my friend. You usually make good posts. This one is unfortunately not one of them.

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 am
Posts: 3516
Judge Tally. Only 1 judge participating.
Total points divided by 4.

Caputh: 7.75 (WINNER)

Disco Boy: 3 (LOSER)

for further debate, see THE DEBATE THREAD.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 am
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“He Took the Time to Chat”: Ken Starr’s Plea for a Child Molester

http://gawker.com/he-took-the-time-to-c ... 1464516616


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