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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:59 am 
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I'm an atheist, and I believe FZ was, too. This post makes me scratch my head a bit:

>>His music doesn't bash religion it is usually against people exploiting religion, people acting on religion in an illogical manner, but never a direct offense towards God or anyother god. The reason all these nuts say his music is evil is because he is insulting them, not what they believe.

Um....have you HEARD "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"? "Dumb All Over"? Frank most CERTAINLY bashed religion.

"Those Jesus freaks, well they's friendly, but the shit they believe has got their minds all shut..."

Religion was man-made from the get-go. I'm a staunch atheist. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins...great stuff. I have no problem in people beliving what they want to believe, but don't push it on ME, brother!

"Do what you wanna, do what you will...just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill. And, when you pay the bill, kindly leave a little tip and help the next POOR SUCKER ON HIS ONE-WAY TRIP."

:wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:06 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
I'm crying here. You've summed up my feelings perfectly.


haha cal... mondstar certainly has that knack of summing up everyone's unspoken thoughts, in a way which we smile gently or weep openly in recognition. lovely.

my religion is big boobs.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:10 am 
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Jesus Thinks You're A Jerk is one of Frank's best song lyrics I think..

just found this pic too:
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:50 am 
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(i'm weeping the last weak's 7days)

Inca road solo, beat this ...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:36 am 
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well well, almost forgot: best before the-m imaginary sitar solo burnings, m@ 7:25: ah-HA::: Perky ...goggoes, all of'em (haven't heard this lulla-bye ...) (done in dunno time, the fetchinna of that file)

vamp my campfire

pls employ WMP and then either the viz. ´Alchemie´ or ´Ambience´ @random. (not sure the 11er is so nice like the predecessor)

--Grandelf, research-kitchen-apprentice-..maydjeesh-..hum.... (it works, ev'rywhere, magikk, that is - WAtch Yaself 4 a chance!!! ..and give the change to the ....no-one knows, ask Steven Hawking. Something in the clouds, e.g. have scene the most marvelous ...mooving clown-in-formationzZ) !!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:02 pm 
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I had a dream a couple years ago, you usually forget dreams shortly after waking but I remember this one still.

I was walking with a young man who said he was going to do something nice for me or something to that effect and he took me into this building. We walked into a science lab, the kind I had during school with counters, sinks, stools and students. At the front of the room was Frank at the chalkboard chalk in one hand a pointing stick in the other and formulas written on the board. He looked as he did during the senate hearings with shorter hair and wearing casual suit. He was teaching science.

I was totally shocked and surprised. The young man interrupted and took me up to Frank and introduced me as a big fan of his. He was very polite and brief and gave me an autograph (too bad it was a dream) I thanked him and he said your welcome and thats it.

I don't know what Frank thought about life after death. But I think Frank is in another dimension as we speak, teaching science.


I have to add that just recently I saw an interview on YouTube. I think it's a dutch or German interview. Frank was asked what he would have liked to have been if not a composer and he answered a scientist. I was dumbfounded.


Last edited by suzycreamchez on Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:06 am 
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pappy wrote:
I'm an atheist, and I believe FZ was, too. This post makes me scratch my head a bit:

>>His music doesn't bash religion it is usually against people exploiting religion, people acting on religion in an illogical manner, but never a direct offense towards God or anyother god. The reason all these nuts say his music is evil is because he is insulting them, not what they believe.

Um....have you HEARD "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"? "Dumb All Over"? Frank most CERTAINLY bashed religion.

"Those Jesus freaks, well they's friendly, but the shit they believe has got their minds all shut..."

Religion was man-made from the get-go. I'm a staunch atheist. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins...great stuff. I have no problem in people beliving what they want to believe, but don't push it on ME, brother!

"Do what you wanna, do what you will...just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill. And, when you pay the bill, kindly leave a little tip and help the next POOR SUCKER ON HIS ONE-WAY TRIP."

:wink:


"I would consider myself to be religious but unchurched." FZ

Not an atheist!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:21 am 
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brainpang wrote:
pappy wrote:
I'm an atheist, and I believe FZ was, too. This post makes me scratch my head a bit:

>>His music doesn't bash religion it is usually against people exploiting religion, people acting on religion in an illogical manner, but never a direct offense towards God or anyother god. The reason all these nuts say his music is evil is because he is insulting them, not what they believe.

Um....have you HEARD "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"? "Dumb All Over"? Frank most CERTAINLY bashed religion.

"Those Jesus freaks, well they's friendly, but the shit they believe has got their minds all shut..."

Religion was man-made from the get-go. I'm a staunch atheist. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins...great stuff. I have no problem in people beliving what they want to believe, but don't push it on ME, brother!

"Do what you wanna, do what you will...just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill. And, when you pay the bill, kindly leave a little tip and help the next POOR SUCKER ON HIS ONE-WAY TRIP."

:wink:


"I would consider myself to be religious but unchurched." FZ

Not an atheist!


"unchurched"?.... that means "church" can be used as a verb.
*shudder*

I hope no one churches me.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:05 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
pappy wrote:
I'm an atheist, and I believe FZ was, too. This post makes me scratch my head a bit:

>>His music doesn't bash religion it is usually against people exploiting religion, people acting on religion in an illogical manner, but never a direct offense towards God or anyother god. The reason all these nuts say his music is evil is because he is insulting them, not what they believe.

Um....have you HEARD "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"? "Dumb All Over"? Frank most CERTAINLY bashed religion.

"Those Jesus freaks, well they's friendly, but the shit they believe has got their minds all shut..."

Religion was man-made from the get-go. I'm a staunch atheist. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins...great stuff. I have no problem in people beliving what they want to believe, but don't push it on ME, brother!

"Do what you wanna, do what you will...just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill. And, when you pay the bill, kindly leave a little tip and help the next POOR SUCKER ON HIS ONE-WAY TRIP."

:wink:


"I would consider myself to be religious but unchurched." FZ

Not an atheist!
I'd really like a reference for that FZ quote, brainpang.

--Bat

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Location: Billy, the mountain...
I googled it and...

http://www.arf.ru/Misc/po_int.html

Quote:

"Sure, I had religious feelings, but that's not something that you quantize by whether or not Jesus, or a replica or representative thereof, is whispering in your ear. I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with spiritual feelings. It's like when you listen to music: you either get it or you don't. A real religious feeling transcends the brand of the religion. It doesn't make any difference if it's Hebrew or Moslem or any of the little splinter Christian things. You got it or you don't have it, and no amount of banging you over the heed is going to instill it in you. You can't inflict that on somebody. That's the thing you can really learn to bate about the dogma, because it IS like, "Repeat after me." And then you have to ask yourself, Why am I repeating after YOU? Who in the fuck are YOU? Why are you so terrific? You dress like Halloween, but other than that, what are you telling me? Why are you improving my spiritual health here? Because I've already got it, I don't need you.

"You can practice spirituality and lead a good life without going through the dogmatic machinery of any kind of religion. I think that many people have found that for themselves--one of the statistics is that there are 40 million unchurched in the United States today. That does not mean that they're atheists or that they're hateful people; it just means simply that they do not subscribe to any particular brand of rigamarole. Nor do they invest in it. I would consider myself to be religious but unchurched. I intend to remain that way, and I'm going to continue to raise my children that way...." (pp.334- 335)


And that definetively proofs my thesis that Frank Zappa was much more open minded on this subject than it might appear at first look, in a superficial analysis...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:57 am 
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Yes, it is from Peter Occhiogrosso's ONCE A CATHOLIC Book. Thanks for that link, Mr GG, I'm looking forward to reading the interview.
A lot of fascinating stuff in the Catholic book. Interestingly, Frank says he "was pretty devout up until the time I was about eighteen..." And that after the Catholic thing he read a lot and Zen seemed to be most in line with his personal beliefs. I sure hope Bobby Zappa's book comes out soon as it promises to speak of Frank's early, soul-searching years. Interest in the Occult, etc etera. All of this makes sense to me as I pretty much followed the same path (great minds think alike and all that, he he he).
And BTW, did I not hear Occhiogrosso is writing a book about Frank? Now that s one I would buy sight unseen. ta ta, bp


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:46 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Not an atheist!


Yes, Frank was very much an atheist.

It is a quite obvious conclusion after viewing his life. He was so far away from belief in gods that you can imagine. His whole life, his way of being, his way of acting in the real world, is a blueprint for a man who denies religious influence, he was A MAN OF SCIENCE.

No matter what Occhiogrosso might put it in his book, religious Frank was not. It is a matter of public knowledge that Frank at one time considered becoming a monk. He revealed this to Simon Prentis during their cooperation. It is also of public knowledge that Frank dismissed the Catholic teachings at the age of 17 and went on to study other philosophies. He has said that Zen struck him as as "sympathetic". (Frank was a big reader in his youth.)

From the age of 18 Frank had no faith whatsoever in any religion. And his reported interest in the occult is by no means an indication to belief in satan or in fallen angels.

Frank was an atheist because he came to view our reality from a scientific standpoint. He was very much like Richard Feynman in that regard: Our earth is to little in the vastness of the universe; our stage is too little for the drama.

Frank is on record repeatedly mocking or denying belief in god. He said he was a "devout pagan", he said "No" if questioned if he was a believer, he said "some of you people are probably not very religious, and one could hardly blame you."

Frank is the quintessential scientist and he had no time for religion. He had lots of aquaintances who were scientists who came to the house and discussed topics in science. His work is littered with references that tells about his fascination with science.

I know all this to be fact, and neither gz nor dz, would dis-ergree. So don't let believers claim Frank as their own.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:00 pm 
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IMO, Frank was vehemently against organized religion, but not strictly atheist...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
I know all this to be fact, and neither gz nor dz, would dis-ergree. So don't let believers claim Frank as their own.


I'm sorry, but it seems like that's exactly like what you're doing...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:53 am 
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FeralCats wrote:
Quote:
I know all this to be fact, and neither gz nor dz, would dis-ergree. So don't let believers claim Frank as their own.


I'm sorry, but it seems like that's exactly like what you're doing...


I have plenty to say on this subject but Feral pretty much summed up the net result in one sentence.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:58 am 
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notralph wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Not an atheist!


I know all this to be fact, and neither gz nor dz, would dis-ergree. So don't let believers claim Frank as their own.


What you said sounds very plausable, but since you know it as 'fact,' can you prove it?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Probably not, it wouldn't hold up in court.

But Frank was such a scientific man that the supernational could not enter in his world view. There are thousands of statements that bear this out. Chech his book for example. The weird thing is that there is still in 2007 questions about Frank's worldview and on the Zappa Forum no less.

Surely, noone here reaslly thinks that FZ became a beleiver...?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:16 pm 
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Maybe he was an agnostic. That's what I am. To be a catholic agnostic means that the good Lord will forgive everything even you don't believe in God's existence. Damn' comfortable.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:31 pm 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Maybe he was an agnostic. That's what I am. To be a catholic agnostic means that the good Lord will forgive everything even you don't believe in God's existence. Damn' comfortable.

I may not believe in a higher power, but I still tend to follow the commandments, so I'll have a "Yeah, but..." to fall back on, just in case. Know what I mean?

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 Post subject: Zappa religious ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:16 am 
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Look here, brother,
who're you jiving with tha Kozmik Debris ?
Look here, brother,
don't you waste your time on me ! :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:15 pm 
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I find this thread pretty interesting !
Anyone here in the Fireparty (Beefheart) discussion group ?
Those folks had some wild-ass arguments on whether or not GOD
exists...


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 Post subject: Zappa haded exploitation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:31 am 
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His diatribes against religion were, as some posters have said, directed at those who exploited religion to force behaviorial changes on others (limiting personal freedom). FZ was all about personal freedom. However the family dealt with his remains after he passed away is immaterial.

Frank never attacked pwople who volunteered to help others, whatever their motivation...he said:

Do what you wanna
Do what you will
Just don't mess up
Your neighbor's thrill
'N when you pay the bill
Kindly leave a little tip
And help the next poor sucker
On his one way trip . . .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:26 pm 
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who gives a fuck anyway?

btw phpbb? lol.


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 Post subject: I give a fuck.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:52 pm 
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I know that Zappa was agnostic. I read and listened to everything he said and believed in his dismissal of belief. He basically took the scientific position, but honestly remained open to other possibilities (Did a booger bear come from somewhere out there?) Zappa lampooned everybody and every institution that took themselves too seriously. Soon as I got thoroughly "Zappafied" at age 15 in 1970, I stopped going to (Catholic) church. It seemed silly and pointless, because from the worldview of Zappa's universe, it seemed a Neanderthal ritual to me.

A lot has changed for me since 1970. A whole new world of other influences happened since then. I wrote an entire book about it. Mea Saurus, to be published in 2008. I returned to the church after mom died, yet I struggle with atheistic thoughts. Zappa is now only one in a chorus of little demons (figuratively) yelling "Bullshit!" in my ear as I struggle to believe in Jesus' promise.

A part of me still is agnostic. But it wages war with my hope and belief in the afterlife. I can't help but feel that if there is nothing after this life, then there is no fairness or reason for existence. Obviously many of the claims for the world to come are fiction but SOMETHING must survive. It must.

I hope Frank stuck to his guns and died believing in his atheism. To die an atheist is courageous. I respect such conviction. However, as the great Victorian agnostic scientist, Thomas Henry Huxley was fond of saying just in case he did wake up after death and found himself before the company of angels and saints, he would bow before them and say: "Gentlemen, I was wrong!"

Maybe Frank was wrong too- and is debating the intricacies of his baroque philosophy with Jesus, Mary and Joseph! It makes ME happy to think so. And I don't care if you think I'm an asshole. If Frank was alive, he would be the first to call me an asshole. There is NO WAY to know for sure, so place your bets!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:27 pm 
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As has been pointed out...Frank said he would've been a scientist if he hadn't have been a composer

I'm sure Frank would've been totally in his element with the current crop of researchers into metaphysics
I'm thinking Horowitz, Burisch & Wilcock etc.

I know Frank would've been into the recent scientific research regarding the Solfeggio frequencies
(Burisch & Horowitz)
I mean...he did come up with the Big Note theory in the sixties

As Frank said in the 'Humour' vid....you only have to look over there to find out

Thing is...Frank was too busy (read driven) composing music
If he'd approached scientific questions with the same vigour we'd probably have a lot more answers today

He chose to solve musical problems instead....but I'm not complaining

It's hard to think of a guy as sharp as Frank dismissing the whole deal as a happenstance random assemblage of molecules

He was closer to the truth than any of us might admit

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