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Question B) What is so wrong with wanting to see less disappointed kids out there this time around? I was so upset last year seeing these kids hangimng their heads, they should have enhjoyed themselves.

What is so wrong is the Kids you have been talking to not the Zappa Plays Zappa Band. Not every kid that goes to a Zappa Plays Zappa Show or listens to an Official Release for the first time is going to comprehend all that much. Even when Frank was alive I would say only a small percentage of that generation comprehended what was going no matter what musicians Frank had performign hsi music. Back then it was a time when it was O.K. to think. Do kids think today, Hell No! You yourself have talked on and on about what you have forgot even though you are a fan for so long. Hey I think I remember more when I was listening to Frank when I was 5 years old than you remember today for the way I see some of your commetary. But that's just me. I'll quote on your comments more another time but if a kid goes to a Zappa Plays Zappa Show there is no reason why what has allready been out their should not have delivered a dialation of thought to enter the world of Frank Zappa's Project Object. Personally I have seen a young man of about 8 to 10 years old backstage talking to Dweezil where the ZPZ event at The Wiltern Theatre in L.A. was the highlight of that kids life. Tears were literally in Dweezil's eyes.

Now what level of dissapointment any fans of a younger generation of music of 2007 comes away from these shows is extremely difficult to judge by. There is little to no commercial outlet this music for these kids. It's a a small time hype farse all these new jam bands today. What sells to the young kids today is Sanjaya, Justin Timerlake or Rain from Asia. If you want to pull in the girls just get Oprah Winfrey, Beyonce Knowels or Jennifer Lopez.

Yeah this all sounds so rediculous but honestly I am being so perverse because that is what is neceessary to take a look at the marktetpalce is for this live music. I don't want ZPZ to sound like a Jamband

The problem is not with the musicians. As Jim Morrison once said Fragile Eggshell Minds. Don't expect any kids to come away after one ZPZ show or listening to a few Zappa CDs to comprehend all that much immediately. ZPZ is planting the seeds propetry for anyone who attends these shows of any age. But you have to go to these shows with an open mind instead of being fillled with some E-Coli digestive dissorder. Most of the kids who listen to music today are filled with shit. Give the kids some time. My god you've been listening to Zappa for how many years and I don't trust your judgement all that much.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

Unexpected Perfection? How about a good band and an effort we all appreciate? Dweez would agree with my description much more than yours, as he pretty much said that to a journalist friend of mine, almost verbatum. That would be more accurate.

We probably needed a fresh thread, good idea here trend to start the new one. Too many kids were on the last one. I was tired of the personal insults, the juevnile tactics and their constant profanity. For those of you new to this discussion, here is the objective: this dialogue is in the interest of looking for ways to improve upon what for many people was a pretty average exeprience in '06. We love the band, we love the effort and the fact there is such a thing happening. We want more happy kids this time. Great moments, no doubt. But bottom line we just saw too many hanging heads around the tour on our media coverage. I saw personally way too many quiet kids and hanging heads after DC and Philly last year. So the objective here is two-fold 1)presenting the music as well as it can be, 2) helping in any we can the zpz band gaining more of an audience this time around. One example of this is that a movie screen will be used this time around, many are suggesting it is to help sell tickets. Demand is not as high as it should be, and unfortunately I see about a 15% return ratio from non - hardcores suich as myself who will support the family regardless. It's the new audience growing and coming back I and many others are worried about here. It just is not happenig consistently enough yet. '07 needs to be better.

What we are all looking at here, and looking for some answers on - the issues on the table if you will - are as follows: a) what is so wrong with wanting better musicians out there, to better represent Frank's legacy? B) What is so wrong with wanting to see less disappointed kids out there this time around? I was so upset last year seeing these kids hanging their heads, they should have enjoyed themselves much, much more. C) What is wrong with wanting them to gain 10,000 new fans per city instead of 4,000? D) I am trying to help accomplish the exact goal as stated by ZFT: get new fans and protect the legacy - and in my experiences they fell far short - so what is wrong with working together to offer suggestions to help them out? That is what this forum is for. I'd love to hear you explain to me - without the profanity and insults and rants and pictures - what is so wrong with each of those things. If you were a true decades-long Zappa family supporter like I am, which I believe you are, you should be asking the same questions. So what is so inappropriate about these qurestions. And please no more rants in response - we really want to help ZFT do this as well as they can. This is not a joke. Sure many people including me thought they were OK, we need to see more fans this time around. They eshould be getting 80% of that group to become more active fans instead of 50%. So how can that be done? And now responses to the issues on the table please.....

OMG, there is actually someone out there with less affinity for spellcheck than Trendmonger.
Personally, I think the band is fine. They got better over the course of the year. I saw them in Toronto in June, and Buffalo in October. Their sound was better on the fall/winter tour. More polished. No kids hanging their heads after the Buffalo show.The guest spots will continue over the years, and hopefully all the alumni we want to see will appear, even Ike. As far reaching more fans:They are playing more dates, they're doing a festival gig in Minnesota, that's a good start. Also that DVD should be coming out before the end of the year.

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"Too weird to live, too rare to die"-Hunter S. Thompson

The aforementioned "kids," with accompanying insults and profanity in tow, promise to be here in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....

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The fun hasn't beginned yet, uh, later on apparently The Mothers are gonna hand out the bingo cards and everything, you know

STFU colauita68

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Make your checks payable to QUENTIN ROBERT DeNAMELAND, Greatest Living Philostopher Known to Mankind.

I thought this thread was about Vinnie and his newfound love for Jesus:

http://www.drummersforjesus.com/html/po ... hp?finid=5

In the immortal words of Nelson: "Ha Ha!"

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"Too weird to live, too rare to die"-Hunter S. Thompson

wow, frank was right....the torture NEVER stops.....

colauita68: build a bridge, get over it.

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looks like i'm back playing with Clearlight Industries. CLI MySpace

colauita68

"You're talking alot. But you're not saying anything."
David Byrne

Please focus on the issues on the table, and save your personal insults for another forum. Do you have comments on the 4 questions on the table or not? Do you have any ideas as to how to improve ZPZ, any musicians in mind - alumni or not? SHould Dweezil get help with the rehearsals from someone like Art Barrow? I saw one person offer some decent feedback about how the band got better, this is encouraging. More constructive feedback please....

why are you still spewing out this garbage? Do you have anything constructive or positive to offer as to how ZPZ can do better this time around? Or are you just full of more personal attacks and BS? (This is the guy who tried to tell us he saw Zappa at age 10 - he even has the tshirt to prove it. We know this because he took the time to show us a picture he was that upset, the shirt still fits him now of course, 29 years later. The shirt is one of those retro reissue deals that you can probably get at your local music outlet, and at the very least at one of those fancy new shops they advertise on ebay. Lots of credibility here, I'm not sure we want your feedback even if you were capable of giving any positive suggestions.)

I definitely agree they improved over the tour, DC was markedly tighter than Philly. ALthough that isn't saying a whole lot. I thought the sound at the Tower was that of a glorified bar band and they were not even as good as some of the cover bands out there. In DC they atarted coming together more, a little more dynamic, a little more energy. We all agree this is complex material that will take time to learn, especially for this group. I still saw too many disappointed kids in DC, glad Buffalo had a better result. My suggestions have been get better musicians and get Dweez some mentorship running the rehearsals. He has done a lot of work the last couple of years learning this material, changing his guitar style. But lets face it, he grew up a Van Halen and Ozzy guy, he is taking on a massive challenge here. Some decent results here and there and we credit him for having the stones to take the chance. But it needs to be better or I fear the window they have to create this new audience will close without the best possible result. To prevent that he may need help from someone like Barrow who ran reharsals for multiple tours. Do you have any suggestions to offer as to how they could improve the tour this time?

In the words of that great pundit, Tonto, "What you mean we, white-man?" I wish to read all poster's comments. It helps define who they are, and I'll make my own decision on their merits, or lack thereof. You may dismiss jaypfunk, but you don't get to muzzle him.

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Stay with me flagrantly and we'll have ecstasy for all eternity.

"We" - as always - is a combination of things. It is a group of old hard core Zappa fans, about 100-150 of us that have stayed in touch since around '76 or '77. We is also the media consurtium I work for, a combination of music writers, musicians and fans. It is a small group of about 600 but full of long time professionals in the industry and dozens and dozens of Aappa Enthusiasts, both young and old. We are my neighbors who took their kids iin Ohilly and were highly disappointed for the quality of music / price ratio. I could go on, we are many people as you can see but it does not matter. That is irrlevenat who "we" is, I am curious why you even asked. I dont see how that helps improve the band, gain more fans than last time, and improve the presentation of the music so t sounds much more refined this time. So in any event - back to the issues - do you have anything constructive to offer as to how to improve the ZPZ tour this time around? Two of the suggetsions on the table are better musicians, and mentorship for Dweezil running rehearsals as he gets his arms around this material over time. Do you have anything to contribute along these lines? Or are you here to cause problems and try to attack people like some of the others? Thank you. (and nobody is trying to muzzle anybody, the lack of useful comments and constant bs just gets annoying. I would like positive, constructive feednack as to how to make this a much better tour this time, or I would porefer people go to another forum.)

Me? Nah, I've never seen a ZPZ concert. I'm just interested in reading the comments in your discussion of the band. It would probably be more correct to say I'm here to allow problems to occur, as opposed to actually causing them. Your use of "We" was undefined enough to make it seem like you were speaking for the rest of the forum members. Thanks for clarifying that it was 150 co-workers. (Oops, sorry, it's now grown to 700 to 750 various people, I see). Anyway, not taking part doesn't mean I'm not interested in understanding what's being said. I didn't realise asking for clarification would be considered an attack.

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Stay with me flagrantly and we'll have ecstasy for all eternity.

I didnt consider it an attack, I was asking if that is what we can expect. These "various people" play a large role in shaping the music industry, as you hopefully guessed, which is why I am taking this seriously. The reviews overall at the high levels of the music world and among long time Zappa fans and musicians was not good. And more importantly far too many young fans walked away doisappointed. We would like to try and contribute, in some way, to preventing that from happening again in '07. So yes while I am only speaking of about 750 people or so - and thank you for correcting yourself on the numbers - the reach of those people is extremely far. Thanks for showing interest, I would suggest seeing the band this year if you can. They're really not bad, just a long way to go with a short window of time to work with here. Try and get in for less than $50 if you can, if you pay $75 or more you may not feel as good about it afterwards. That was a common complaint in '06 that we are, again - trying to prevent in '07. Shop accordingly.

I think that the problem as it presents itself is twofold: The people that can help improve the artistry of the band are either not welcome into the Zappa camp or don't want to work with them anymore. Plus you have the unfortunate realization that even Frank, with the best musicians performing his music to near perfection, never did huge grossing tours. Now if the goal is to make the present Zappa Plays Zappa outfit better musically, I'm not sure that it's attainable. To disparage the present band, or any conglomeration of ZPZ from now is not a fruitful propositon, as the heart and driving soul of the music passed away. I doubt that bringing in any former band members would necessarily improve what's there. You would need more rehearsal time, which would mean more money, which precludes less of a money making venture. From what I've read on Arthur (I wish I could find the thread where somebody emailed him and asked him about it), he doesn't want anything to do with ZPZ.

The people that were brought together for the first leg of the tour (excepting Vai and Bozzio) were probably not as familiar with the music of Frank as the people who actually auditioned for him. I don't want to put the knock on them because they played the material great. I just don't think that any amount of rehearsal or bringing in people that could help is going to get it to the high standards of the man himself, because I can't think of anybody that would be the striving for perfection taskmaster that he was. And really, how many of us didn't go because it wasn't the standards that he strived for? How many more people would it bring in if it was? This band they have now are not slouches. (I would tell Vai to stop the wheedle whee whammy bar stuff, because it never would have been allowed).

So, we have a great band now. The time to devote to making it fantastic and perfect is not there. Nor is there anybody that could bring that to fruition.

Hey Hikers, you're normally a man of few words but when you choose to put a whole bunch down and get serious, you really do say something. Your comments are pretty much the only ones that haven't given me a headache while trying to untangle them on this topic.

The only thing I would add is that if what you say is given does anyone really think that ZPZ isn't doing the best they can under the circumstances or that they might not be because they couldn't be bothered? Regardless of whatever has led to the current circumstances and alienation of various alumni it's probably getting a bit late to do other than what they are doing now. Dweezil is who he is and I think he's doing something that takes a hell of lot of guts. If he wasn't a musician there would be no ZPZ. Do any of the nitpickers really think the ZFT can't get by without their suggestions?

When the ZFT comes to Australia I will go and see one concert and I'm willing to bet it will be worth it, but then again I'll be watching that concert in the real world.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Very well said. I think nobody is looking for perfection - you certainly will never see that word in any of my posts. All we are asking for is a better representation of the music and more open minds. Dweezil clearly needs help and why they aren't getting it remains interesting. Your comments ring true on several levels. Thanks for the contribution. And as we discussed a lot on another thread, the money issue cannot be ignored here. These people were picked in large part for their cost, not because they are the best available to present the music. We need to keep that in mind. What do people think of the idea of bringing in someone like Barrow to give Dweez the help he needs in rehearsals?? Does anyone else agree wih the writer from Chicago who said they MUST get a different gutar player? I agree with both siggestions. As for the guotar parts, why are we foirced to hear just Dweez? He has never played this stuff, he worshipped Eddie and Randy growing up. Again, nice effort the last couple of years changing his style and learnig what he has, but it is very clearly not enough. Dweez has improved but no way should he be playing all the leads, it gets boring quick. He was actually the target of most of the writers as well as most of the young fans who were disappointed. Him and Travers, who I also agreed was a weak spot.

the prospect of reading this thread makes me want to gouge my own eyes out with a rusty nail.

so i won't bother....

Wrong asshole. There are no fakes of that shirt you idiot. Wanna see a pic of the tag?? Get over yourself.

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Make your checks payable to QUENTIN ROBERT DeNAMELAND, Greatest Living Philostopher Known to Mankind.

I guess he wants to see your birth certificate (physically, of course, no Photo Shop editing!). Age is apparently an important issue here (probably because colaiuta68 himself has outgrown his old t-shirts a long time ago)

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"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, and don't kid yourself" - FZ
http://www.myspace.com/kirnehness

From what I've gleaned in 20 seconds, here's my response:

1. Frank wd cater his arrangements and write compositions based on the strength/weaknesses of the band members. Those days are over. It's a whole new animal. ZpZ is not an FZ band.

2. Frank was never all that popular when he was alive. Why should one expect ZpZ to win over the masses? That wd be great, but it's wishful thinking.

3. All these "disapointed" concert goers mentioned, perhaps what they didn't like is the compositions? Maybe they expected more vulgarity? Someone eating shit on stage? CollyHead, don't you remember the "fans" being disatisfied after an actual FZ show? I sure do. That's showbiz.

Please read more carefully before responding, take 50 seconds instead of 20.

A s far as your points:

1) Why do most of you keep comapring this to an FZ band? That is ludoicrous, nothing can be compared to an FZ band. This is what it is, and can be done better. How? Or are you saying they are as good as we can expect?

2) Nobody ever said appeal to the masses, that may actually in fact be a negative. We are after higher return ratios, highe rpercentage of happy fans under 35. I would say at the shows I attended, and based on our survey results, that about 35-40% were favorable, 60-65% thought they were good at times but overall below avearage. We expected that number to be 75-80% favorable. So there is about a 35-40 point gap to make up to really get a solid audience growing here. Then in response to our question, could the overall experience be improved signifcantly, we got about 81% yesses from the 18-35 demographic. We want that number to go donw in to tjhe 30's. So that is the goal, improve the numbers get a much more spolid response at every city and not half or less. The europe stuff was real rough from what I hear, these numbers are all based on the US leg when they were at least somewhat rehearsed and coming to gether by the fall. That is our goal, not appeal the "masses", absolutely not. We are trying to help them get 9-10,000 new fans per city and not 4-5,000, like I said above.

3) More vulgarity? No, please no. That is what I have been trying tpo avoid , if you had read some of the posts I have been working to keep these young ones on this forum clean, I have received some pretty stupid and vulgar comments just becaise of us trying to help ZFT out and do this better in '07. And I dont know where you got that idea, perhaps you were just suggesting it on your own. No, this is all about musicianship and preparation and sounding more professional. Having a separation between them and the cover bands that is noticeable, representing the music as well as it can be. Just too many mixed reviews there last time. Hopefully this gives you more of the picture now.

I definitely appreciate your desire to contribute. Do you have any actual suggestions pertaining to the issues being discussed? Where do you think they can improve? Do they need more giutar help? Does Dweezil need help in reherasal with someone more experienced like Thunes or Barrow, to help him transition into this role? Those are examples of some of the issues on the table. Thanks.

censorship? FUCK YOU!

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Make your checks payable to QUENTIN ROBERT DeNAMELAND, Greatest Living Philostopher Known to Mankind.