Zappa.com

I think we need to be careful to distinguish between being thrown off the forum and censorship. Yes, this is a "public" forum, but it only exists because a private enterprise (the ZFT) is funding it. As such, it is subject to their own discretion regarding behaviour vis a vis how it affects the forum at large. No, I'm not an apologist for the ZFT, but think of this analogy:

If you go to a resturant, it's a public space that's privately owned. In theory, everyone is welcome. Nobody can be denied access or service based on certain things like race or religious beliefs. However, if someone comes in and starts verbally abusing the customers or staff, the resturant has every right to throw that person out, for the sake of the people who are peacfully enjoying themselves, and thus the operation of the resturant itself.

I doubt that this guy was removed because he was critical of ZPZ. Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a year now?), but Paul Green was VERY critical of the initial ZPZ shows, and I don't think he was banned, was he? This guy reminded me of a loud guy who goes into a bar and just makes everyone else pissed off/amused, but ultimately it's just annoying. In addition, it's pretty clear that he misrepresented himself, and was trying to manipulate others. Then he did it again and again, despite people asking him to stop.

I wouldn't go see any of these if I was given a free flight to the USA, free tickets and a backstage pass, and unlimited access to Ed Nortons pant content. I'd rather lick a corpse.

[quote]

It's not that I am looking for Oprah Winfrey, Beyonce Knowels or Jennifer Lopez to be ZPZ Band Members or Icing On The Cake. This was just a perverted example using some 2007 Entetrtainment Media Icons that would immiddiately get 10,000 New fans in the seats fro every city.

The ZFTs goals and implimentation have always krept to Frank Zappa's artictic integrity. If one wants to literally analyze my comments of the feasability of Oprah Winfrey, Beyonce Knowels or Jennifer Lopez it would only seem to be artistically feasable for some One Shot Deal guest appearance to see what these folks could do in Frank Zappa's environment.

Frank had many guests over the years. I am sure back in the day when Zappa had Tom & Jerry aka Simon & Garfunkel make a guest appearance with the Mothers that those muscians at that time were not probable candidates for a guest spot. Same goes for Flo & Eddie and that turned out quite well. Anyhow it's not that I am pushing for this. It was more of a perverted analogy as to theat Faker68s wanting 10,000 new fans in some short window of opportunity.

To add a little to this there is a organization called Music For Youth
http://www.musicforyouth.org/that have done bennefit concerts with hundreds of artists performing the music of music icons such as Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan & Bruce Springsteen to name a few. These concerts have been held at Carnegie Hall & Lincoln Center and they raise money for Youth Education in music. So at some point if the ZFT ever wants, and I repeat if, to get involved in something like that it could make for Franks music being performed by 25 artists over the last 4 decades.

I thnk the ZFT are handling the Artitic Integrity as best as anyone can in an environment where few in the industry have given a helping hand to FranK Zappa. It's just always been this way. In the last few years their plans are really moving the Projet/Object forward. In teh present mode this CDs/ DVDs releases, ZPZ 2006 & 2007 tours and Merchadizing deal are a few examples of the ZPZ upholding that artistic integrity.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

Aspy writes:

I don't really know what you mean by this. I read it as you saying some kids don't like Zappa's music cos they don't open their mind enough to be able to appreciate it? Don't know if I got that right. If I did get that right and that's what you meant, then I think that's a really unfair comment to make. I hate the dirge that penetrates our lives and claims to be "music" nowadays as much as the next Zappa fan, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for liking something that wasn't to my taste. The very fact that we have this excuse for music in society nowadays, just makes what Dweezil is doing with these young "unknown" guys in the band, more important. [quote]

In any given period of time some will get it and some will not get it. Those that didn't get it were not meant to get it.

Now Kids today.

Well theses kids of today just have less of an open mind and false sense of expression than kids of the 1960s where the culture was encouraging people to think and express themselves quite a bit more individually. Not that the 60s is some perfect model for expressionism but I tend to think that generally speaking an open mind rebellion had started.

In 2007 kids express themselves by voting on American Idol, getting tattos and piercings moreso than using their eyes and ears or instruments and paint brushes or standign up to political flag waving.

In the 70s we really started seeing a downward spiral of expressionism with graffiti becoming some culture of expressionism. Hey blowing things up, abusing humans or someone's personal property have always ben to some extent a form of expressionism for kids that I do not support but it all tannsended into the music in Gangsta Rap. Much of the negative energy worldwide is severly misguided be it of humans of any age group.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

I know, I didnt for one minute think you were suggesting that list of materialistic morons be added to the line up! Frankly, i'd think anyone who suggested that was totally off their cake! I was just saying, in general, I'd rather lick a corpse than pay to see any of them, even if Ed Norton was included in the deal.

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"Listen to that noise! It's like Barry White eating wasps."

Douche, it was a joke.
lighten up, eh?
Why didn't you post the link to the Apostrophe/Over-nite Sensation thread where I agreed with you.... the winking pumpkin should have been your first clue Scooby.

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Wanna Buy A Grunt With A Third Party Check

Well nice joke. Sorry I did not get it. It just seemed well, you would never agree with me on anything just because of who I am. I think I have observed some of that behavior from forum members on occasion. At times soem ahve just tuned me out or created arguments to my opinions because of who I am regardless of what I am saying or how many spelling errors. Why don't we for the sake of Franks Artistic Integrity burry the hatchet and enjoy Franks work in a kindler and gentler way. I am not suggesting a thousand points of light but rather just for us to agree what we agree on in an Official Sense making the most out of that.

If one of the reasons you think I am such a douche or kool aid drinker is because I get irate over forum members pushing Non-Official Concepts let me kindly remind you that this is an Official Website and all those Non-Official Sites have their own place to be Non-Official.

Personally maybe I will try to just not comment on anything that is not official and let everyone just say whatever they feel official or not.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

Perfectly put. If anyone doesn't think the ZFT can take a little heat they be crazy.

Exactly, not everyone will get it, so what's the point in trying to convert anyone? Those that get what Zappa is about, were always gonna be of that midset, those that don't get him, frankly I'd rather they were watching American Idol, to be honest.

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"Listen to that noise! It's like Barry White eating wasps."

I don't see Converting Everyone being a goal for the ZFT. I think it is a labor of love how they dedicate themselves to protecting the artistic integgrity of Frank Zappa and that includes ZPZ because that all falls under the ZFT Umbrella of Services being The Worlds Finest Optional Entertainment.

Regarding the youth of today. We can read in interviews and publications it is a goal of ZPZ where we can see getting Franks music performed Authentically & Authoritively, giving the youth an opportunity to open their minds to Frank's music is an objective. They are doing this.

My opinions of youth having less of an open mind on anything in 2007 as compared to 1967 is just my opinion. I don't see much of a Thought Rebellion against Goverment & Commercialism today. There is a downward spiral. I hope when Bush gets out of office this can change but it's really bad these days.

Possibly if a portion of youth open their mind to Frank that could develop that Freak Out Ideology but for kids today it is few and far between. I am glad the ZFT is giving them a chance for Zappa's Genious is a Category All To Itself. All of these Commercial Genres, with all their labeled record bins over the last 6 decades, in the general sense of Rock & Roll, has little to nothing at all to do with Frank Zappa and his ideas of a Thought Rebellion or much of youths individual or collective words and thoughts on society, artistic expression in general or understanding Zappa's music.

FranK Zappa and everything about him is Unique.

It's Zappa

This is not about force feeding Zappa like Castor Oil to a child. It's just about giving youth and hard cores a taste of Authentic And Authoritive.

No one else is doing this.

Faker68's bogus data collection and the ZFT being involved in this business practice seemed to be Malicious Slander.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

The way I see it is kids have always had the same mindset since the sixties. There will always be those that follow whats popular to try to fit in with their peer groups and those with a penchent for challenge. The thing about Zappa is he never was a truly mainstream musician and despite a couple of commercial successes, most Zappa fans IMHO are outside of the box trendwise. He was'nt pushing clothing styles, shoes, lifestyles, food products or anything else than simply the music. Thats what distinguishes Zappa from most pop icons is that it was always about music and artistic integrity.

Certainly the average Twizted or Jessica Simpson fan will likely never get Zappa's music and their not obligated too.

I like to think of Zappa fans as people who are fed up with conformity and want something more challenging to entertain themselves other than what the status quo has to offer, whether it was 40+ years ago or 40 years from now.

Oh, good grief

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Wanna Buy A Grunt With A Third Party Check

Oh, good grief[/quote]

I like Charlie Brown. Have not seen it in years.

I ponder the thought of a Charlie Brown Halloween Special with Zappa Music.

Charlie Brown " The Devils Come Out"

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

HEY!! That's MY line!!

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Let's hear it again for the London Philharmonic Orchestra!

Couldn't be helped.
It needed to be said.

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Wanna Buy A Grunt With A Third Party Check

Granted. Thanks for filling in for me.

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Let's hear it again for the London Philharmonic Orchestra!

Anytime.

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Wanna Buy A Grunt With A Third Party Check

I know it's not a case of trying to convert everyone, some will like it, some won't and no amount of wanting or trying will change that.
I agree, I think it's great that they try to preserve his music and artistic integrity.


Yep, and they're doing a grand job, getting out there and promoting and performing ZPZ.
Perform it and the fact "that Zappa guy performed some amazing music", will get around by word of mouth.


As I said, I think it's great that we have the opportunity to go and see something like ZPZ, my Daughter wants to come along next time (hopefully they will come back to old blighty one day) and she's only 10 years old. If say, ten parents at every gig took their kids along with them, the chances are they would develop a love of Zappa (if they haven't already) and then go on to spread that to their friends. The youth are being given a taste of Zappa, and once they've tasted, they will want to consume more or they will walk away in favour of something more mainstream (and I think any kid that would walk away in favour of something more mainstream wouldnt be at a ZPZ gig in the first place). As I said, they either will be open minded enough to like what he did, and what ZPZ do, or they will walk away and buy something by an "American Idol".

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"Listen to that noise! It's like Barry White eating wasps."

Listen you are forgetting something, Franks music is being played live. That to me is all that matters. I really don't care wether kids were dissapointed or not. I was very satisfied with both tours. Sure could they have been tighter in Philly, the sound a little better, more enthusiasm. Of course, but who really gives a shit. I got to see Franks music played live by a bunch of good musicians and some Zappa alumni. I am 36 and just missed the 88 band, i got into zappa a year later. I have been waiting for the zappa family to do something like this since Franks death. I will see any band that has the balls to play franks music anytime anywhere. This perfection shit and authenticity crap is what it is, horseshit. You want perfection listen to the albums, that what they are there for. Personally I wanted to see what Dweezil could do live with his dads music and I for one am satisfied. Stop worrying about the kids of today and wether they will ever know Franks music. I never saw him live and I sure as hell found it. The kids of today who have a passion for good music will eventually seek this out as well as other great music. The ones who don't care to find franks music, fuck em. More room at the show for me and you who love franks music.

Love to all,

Michael Umanoff

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

--Albert Einstein

Great points. Even if you're not completely satumfied, they're keeping Frank's music alive, which is the important thing.

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Some folks got it,
some folks don't,
some so yoogly,
they never won't

exactly my point

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

--Albert Einstein

Thanks to this thread, Depeche Mode's song "Personal Jesus" has gone through my head all week. Thanks a lot, Trendmonger.

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Let's hear it again for the London Philharmonic Orchestra!

well said,,,,

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if you knew suzie, like I know suzie, oh, oh, oh what a creamcheese,,,,

If you care or not most of the kids I talked at 7 shows had a great time. Time of their lives. All this third party talk of kids being dissapointed is a bunch of crap. From what I saw only one kid was dissapointed and this kid in my opinion was brainwashed by Paul Green's inability to seperate his own lack of respect towards Gail Zappa and what ZPZ was doing on the stage.

After the ZPZ Tasting show following the Jammies, about a year ago Paul Green comes here trashing the performacne. I went to that show with Al Malkin and we had a great time observing the performances to be something very special. Paul Green knows so much about Zappa that he does not even know who Al Malkin is. Al Malkin is part of Joe's Garage and was at the sessions at Village Recorders so I think he knows a little about Zappa. At a point in the show I wanted to leave or seats and listen to the accoustics at various points in the club. I remember dancing to Immaginary Diseases where I felt I was taken to heaven. As I turned I noticed Gail was behind me at her booth watching me dance for a brief moment. When we spoke we both knew that the ZPZ band had nailed it. So Paul Green comes on here saying this show sucked and talked crap about Immaginary Diseases. This was the first evening, World Premeire performances by the ZPZ Band. Within a short period of time so many people in the industry are giving very high priases to the ZPZ band. Paul Green in his Humpty Dumpty Stance removes all his negative commentary. He then goes on to brag how he has signed Adrian Belew where a short time after this bragging period Adrians performace of City Of Timy Lights with an SOR Band is one of the worst performances I have ever seen in my life. Why Paul acts how he does I do not know but my opinion is that his impression showed he had no clue in musicianship. His school is a good thing for kids who want to learn Rock & Roll. I am excited that Mike Keneally got involved but I sincerely hope Paul has changed his attitude.

All this negative talk seems due to some problem where certain people have fallen off the ZFT Approval Fence. To me they look like Humpty Dumpty and I highly doubt Ike Willis or any Alumni Quotient can put them back together again. If anyone wants to enjoy Zappa Plays Zappa it would help for them to let go of Unauthorized Intrusions of their intellect when they go to a ZPZ show.

If Any concert goer did not get it they we're not suppossed to get it no matter what age they are. Paul did not get it. To me I have little to no respect for analytical skills on musicianship or his educational skills.

Sometimes fans of any age go to Zappa shows becuase they are expecting some Halloween Extravaganza. Same with some hard core Zappa fans. They wanted Frank then and Dweezil now to be a madman. Frank may very well be conceived and worked with the bravado of some mad scientist but those foaming viles is not what it is all about. As we all know there are notes invoolved and that ZPZ band played the stuff Authentically as possible as I ever could have immagined.

If the music at ZPZ dialated a Newbies Mind to Zappa's genious they will buy the records and come again to these shows. If not, well what can I say. They can go see some Musical Genre that speaks to their fragile eggshell mind. To me anyone who does not get Zappa is close minded to some extent.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

I want to congratulate you for your bull's-eye there, SPACEBROTHER.
But the youth market that began in the '50s it rapidly began to pick up such a ferocious cut-throat, corporate, bean-counter momentum that it's become a parody of itself today, but not something anyone can or, at this point, even try to ignore.
It's a blindly cash-driven social force that will not be ignored and it demands to be obeyed.
The stupider we are the better it works and it's no different from "Big *SPAM*" or "The Tech Industry" or any other multi-national profit-raking behemoth.
And the most bizarre irony is that it rewards you for believing that you're smart!
The very minute market for non-endorsing, not-for-hire, useless (sic!) people like Zappa will remain a fringe item of very minimal profitability.

--Bat

Interesting post script: "Big Phærma" (Here respelled.) was rendered as "*SPAM*"??? What the fuck?

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<------PhotoArtWerk by debutante_daisy http://www.facebook.com/BatchainTheMovie

Probably thought you would try to sell me something to keep my willie interested for 4 hours non-stop! Ooooer!

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Stay with me flagrantly and we'll have ecstasy for all eternity.