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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Yes a new keyboardist would help with some of these
but here is a list of some of the 80s arrangements I would like to see ZPZ perform.

Not a favorati top 11 list just a quick thought of balance between some vocals and instrumentals.
Yes I know the vocalized Envelopes was prior 1980 but why not.
I think a really good vocal version deserves to be heard.
Not that FZs band with Tommy Mars singing did a bad job but I know ZPZ can do far better
with an arrangement with vocals than any of FZs bands accomplished in the 70s.
Maybe ZPZ could do one night vocals and one night sans vocals.
Who knows a given audience may vote to hear it twice aka OSFA Sofa #1 & Sofa #2.


- Now You See It--Now You Don't
- Envelopes with Vocals
- Drowning Witch
- I Come From Nowhere
- Pick Me, I'm Clean
- Jumbo Go Away
- If Only She Woulda (Paris 80 Arrangement)
- Theme From The 3rd Movement Of Sinister Footwear
- Second Movement Sinister Footwear (MTV Halloween 81')
- Alien Orifice
- Sexual Harassment In The Workplace

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
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Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:24 pm 
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Watermelon....

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Two words:

Robert

Martin


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:33 am 
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KillUgly wrote:
Two words:Robert Martin

Two Words - Known Unknown
Sure I could have left it at that but we all know one needs to elaborate on certain things.
I will try and keep it concise to three brief paragraphs but it digs into layers of the Known and Unknown.


Funny how when some people think of specific compositions or arrangements of compositions
they may,(and the operative keyword is may) think of some Alumni.
While Robert Martin certainly was a pretty good musician in FZs band he was more
of a multi- instrumentalist vocalist that provided a fabric rhythmic keyboard backing
as opposed to the keyboardist that played all those really difficult written parts.
His predecessor Peter Wolf was given more keyboard parts that stood out.
No knock on Roberts keyboard skills, Sax work or his vocals but I just don't think FZ
put him in the position to do all those difficult written keyboard parts.

I think Robert Martin has shown he is a very good multi-instrumentalist and vocalist
but I do not think he has shown that he can play some of the more difficult written parts of FZs canon .
The really difficult parts of the arrangements from his tenure Tommy Mars did so I am unsure what Robert Martin
can do if he is auditioned as a main keyboard player and asked to handle the extremely difficult ones such as G-Spot Tornado.

That is not to say Robert is not capable but it was clear Tommy Mars handled the difficult written keyboard parts that was part of the overall arrangement.
I think Robert could definitely fill some multi-instrumentalist and vocalist role but there is a known and unknown factor.
As showed in the beginning DZs selection of Aaron Arntz was a musician who could pretty much do all that was necessary.
Just what are the job requirements being an alumni or being a musician that can handle just about anything you throw at him.
If Dweeezil is auditioning Keyboard Player/Multi- instrumentalist and wanted to ask Robert to audition it would be
interesting to see what Robert could do but in no way do I think alumni with two all beef patties special sauce so on and so on
is definitively some missing ingredient. Actually Robert is in very good shape no need for fast food beef analogies.
.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:42 am 
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Any Kind of Pain


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:15 am 
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Amnerika (with vocals - bring Napi back!)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:35 am 
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The Idiot Bastard wrote:
Amnerika (with vocals -....)


I see a trend of songs that can be done with and without vocals
such as Sofa, Envelopes & Amnerika.

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
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Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:16 am 
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Mammy Anthem

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Before Ray left I would've said Nig Biz.


Now I'll have to say Hot Plate Heaven at the Green Hotel

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:27 pm 
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OK Trend-guy, for once I agree with you. There's definitely not enough '80s material (or original Mothers) in the sets. I think they rely too much on the '73-'75 standards, and need to mix it up more. It's like Echidna's/Wash is a great piece, but I think they pretty much play it every night.

For example the free Buffalo show this summer, they opened with Apostrophe. Great song, but I couldn't help but think how much better "Mammy Anthem" would be as an instr. opener.
I think in the five shows I've seen from '06-'09, the only '80s songs I've heard were What's New In Baltimore, Doreen & G-Spot Tornado. To me it seems like they're playing it safe with the OS/' & Roxy/OSFA stuff over and over. Maybe DZ thinks too much '80s material might alienate casual fans.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
I think Robert Martin has shown he is a very good multi-instrumentalist and vocalist
but I do not think he has shown that he can play some of the more difficult written parts of FZs canon .


YCDTOSA vol. 4: Black Page ('84 version)

Bobby Martin - Sax

Suck it down.

-MGB


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Stactup wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
I think Robert Martin has shown he is a very good multi-instrumentalist and vocalist
but I do not think he has shown that he can play some of the more difficult written parts of FZs canon .


YCDTOSA vol. 4: Black Page ('84 version)

Bobby Martin - Sax

Suck it down.

-MGB


Well that certainly is a fine example that shows Bobby's diversity where his Sax work certainly helped out
what the 1984 band had to offer but overall the orchestral timbre of the 1984 arrangements were a bit of a
Coors Light of the touring ensembles. Unfortunately I just do not like the keyboard sample that is in The Black Page.
Who knows maybe some given fan wants Allan Zavod in ZPZ.
It's all too tin man Wizzard Of Oz where everything is painted in clinky silver.
I believe I saw 13 shows that tour and for my taste from all the previous tours
I had seen 78',80' & 81' as many I preferred those arrangements but this is what FZ gave us.
FZ gave us so many different forms of arrangements but if a fan is looking to hear a keyboard player do all those
parts that fr example George Duke & Tommy Mars gave us I just don't automatically see Bobby Martin playing all those parts.
The operative keyword is FZ gave us so many different tyes of arrangements and I think Dweezil has shown he is very capable
of hiring and arranging.

I think FZ was experimenting with all this new digital technology in 1984 and regardless of great vocals and guitar work the timbre
of that keyboard instrumentation and digital drums is a bit too cold compared to many other tours.
Even 1988 with that big horn section lacked some warmth because some digital technologies
was cold in 1988 just as it was in 1984. ZPZ has already shown their 1984 arrangements sound a galaxy better
that what FZs band gave us. Let's be fair and just chalk it up to technology limitations in 1984.
It would be interesting to see a master list of Samples that had been used but each sample had it's limitations compared
to the acoustic palate of the real thing that FZ could not afford to tour with. It was lots of fun but the orchestral timbre was cold and flat.
If ZPZ does some more 1984 arrangements we will finally hear the 1984 arrangements sounding good.
Even if samples are used they sound so much better today.

I am not knocking on Bobby's contributions but overall I view his efforts as a multi- instrumentalist and vocalist
as opposed to a keyboard player with heavy duty chops to play mass quantities of the difficult written parts
of what had been done with a thick palate in the overall previously documented live & studio MIX.
His sax, keyboards and vocals in 1981 was enough to show me he was a great addition to FZs band but Tommy Mars Keyboard work is what stood out as the dominant player of written parts. Bobby certainly played some interesting keyboard arrangements but off the cuff by no means is there an immediate alumni ingredient that ZPZ has not already shown was accomplished with Zero Alumni Quotient.

If and when any given alumni should be a part of ZPZ certainly I will look at that optimistically.
Yes Bobby Martin is an alumni that has a diverse set of talents but in no way am I sitting here
thinking that Bobby MArtin is some missing ingredient in ZPZs live performances.
I would be willing to optimistically hear what Bobby could do.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:34 pm 
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I wasn't trying to weigh in on the argument regarding ZPZ. I don't really give a fuck what they do. It became obvious to me early on that they were not going to be selling a product I would be interested in. ...but that's another topic.

I just took offense to the notion that Bobby can't play. There's plenty of documentation proving that he is actually pretty bitchin'.

Furthermore, I'd like to say that one of the most exciting thing about an FZ band is how the, um, "less able" members of the band, or rather, the guys he hired for purely their vocal abilities, were able to whip out some of the more difficult parts on occasion. For example, Napoleon's flute on "Inca Roads" or "Uncle Meat", the guitar riff from "What's New" on Does Humor (not sure if it's Ike or Ray), and Bobby Martin's performances on several '81, '81, and '84 numbers ("Alien Orifice", "Black Page"...). Hearing Arthur Barrow busting out the main "Alfonso" melody gives me way more of a thrill than hearing Steve Vai play "Drowning Witch". Why? Steve, whose playing I don't exactly give a shit about, carries a "virtuoso" aesthetic. We expect him to play anything and everything. Artie, who I really thing is the bee's knees, is some dude in the background with an enormous bass and a cheesy haircut. "What the fuck did that bastard just play?!? Fuck!" Get it?

One more thing: I can't find one documented event of Adrien Belew playing anything on the guitar worth mentioning during an FZ show. I consider this ironic, seeing as he now has a reputation for being a big, tough, prog-rock badass.

A conversation* between me and a big King Crimson fan who knew nothing about FZ: (we're watching Baby Snakes)

Crimson Fan: "Whoa! Belew! Bitchin'! Skip ahead to a part where he plays something awesome on the guitar!"
Me: "Um.... He mostly sings in this band..."
CF: "What the fuck?!?"
Me: "Well, compared to the rest of these guys, Belew isn't exactly a big shot."
CF: "Fuck you."

*= paraphrased


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:59 am 
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Stactup wrote:
I wasn't trying to weigh in on the argument regarding ZPZ. I don't really give a fuck what they do.

TOPIC ALERT "ZPZ 80s Requests (Spinal Tap 11)"
So you come to this ZPZ Topic all Stacup.

For the fortunate ones in this world that do indeed groove to ZPZ they optimistically look at the possibilities of performance
from FZs canon. We are seeing an evolution of the finest performances of FZs music.
The departure of a keyboard player in 2009 modified the arrangements a bit. Fortunately the arranging and performance skill sets
of DZ & Company have prevailed where they redefined this so called less able analogy.
Every band member in FZs bands had a given part of an arrangement where it is all part of the arrangement
of a composition.

You state you don't give a fuck what they do but their are people that feel as fortunate as ever
that ZPZ is out doing what they do. My internal clock tells me many exciting FZ & ZPZ projects are in the works
and this individually or collectively would be FZs idea of a good time.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:13 pm 
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ZpZ does not take advantage of their primary advantage, which is that they are NOT FZ. What I mean is that, while FZ had to play for an audience of meatheads screaming "DINAH-MOE HUMM!!!", ZpZ is playing, generally, for an audience that has been, for the most part, exposed to the entire catalog. They don't need to be playing FUCKING "JOE'S GARAGE" for Christ's sake! Yeah, an FZ show had some filler in it; some "fan favorites," if you will. ZpZ has no such obligation, AND YET they play them anyway.

I don't NEED to hear "I'm the Slime" with a shitty* solo in it. If were to see the finest Zappa cover band money can buy, I would do so because I want to know what it feels like to hear "Moggio" played so loud I could feel the bass rattle my testicles. Do I need to elaborate further? Sure. ZpZ takes on some heavy tasks, but so far as I can tell, the only thing they've really taken on that was worth the price of admission is "G-Spot Tornado", a song Frank never performed with a rock band. But, fuck. Is it worth sitting through a night of "Bamboozled By Love"s?

And that brings me to an even more discouraging point: When Frank played "Keep it Greasy," he did it with a group of musicians who could make it interesting. ZpZ are, at best, REPLICANTS. Joe Travers is not Vinnie Coliauta. Got me?

And finally, while I appreciate the fact that ZpZ is not out there trying to invent new arrangements of Zappa tunes, I hate the fact that they always seem to play the least interesting version of everything they do. PLAY THE FUCKING '84 "BAMBOOZLED" IF YOU'RE GONNA DO IT! PLAY THE '82 "ZOMBY WOOF'! THE '82 "TELL ME YOU LOVE ME"! NOT THE SLOW-ASS '71 VERSION! FUCK!

But, overall, I agree with your thesis. They should be playing more '80s material... Whatever.

ARGH!

* = Let's not lie to ourselves. The best Dweezil solo is 85% as good as the worst Frank solo.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Stactup wrote:

And finally, while I appreciate the fact that ZpZ is not out there trying to invent new arrangements of Zappa tunes, I hate the fact that they always seem to play the least interesting version of everything they do.
PLAY THE FUCKING '84 "BAMBOOZLED" IF YOU'RE GONNA DO IT!


You see you are either asleep at the wheel or you are not even in the car.
Please walk and turn, stand on one leg, touch your finger to your nose, then finally the Rhomberg Balance Test.

ZPZ have been doing a hybrid arrangement of Bamboozled By Love that does include several
of FZs touring arrangements including the 1984 Owner of a Lonely Heart motif.

The 2008 & 2009 ZPZ arrangements pound for pound blow Zappa's released versions away
because they take a variety of FZs live arrangements from several tours that show the progression of the song
over the life of FZs many touring versions. The song can get down right slow righteous blues as deep and dark
as any blues song ever sung by any human or fast passed in your face Trevor Rabin ejectamenta.

Stick around they have only been touring a handful of years.
The compositions and arrangement possibilities are endless.
I have seen enough of FZ shows and ZPZ shows to realize DZs
solos are more than just in the ball park but are occupying the same
intergalactic realm that FZs thrived on for quite some time.

If and when DZ puts together a SUAPYG form of a project from these tours
fans that do not have the opportunity to see as many shows as I have or hear
that many Official tapes will then understand just how far DZ has taken his guitar work.

And your putting down tone of some of the more traditional popular tunes lacks taste of FZs overall
body of work. Even when FZ was alive time and time again some people enjoy that material and they never liked
the more so called serious music. FZ does not have a played out Roundabout in his catalog.
The YCFOSA Camarilo Brillo was the first song played on that tour.
The released version from that show that was made available to all YCFOSA attendees is the finest live version of Camarillo Brillo I have ever heard.
Yes I do specifically think my hair raises in the back of my head when FZ sings live in Baby Snakes such as the
"And so she wandered Through the door-way" section and how the nature of that segues into Muffin Man
but the overall performance by ZPZ is as good god damn it as that song ever got live.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Well, okay. Whatever. Maybe they play the "Owner/Heart" thing... That's not even, really, what I meant. '84 Bamboozled = Vocal harmonies, Speed, Attitude... and yes, Yes.

Most points remain.

Man, who cares about an amazing "Camarillo Brillo?" I have better ways to spend my time. Don't get me wrong. FZ is my hero, but the reasons why he is my hero could probably fit on 6 or 7 CDs. "Camarillo Brillo*" would not be on any of them.

* = FYI. Favorite "C.B.": YCDTOSA vol. 6, '84 band.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:51 pm 
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stactup wrote:
...The best Dweezil solo is 85% as good as the worst Frank solo.
    rather generous, 15% max

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Stactup wrote:
Well, okay. Whatever. Maybe they play the "Owner/Heart" thing... That's not even, really, what I meant. '84 Bamboozled = Vocal harmonies, Speed, Attitude... and yes, Yes.

Most points remain.

Man, who cares about an amazing "Camarillo Brillo?" I have better ways to spend my time. Don't get me wrong. FZ is my hero, but the reasons why he is my hero could probably fit on 6 or 7 CDs. "Camarillo Brillo*" would not be on any of them.

* = FYI. Favorite "C.B.": YCDTOSA vol. 6, '84 band.


I only used Camarllo Brillo as an example as that was the first song on the YCFOSA Tour
and being that song was played so many times live by FZ bands and that ZPZs version clearly outshines
so many of FZ live performances I think it shows some extreme level of aptitude on ZPZs part.
But then again ZPZs Billy The Mountain Blows away JABFLA.
Surely in performance aptitude, performance fidelity and playback fidelity many of these these recordings
sound better than many FZs shows I attended or the albums he released.
Just as Stravisnky's The Rite Of Spring may be performed and recorded better in 2009 than on it's premier May 21, 1913.
The same thing is now happening with FZs music and this is not the Zappa Olympics. It's about the evolution
of the composers music definitively using the blueprints he left for performance.
Maybe a perfect Drowning Witch without FZ need for massive edits from several shows because the 1981 band could never get it 100% right is coming our way live.
But their is no reason to stop their for G-Spot and Dog Meat are several fine examples of some of FZs more demanding numbers.

You want to be all cynical on ZPZ fine but why bother participating in this topic.
You seem to have ZPZ painted into some little box.
I look at the aptitude of ZPZ in a short time and what I perceive they have the ability to achieve over the next ten years is limitless.
Why not be eager for a live ZPZ performance of Put A Motor in Yourself, Little House I Used To Live In, The Air or Solitude
Certainly if FZ being some hero based on 6 or 7 CDs you certainly show a lack of aptitude
of appreciation for the canon as some of the newbies.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:11 am 
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Frank Zappa wrote:
If a person doesn't feel cynical, then they are out of phase with the 20th century. Being cynical is the only way of dealing with modern civilization, you can't just swallow it all.


I, unlike almost everybody else here, have some respect for you, Gary. I know you have a lot of knowledge on these subjects and, for the most part, I tend to agree with you on matters of taste regarding the catalog. I don't really want to argue about this (I never did), but let me just say this:

We could have been getting "Little House...," "Put a Motor...", "The Air", "Drowning Witch", "Envelopes", "Sinister Footwear II", "Moggio", "The Evil Prince", and anything else you could imagine, from the very beginning. If that were the case, I would have been at the front of the line. I just don't see any reason not to play the best of the best since the band is capable and none of us are getting any younger. What reason could there be? To me, night of "Yellow Snow"s and "I'm the Slime"s is a night of nostalgia, rather than a night of the finest music ever played by rock musicians.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Stactup wrote:
Frank Zappa wrote:
If a person doesn't feel cynical, then they are out of phase with the 20th century. Being cynical is the only way of dealing with modern civilization, you can't just swallow it all.


I, unlike almost everybody else here, have some respect for you, Gary. I know you have a lot of knowledge on these subjects and, for the most part, I tend to agree with you on matters of taste regarding the catalog. I don't really want to argue about this (I never did), but let me just say this:

We could have been getting "Little House...," "Put a Motor...", "The Air", "Drowning Witch", "Envelopes", "Sinister Footwear II", "Moggio", "The Evil Prince", and anything else you could imagine, from the very beginning. If that were the case, I would have been at the front of the line. I just don't see any reason not to play the best of the best since the band is capable and none of us are getting any younger. What reason could there be? To me, night of "Yellow Snow"s and "I'm the Slime"s is a night of nostalgia, rather than a night of the finest music ever played by rock musicians.


I think the show is about a diverse set of compositions and arrangements from FZs canon
that are performed for old and new fans. If a show was entirely of the so called serious music
I just don't think the support would be there and that the context of the show would follow
what a live Zappa show normally is. Of the YCFOSA shows just how many groupings of 250-400 fans
had Dog Meat as a song selection? When you look at the body of work and arrangements that
ZPZ have presented in such a short period of time and at the level of competence it is as remarkable
as any band performing any music in that period of time.

Let's hope it all continues to evolve and demand keeps ZPZ out there touring.
If Little House...," "Put a Motor...", "The Air", "Drowning Witch", "Envelopes", "Sinister Footwear II", "Moggio", "The Evil Prince"
is what you want to hear keep requesting that. Next time I talk to Dweezil I will suggest a Fan Request Area for
songs and given arrangements. Who knows maybe a Zappa PLays Zappa Serious Music Tour could come down the line
or does that sound too much like a Bootleg.

The economy has not been all that well and record sales in the industry are down in very high numbers.
Then we have the Boycott Brigade. For the hard core fans and anyone interested it is a use it or loose it scenario.
I just don't think the likelihood of any other band will be as competent as ZPZ.
If and when ZPZ is not out their the cover bands just lack much of the level of professional aptitude.
ZPZ is engulfed into the composer. They have invested so much time, are extremely talented and have
the proper tools. Even Band From Utopia which was pretty good lacked some special sauce ZPZ applies to the compositions.
Yes some really remarkable shows happen now and then such as Ensembles adn ever an occasional cover band
does show some form of merit but no group of musicians have steafast shown teh aptitude and progress
of digging as deep intoFZs canon as ZPZ.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:57 pm 
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My dream is nothing but Osmond covers by ZPZ. Hudson Brothers covers encore.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
It's about the evolution
of the composers music definitively using the blueprints he left for performance.


Bullshit. If FZ were still alive and touring, his music and arrangements would still be evolving. Other than the orchestral scores, there are no definitive blueprints for FZ's music. It seems like you view FZ's canon in classical terms, but the canon is much closer to jazz in its flexibility/plasticity as opposed to classical rigidity.

Is it really evolution if a band merely apes what FZ and his bands did? Time for you to eat the banana.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:41 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
It's about the evolution
of the composers music definitively using the blueprints he left for performance.


Bullshit. If FZ were still alive and touring, his music and arrangements would still be evolving. Other than the orchestral scores, there are no definitive blueprints for FZ's music. It seems like you view FZ's canon in classical terms, but the canon is much closer to jazz in its flexibility/plasticity as opposed to classical rigidity.

Is it really evolution if a band merely apes what FZ and his bands did? Time for you to eat the banana.


Much closer to Jazz what a joke.
FZ was an American Composer and a Pioneer of Thought

here is an FZ thought for you.
"Jazz is not dead it just smells funny"

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Thank you for proving once again that you do not understand jazz or FZ's music at all. Yes, he was American, but there are many other American musical pioneers, many of whom influenced Frank.

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