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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:58 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Thank you for proving once again that you do not understand jazz or FZ's music at all. Yes, he was American, but there are many other American musical pioneers, many of whom influenced Frank.


The terms American Composer and Pioneer Of Thought
are common bookends of the epitaph that is
the life of Frank Zappa.

Your comment is so clueless as is your knowledge of Zappa's canon.
It's not a matter of salt and pepper it's a matter of ignorance.
Jazz was something Frank had little to zero work model of.
While he certainly hired and had some Jazz musicians guest spot in his bands
Franks muse was clearly an American Composer and a Pioneer Of Thought

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Thank you for proving once again that you do not understand jazz or FZ's music at all. Yes, he was American, but there are many other American musical pioneers, many of whom influenced Frank.


The terms American Composer and Pioneer Of Thought
are common bookends of the epitaph that is
the life of Frank Zappa.

Your comment is so clueless as is your knowledge of Zappa's canon.
It's not a matter of salt and pepper it's a matter of ignorance.
Jazz was something Frank had little to zero work model of.
While he certainly hired and had some Jazz musicians guest spot in his bands
Franks muse was clearly an American Composer and a Pioneer Of Thought


http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=27819
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 35678.html
http://www.afka.net/Articles/1991-07_DB.htm

Read it and weep, motherfucker. I know much more about music than you ever will, and so did Frank.

Jazz aspects of FZ:
--improv
--modal soloing
--odd time signatures
--conceptual continuity of melodies (look at Miles and how certain motifs pop up again and again)
--"Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" !!
Need I go on?

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Last edited by FalseDichotomy on Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:14 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Thank you for proving once again that you do not understand jazz or FZ's music at all. Yes, he was American, but there are many other American musical pioneers, many of whom influenced Frank.


The terms American Composer and Pioneer Of Thought
are common bookends of the epitaph that is
the life of Frank Zappa.

Your comment is so clueless as is your knowledge of Zappa's canon.
It's not a matter of salt and pepper it's a matter of ignorance.
Jazz was something Frank had little to zero work model of.
While he certainly hired and had some Jazz musicians guest spot in his bands
Franks muse was clearly an American Composer and a Pioneer Of Thought


http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=27819
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 35678.html

Read it and weep, motherfucker. I know much more about music than you ever will, and so did Frank.

Jazz aspects of FZ:
--improv
--modal soloing
--odd time signatures
--conceptual continuity of melodies (look at Miles and how certain motifs pop up again and again)

Need I go on?


Oh how the Jazz world tries to fit Zappa into their mold.
I don;t think so and certainly that ideology was not FZs idea of a good time.

_________________
Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Pray tell, what would that ideology be? Be specific.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:20 pm 
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This conversation is bullshit. Trying to Zappa was this or that (jazz or classical) is pointless. It doesn't matter. He did what he did. Who cares about categorization? If you like it, it's bitchin', if you don't it sucks... or however the quote goes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:08 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
It's about the evolution
of the composers music definitively using the blueprints he left for performance.


Bullshit. If FZ were still alive and touring, his music and arrangements would still be evolving. Other than the orchestral scores, there are no definitive blueprints for FZ's music. It seems like you view FZ's canon in classical terms, but the canon is much closer to jazz in its flexibility/plasticity as opposed to classical rigidity.

Is it really evolution if a band merely apes what FZ and his bands did? Time for you to eat the banana.

Stactup wrote:
This conversation is bullshit. Trying to Zappa was this or that (jazz or classical) is pointless. It doesn't matter. He did what he did. Who cares about categorization? If you like it, it's bitchin', if you don't it sucks... or however the quote goes.

I like this! Of course a blueprint isn't fixed in stone except in architecture. Of course the arrangements will evolve and Trendy so often tells us how much ZPZ has been doing just that, blablabla. Of course FZ joked about jazz. Of course FZ utilized many tools of the jazz idiom.
I do however have respect for categorization. Not fixed laws, but opinions, theories, ideas, and preferences, as these things are really where music comes from. Very few artists ever got away with "just doing it".
So, what category was FZ? To be bulletproof and succint, FZ's category was FZ. Not many artists inhabit their own genre, so there is merit to the statement. But, as much as FZ could be thought of as an island, he didn't drop out of nowhere. FZ utilized numerous influences.

To quote Greg Russo in his book Cosmik Debris:
"His music touches on elements of classical, jazz, rock, R&B, doo-wop, country, polka, reggae, soul, punk, swing, pop, new wave, Broadway, avant-gare and pure noise to achieve its desired effect."


Alot of postings give off the jist that music is music, so turn off the brain and float downstream. This can be great and perhaps the most visceral and open-minded experience one can have while listening. I believe that excessive thinking while listening CAN inhibit reception. But, to then vow to never think about the relationships between composers, performers, their constructions, styles, tones and evolutions would lose much of what intrigues me in music. I like to think about how music arrived to be what it is and where it can potentially go from here.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:05 am 
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Stactup wrote:
This conversation is bullshit. Trying to Zappa was this or that (jazz or classical) is pointless. It doesn't matter. He did what he did. Who cares about categorization? If you like it, it's bitchin', if you don't it sucks... or however the quote goes.


Breath deep the gathering gloom by no means is Frank Zappa American Composer an Illusion.
I think you make an interesting point and provides some context. I have heard some
interviews and read some books that at times try to make a strong case FZ was a Jazz artist
and I think this is a disservice to FZs overall work process in anyone attempting in labeling FZ
a Jazz artist.

When I say American Composer this does not categorize Frank Zappa's Canon in the Classical realm
but Frank was an American Composer as much as Igor Stravisnky was a Russian Composer.

Suggested Listening

Frank Zappa - American Composer

http://www.zappa.com/stufftoget/audio/index.html

_________________
Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:35 pm
Posts: 1259
Location: Ohio
Stactup wrote:
This conversation is bullshit. Trying to Zappa was this or that (jazz or classical) is pointless. It doesn't matter. He did what he did. Who cares about categorization? If you like it, it's bitchin', if you don't it sucks... or however the quote goes.


Please go back and read my first post again. I was not saying that FZ was a jazz artist. I said that (excluding orchestral works) his musical structures have more in common with jazz than classical because they are more open to rearrangement.

Trendy likes to make it seem that FZ invented everything he did from whole cloth, that all his music sprung from his forehead like Athena being birthed by Zeus. My point is that FZ was influenced by many things, including jazz. FZ didn't invent the II-V-I chord progression, but he used it nonetheless. What is genius is how FZ managed to combine genres and take them farther than most other artists.

To me, comparing FZ to Duke Ellington or Miles Davis is not a slight or an insult. It's another way of connecting the dots to learn more about FZ's music, and music in general.

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