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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:07 am 
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It's clear that the LA Philharmonic InsideOUT webpage and mailer is not promoting a rock band.
http://www.laphil.com/tickets/insideout-10th-anniversary-celebration

I want to reiterate that all promotion for this world premier event in LA has dictated that the music is more-so about the ORCHESTRA, CHORAL GROUP and SOLISTS than any traditional thought of a so called rock band that at one time had a configuration of The Mothers at the specific time that the film/record was made. I don't think it is important to place large sums of energy into weather the musicians that accompany the TBA soloists involved is 1 or 8 amplified or loud acoustic instruments.

Pointedly the soloists are many characters that are played by vocalists. The characters in the 13 suites were Rance Muhammitz, Flo & Eddie, Jeff's Good Conscience, Jeff's Bad Conscience, The Rock & Roll Interviewer and The Girl. How many more characters are in the original score???? Hmmm There could be more or less than what appeared in the movie. Having not read FZs original score I think that it is fair to state that one should not focus on perceptions of the literal rock performance side that had been seen in the film and heard on the LP. While the story is about what happens with life on the road with a rock band, the original score and the adapted score may not necessarily overtly represent large sums of rock performance in the program.

The Mothers just what they were at the time of the recording of the film/record. In 1970 Frank Zappa was very much in a state of writing for having flexible band sizes. Some getting smaller, so I have no problem having smaller amplified dynamics instrumentation core to go along with an orchestra and chorale group. Just listen to interviews at the time Hot Rats was recorded and promoted. Frank was talking about the flexibility of working with various sized ensembles. I have no problem pondering the thought that there will be more characters than had appeared in the 13 suites back in 2000 but that is all guessing. Surely there can also be a number of musicians that play traditional rock and jazz instrumentation but as Gail Zappa had stated the orchestra will be doing more so whatever amount of musicianship that is added to the orchestra and choral group I just don't think Rock Band with a big canon ball splash off the 30 Meter diving platform. My gut feeling is a drummer and some other instrumentation to accent the soloist themes and some other parts.

While the orchestra, deservedly so, will be doing more I still think there is room for some instrumentation within the soloist portion of the program. I expect some of these may very well be some well known musicians. I am just not thinking of a rock band that rocks out to Magic Fingers with a loud guitar solo happening. If fans want to analyse the movie and album they can do so. They can get all analytical on each and every so called "rock number" in the movie and 2LP and how that will play out. They can figure out the instrumentation and get down with the imagination of the imaginer. Have fun...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:54 am 
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Why do you continue to do this Trendy? While it is always fascinating to find out what you perceive to be "clear", it is annoying at best for you to say that there won't be a rock band and then contradict yourself a couple paragraphs later...

Trendmonger wrote:
It's clear that the LA Philharmonic InsideOUT webpage and mailer is not promoting a rock band.....

...so I have no problem having smaller amplified dynamics instrumentation core to go along with an orchestra and chorale group...

I like how you look at an orchestra and then look at a portion of that and think: "I'll call that an 'instrumentation core' just so that I don't have to say the words 'rock band' because that would be bad." Hilarious.
So, anyone know who will be playing drums, bass, keyboards and guitar?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:37 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
for you to say that there won't be a rock band and then contradict yourself..



I am not contradicting myself.

I think the point is to get away from the nomenclature of "Rock Band". If you want to continue to use the term rock band go ahead and do so. I think the story in 200 Motels is about a rock band but the score is very much more-so about an orchestra, choral group and soloists carrying out the score. What the Mothers Of Invention were and recorded in the film and movie seems to be perceived more-so about some given rock instrumentation set than what the score is about.

Throughout the thread I gave examples of how the event is being produced will showcase how the orchestra is doing more;
Gail Zappa's commentary, the editorial side of the Variety article earlier this year spoke of this. How the orchestra is doing more...that was a point in the article, of what was to come in the world premier.

We can see that Orchestra Doing More of his so called serious music has been happening quite a bit in the new millennium.
200 Motels: The 13 Suites(Nederlands Philharmonisch Orkest and Cappella Amsterdam), Zappa and the Emerging American Composer(American Composers Orchestra), Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions(Ensemble Moderne). These are all examples of the orchestra doing more. Having attended one of these events and owning a copy of Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions, it is obvious how the orchestra doing more is part of these adaptations. Give a close listen to Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions, there are some hidden clues from 200 Motels that are not listed in the liner notes.

From my perspective how many rock musicians will be up there on the stage is not part of focal point of the event. Long ago a friend of mine informed me he would be involved and to this date I just don't overtly think rock band. My view is that any instrumentation would attenuate some parts that are in the score than represent a hard rock ensemble that appears on given numbers.

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Last edited by Trendmonger on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:44 am 
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There ya go with "I have a friend", but then nothing more. It is an asshole thing to say "I know something you don't know, but won't tell you what it is." If you know something about the performance that you are willing to share, great, have at it. But either you don't have any idea what will happen or you promised someone that you won't give out any details. I think its the former, but either way, stop being an asshole just spewing shit all over the place.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:03 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
There ya go with "I have a friend", but then nothing more. It is an asshole thing to say "I know something you don't know, but won't tell you what it is." If you know something about the performance that you are willing to share, great, have at it. But either you don't have any idea what will happen or you promised someone that you won't give out any details. I think its the former, but either way, stop being an asshole just spewing shit all over the place.


I'll be candour with you. Your perception on why I choose not to reveal one given musician has nothing to do with what you may think. It's got nothing to do with promises and withholding. So much about the production has been revealing itself quite nicely. I am happy to let the production unfold itself from official channels. I am specifically keeping conversation to dialogue of press promo clippings, official releases of Zappa orchestral works and historical facts. You never see me spilling the beans around here or at Dwseezil's site. It's just not how I operate. There are no beans. You are so far off base with making a game; out of what you think I know, or what you think I don't know.... it's preposterous.

The Billboard and Variety articles are quite informative. How the Orchestra Is Doing More,, that speaks of what has been happening with orchestra's performing FZs works. I think that is where you should focus the imagination of the imaginer kind of philosophy-mongering. ....


Why supposed knowledgeable fans need to know so much about the "perceived rock band role" that the Mothers played is just too much out of the scope at this point. The instrumentation from that so called rock band model is far more flexible than you can imagine. The composer showed that was flexible and that the Mothers were what they were at the moment of the recording of the film/record. It's even spoken of on the LP credits, and I quote "The MOTHERS on this particular occasion" Frank wrote the score before that band and the character Jeff only shows you a part of that flexibility. Even Ringo Starr could play Frank Zappa but who knows if the Frank Zappa character role was even a part of the original score. There were so many changes happening with who played what character roles. That has always been the history...There should be no confusion that the character roles and so called rock instrumentation are flexible.... but knows maybe as he originally was cast for the film, one could imagine that Jeff Beck will show up and play Lucy this time.

edit:Speaking about the Jeff character and but also, just in case you were not aware "Does This Kind Of Life Look Interesting To You?" was a hidden track on Greggery Peccary & Other Persuasions CD.

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Last edited by Trendmonger on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:26 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:

I'll be candour with you.


No you won't. That statement is nonsense. You might say that you will be candid, but you won't.

Trendmonger wrote:
Your perception on why I choose not to reveal one given musician has nothing to do with what you may think.

That statement actually makes less sense than the previous one.

Trendmonger wrote:
...The instrumentation from that so called rock band model is far more flexible than you can imagine...

You have no idea what I imagine. Stop being an asshole and assuming so.

Trendmonger wrote:
a bunch more shit


Blablabla... what is the point of this shit? None of us know what is going to happen, including you! You are still being an asshole. Can you picture yourself not being an asshole? Try it, then make it real. Please.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:51 am 
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Oh, btw, I have to admit it is kinda funny that you are hoping that Jeff Beck has sex on stage with Miss Lucy during the performance. Credit where its due.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Let's make it clear. I am in no way stating of of any hopes for who plays any character role on the To Be Determined soloist(s) agenda. I am more-so talking about the history of the soloist roles. There is an interesting list of those roles and who was to play them when the film was made. You can add Pete Townsend, Mick Jagger, Herb Cohen and Meredith Monk.

Here we are less than 6 weeks from the concert and the soloists have not been published. I am not surprised nor does it detract from my interest. I am confident that whoever plays those roles will be done well but how this is all playing out is quite what I expected. I feel no different in whatever instrumentation is added to the philharmonic and chorale group.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:15 pm 
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You sure do want to be clear... but you are anything but.
Otherwise, why in the world would you write a post trying so very hard to state clearly that your message is: Absolutely Nothing. Nothing is what you want! Again, you post that you have no interest in the details of the project. I think you actually do, but nothing in your post indicates anything but a lack of interest or hope.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:38 am 
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Hey! Ringo Starr's All Star tour doesn't start until Oct. 29th!

Just sayin.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:46 am 
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coevad wrote:
Hey! Ringo Starr's All Star tour doesn't start until Oct. 29th!

Just sayin.


It's going to be interesting to see how the character roles play themselves out. From looking at the Movie & LP, there are many unknowns of all the character roles that were in FZs original score, and but also what will transpire in the adaptation. I still think of character roles as play-like roles that actors sing, sprechesang or actually use spoken words to dramatize things on a live stage. They may or may not be a part of a chorale group. The characters are not necessarily in the role of a musician with an instrument in his hands. He may have a big wheel, a magic lamp or a tape recorder with a microphone in his hands if anyone gets my drift. Video projection will be playing a role in the production, so that whole side of the drama side of the story, how the drama moves, that can be painted by countless video things going on, so much can be done live on-stage in the video domain. Once again, any so called rock-musicians may very well not be the exact instrumentation that the Mothers were at the time of the making of the film/LP.

Case in point is Hutchentoot. When FZ wrote Hutchentoot he had specific instrumentation written in the score. When some of the songs from Hutchentoot were released on Sleep Dirt, both versions, the instrumental and those with vocals, the instrumentation on Sleep Dirt is quite different than what appears in FZs original score for Hutchentoot.

I think The Mothers just were who they were at the time of the film/LP. As far as the musicianship of the so-called rock side of 200 Motels, the so called-rock instrumentation seems just as adaptable as some of the character roles were at the time of the making of the film. I think that Gail will get the premier done as close to the score as the composers design yet leave room for the orchestra to do more. Do I expect the character roles to develop beyond the 13 suites? That's possible. Certainly there are a number of character roles we did not see in the 13 suites. How that develops will be interesting. I just think more along the lines of characters in a score than rock band instrumentation. I'm confident that whatever added musicianship to the orchestra and chorale group will work out fine...... The progress of orchestra's handling FZs work has advanced, and that's not to equate those advances into turning a so called rock-number into elevator Zappa music.

.....What we do know is that the 200 Motels: The 13 Suites did not include all the characters that were in the movie. That kind of adaptation can make one ponder it further where how many character roles never made it, or yes added, to the film. The official releases and live performances that have had their moments in history, so much is unknown as how that exactly compares to FZs original score. My main point is this is a world premier of 200 Motels in it's entirety... an adaptation that will have the orchestra doing more. Let's not get fooled by overt rock performances in the production.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:17 am 
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How many ways can one continue to say nothing? Many more than I previously thought anyway.

To recap:
1. Trendy has let it be known that he knows someone who has something, somehow, to do with the production, but will not tell the details. This adds up to: nothing.
2. There won't be a rock band playing with the orchestra, just the members of a rock band, drums, bass, keyboards and guitar. To trendy, the rock band adds up to: nothing.
3. He doesn't care who performs, what they perform, how its performed, what context it will be performed, or how FZ fits into it, but it will be perfect no matter what. What does he care about the production? Nothing.

OK, so now that we have that out of the way... anyone know any actual details of the production beyond Trendy's blatherings?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:16 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
I have to admit it is kinda funny that you are hoping that Jeff Beck has sex on stage with Miss Lucy during the performance.

With all due respect to Jeff Beck, it really should be Punky Meadows who has sex with Miss Lucy on stage during the performance. For obvious reasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:36 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
How many ways can one continue to say nothing? Many more than I previously thought anyway.

To recap:
1. Trendy has let it be known that he knows someone who has something, somehow, to do with the production, but will not tell the details. This adds up to: nothing.
2. There won't be a rock band playing with the orchestra, just the members of a rock band, drums, bass, keyboards and guitar. To trendy, the rock band adds up to: nothing.
3. He doesn't care who performs, what they perform, how its performed, what context it will be performed, or how FZ fits into it, but it will be perfect no matter what. What does he care about the production? Nothing.

OK, so now that we have that out of the way... anyone know any actual details of the production beyond Trendy's blatherings?


The Forum Killed Arkay does not speak on my behalf. How he describes, chooses to recap my commentary is way out to lunch. Folks of the likes of The Forum Killed Arkay is one fine reason as to why I do not share any of the so called details that I am aware of. Another fine reason is that it is not my place to reveal any so called detail that is presently published as To Be Determined.

I point to facts that are published and use that as details to spark the conversation. The Forum Killed Arkay seems to know little or talk little to nothing of the history of 200 Motels. He's searching and can not find answers that are published. Whatever the To Be Determined list of Soloists will be? What they will be I am confident in what Gail puts together but so much more about the production has already been revealed than worrying about a To Be Determined list that will include Soloists and a few so called rock musicians on the side.. I care not to share any of the so called To Be Determined folks. Let the imagination of the imaginer guide any fan in that regard. Either that or folks can argue about the endless possibilities of some To Be Determined list. Let's just leave that at that and speak of the production details that have most certainly been revealed. Research and Destroy!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:57 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
I care not to share any of the so called To Be Determined folks.

I'm quite sure it's nobody I give a shit about. Unless it's somebody who is extremely fluid. Like Punky Meadows.

edited for maximum sensitivity


Last edited by downer mydnyte on Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Trendy -

Please stop being an asshole. I really hope that some day you learn how to do that.
I hate everything you stand for, but am just this side of hating YOU. You, on the other hand, clearly hate me and many people of this forum, probably for making fun of your horrible writing. Your writing asks for it. I hope you learn to value other people's writing half as much as you value your own worthless drivel.

To recap (for me this time):

1. I don't care what your perspective on this show is. Occasionally, maybe 0.3% of your posts or so, you say something worthwhile. I have read enough of your crap on this performance to be sure that you have nothing to contribute.

2. You have so many half-baked FZ theories that you mix up on purpose in an attempt to look cool that you always end up looking foolish.

3. You really do know a lot of FZ facts... try to understand them before posting rather than just stating them without thinking, because your FZ knowledge is all botched up. You mix facts with nonsense to your own detriment.

4. When I am asking for info on the 200 Motels performance, I am asking ANYONE EXCEPT YOU. The only things of interest you have provided are boiler plate links and the idea that Jeff Beck should get down with Miss Lucy. The links, I appreciate. The pages worth of drivel just serve to drive away any FZ fans who might otherwise be interested in talking about this important FZ event that you are pissing all over.

Sincerely,
- RK

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:44 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
It sure will be. Only 2 left. That's awesome.

Another batch o' tickets are up. Some are right in front of me.

https://oss.ticketmaster.com/html/outsi ... 3DEPH1023E

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:47 pm 
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You just disturbed me in my retirement with this shit:

Trendmonger wrote:
[…] Case in point is Hutchentoot. When FZ wrote Hutchentoot he had specific instrumentation written in the score. When some of the songs from Hutchentoot were released on Sleep Dirt, both versions, the instrumental and those with vocals, the instrumentation on Sleep Dirt is quite different than what appears in FZs original score for Hutchentoot. […]

Frank never wrote something called "Hutchentoot".

Thinman

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Hutchentoot :arrow: http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Hunchentoot.html

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:50 am 
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Trip wrote:


If anyone did a little research on Hunchentoot they would find out that the production involves 42 people. Where the stage production is more-so a stage drama than what was heard on any of the songs that appeared on Sleep Dirt. 6 main characters, a 22 piece orchestra and a 10 voice choral group. Let's not forget 6 forcelings, "three female and one male; dancer-mimes who occasionally engage in choral speech and pretend to play musical instruments.".... There are many special requirements, musical specifics, also required details and audio specifics. The composer had lots of details that at times put the rock side of things way on the backburner. The Orchestral Score of 200 Motels may very well be an orchestral score about life on the road of a rock group more-so than how much rocking out is going to happen. But fans can hope for as much of the rock side that they know and love to go along with the adaptation of the original orchestra score as they wish.

My point earlier is that some folks might possibly be misguided by what they saw in the 200 Motels Movie and 2LP. It may very well be that Frank Zappa's Original Orchestral Score for 200 Motels does not contain as much of the so called rock arrangement recordings that we see and hear on the film and 2LP.

I want to reiterate at this point the Soloist roles are still Officially To Be Determined. So much of the promotion on the adaptation of Frank Zappa's Original Orchestral Score talks about the orchestra doing more, how the orchestras in 2013 are now capable of handling FZs repertoire. Sure all the To Be Determined Soloists will be interesting. That too is very much a part of the original orchestral score, but my point has always been that we can expect to hear the orchestra doing more, and that the rock arrangements in the film and 2LP may not be a template of what to expect.

Frank may have had the rock band performing more than what was in his original orchestra score, who they were at the time of the film, that may very well have been in-the-moment adaptations to his original orchestral score. Just look at the details FZ wrote into the stage production for Hunchentoot. Compare that to the songs we know on Sleep Dirt. An alarm should be going off where history shows us that Original Orchestral Score may very well be quite different than what some may be expecting, but then again the premier is an adaptation... an adaptation with some very nice information that Gail has given us, but still I think the orchestra will do more this time around..The examples I gave of what's been happening this millennium, the performances speak of how the orchestras are handling the composers intent.

"The power of pop music to corrupt and putrefy the minds of world youth are virtually limitless".

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We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:28 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
If anyone did a little research on Hutchentoot they would find out...


Thinman wrote:
...Frank never wrote something called "Hutchentoot".

Thinman

"A little research" :)
Image

Any FZ fans hear any news about the new 200 Motels performance next month?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Image

Its OK Trendy, I'll count that one time that you fixed as a spelling error. As for the other times on this page that you got it wrong, never spelling it correctly before being told you were wrong, well, it seems that you have some research to do. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:25 am 
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To be clear, I am completely facetious when I claim that
Jeff Beck will join the stage with the LA Phil, with
Ringo Starr on drums - because Keith and Jimmy Carl couldn't make it - and starring
Jeff Simmons as the bass player!
Ian Underwood can't play keys because he's under contract, George Duke of course had a previously scehduled engagement and Brian Eno is on tour with Tommy Mars, so at the last minute Herbie Hancock said he'd "come and play Chick Corea's parts, is that what this is?". And No, Paul Schaffer, mgmt fears your beautiful gleaming dome would just be a distraction from the real star of the show, the giant Industrial Vacuum Cleaner...
8)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:24 am 
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simplex II wrote:
To be clear, I am completely facetious when I claim that
Jeff Beck will join the stage with the LA Phil, with
Ringo Starr on drums - because Keith and Jimmy Carl couldn't make it - and starring
Jeff Simmons as the bass player!
Ian Underwood can't play keys because he's under contract, George Duke of course had a previously scehduled engagement and Brian Eno is on tour with Tommy Mars, so at the last minute Herbie Hancock said he'd "come and play Chick Corea's parts, is that what this is?". And No, Paul Schaffer, mgmt fears your beautiful gleaming dome would just be a distraction from the real star of the show, the giant Industrial Vacuum Cleaner...
8)

Whaaaat? No Mark & Howie. That's it! I'm selling my ticket, and I will attend all three William Shatner shows in the SoCal area.

http://williamshatner.com/ws/william-sh ... mini-tour/

He has an interesting line-up. I hope he does Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:42 am 
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Not sure if anyone or more pointedly some gals with erotic dreams out there are wearing their green wool overcoats yet but the 5th section The Pleated Gazelle, The Girls Dream offers some interesting insight into FZs original score. In The True Story of 200 Motels Frank gives us a run through of The Girls Dream. He is seated at his piano and the reading is from his original manuscript. FZ reads where his score has Sopranos and Altos blowing bubbles with a straw into a paper cup, then later on placing the contents into a cheap aluminium pan which makes a dribbling noise. Details such as this are very much part of the score.

We could also see that Frank thought it would be a good idea for the conductor to play the role of the Narrator. While the dialogue that was sung is obviously far from the norm of what orchestras were traditionally doing, the music that Frank writes can also at times show it's sense of unconventionality. When Frank was working with The Ensemble Moderne he had some wind based instruments playing under water. These are but a few small examples of where some of the orchestras of today are better prepared to play FZs scores. Certainly not limited to the dialogue and unconventional usage of instrumentation but it's a point well documented in FZs score.

Frank's run though and the rehearsal footage are a nice addition to what many should be familiar with in the film. Something to keep a close eyes and ears look at the show.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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