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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:27 pm 
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I guess some people here don't have the comprehension for mathematics. Oh well...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:43 pm 
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Fun thought experiment youse have created. Weighing the accuracy of business measurement systems versus the reliability of the human eye. Probably impossible to have a solid win for either side, but fun anyway.

Some points of interest...

Pro-Business

The position of the eyeball is important. If one sits in the front and looks backward, it is nearly impossible to gauge the density at the very back.
Also, people switch seats, so if one cannot see the back and the front looks packed, it can give the impression of a full house.
At any given time, people are buying beverages or in the can, so maybe 10% or more is in flux at any given time, depending on the venue.
Some people don't show up.


Pro-Eyeball

Businesses want to be able to say "sold-out". I am fully confident in the business world's ability to carve the facts to maximum potency. For example, maybe Disco Boy can elucidate: Is "sold-out" a defined industry term which means something other than 100% ticket sales? Perhaps it means 98%, or that all ticket blocks of more than 1 are sold, or who knows what.
Also, some parts of the business want to be able to give away things. Anyone who has worked in the business knows that lots of people get in for free and are NEVER accounted for.
If one walks around alot, purposefully deciding to gauge the crowd level, more accuracy can be gained, but really how much time ya gonna spend? Yer at a show! :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:35 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I guess some people here don't have the comprehension for mathematics. Oh well...


You trust numbers from a magazine more than you trust eye witnesses?

Oh well, I had a feeling a guy like you would.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:47 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I guess some people here don't have the comprehension for mathematics. Oh well...


Well I did comprehend that the sign posted at the box office the day of the show said ZPZ Sold Out....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:05 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Fun thought experiment youse have created. Weighing the accuracy of business measurement systems versus the reliability of the human eye. Probably impossible to have a solid win for either side, but fun anyway.


It's not an experiment in terms of measuring ticket sales with ticket prices - it's how it works in the vast majority of cases, as I've clearly proven (not just in this thread). My assumption as to whether or not there were nearly 400 empty seats at the Philly show is incidental.


The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Businesses want to be able to say "sold-out". I am fully confident in the business world's ability to carve the facts to maximum potency. For example, maybe Disco Boy can elucidate: Is "sold-out" a defined industry term which means something other than 100% ticket sales? Perhaps it means 98%, or that all ticket blocks of more than 1 are sold, or who knows what.


That's an interesting point.

Capacities vary all the time in the same venue. In arenas, it depends on the configuration of the stage setup. Whether it's an 180 degree end stage, 270 degree end stage, 360 degree end stage, in the round, half house or theater bowl. In theaters, it depends on the percentage of seats in the orchestra pit being utilized, or a GA pit being setup, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:11 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I guess some people here don't have the comprehension for mathematics. Oh well...


You trust numbers from a magazine more than you trust eye witnesses?

Oh well, I had a feeling a guy like you would.


Uh, Lumpy...based on many factors, I've already proven to you that the Philly show attendance is correct. And what are you really saying? That the paid attendance wasn't 2,679 at the Philly show?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:14 am 
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Trennasol wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I guess some people here don't have the comprehension for mathematics. Oh well...


Well I did comprehend that the sign posted at the box office the day of the show said ZPZ Sold Out....


But you already stated that the Tower box office renounced that statement shortly afterwards...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:30 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
You trust numbers from a magazine more than you trust eye witnesses?
Oh well, I had a feeling a guy like you would.

Disco Boy wrote:
Uh, Lumpy...based on many factors, I've already proven to you that the Philly show attendance is correct. And what are you really saying? That the paid attendance wasn't 2,679 at the Philly show?


No, it was 2,931. Or, maybe 2,942. No, it was 2,875. Yeah.

No, sorry, it was 3,002. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:25 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Lumpy Gravy wrote:
You trust numbers from a magazine more than you trust eye witnesses?
Oh well, I had a feeling a guy like you would.

Disco Boy wrote:
Uh, Lumpy...based on many factors, I've already proven to you that the Philly show attendance is correct. And what are you really saying? That the paid attendance wasn't 2,679 at the Philly show?


No, it was 2,931. Or, maybe 2,942. No, it was 2,875. Yeah.

No, sorry, it was 3,002. :mrgreen:


"Facts are stupid things." :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Ok, here's some stats fresh from the latest edition of Pollstar magazine:

Toronto, ON
Hummingbird Centre
June 16, 2006
Capacity: 3,026
Sold Out
Gross: $158,680 ($180,047 Canadian)
Average Ticket Price: $59.50 Canadian

Las Vegas, NV
House Of Blues
June 20, 2006
Capacity: 1,221
Attendance: 805
Gross: $46,965
Average Ticket Price: $58.34

Phoenix, AZ
Dodge Theater
June 21, 2006
Capacity: 3,149
Attendance: 2,339
Gross: $90,539
Average Ticket Price: $38.70

Los Angeles, CA
The Wiltern Theater
June 23, 2006
Capacity: 2,305
Attendance: 2,035
Gross: $92,248
Average Ticket Price: $45.33

San Francisco, CA
Warfield Theater
June 24, 2006
Capacity: 2,344
Sold Out
Gross: $94,285
Average Ticket Price: $40.22


All we need now is the European/UK leg and Chicago gig stats...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:28 am 
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I don't understand why some Philly show attendees posting to this thread insist that there were no empty seats at The Tower. From my view, I could see numerous empty seats, including several seats in the row I was in. The seat to my right was empty the entire evening. My feeling is that if there had also been shows scheduled south of Philly, The Tower wouldn't have even been close to selling out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:48 pm 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
I don't understand why some Philly show attendees posting to this thread insist that there were no empty seats at The Tower. From my view, I could see numerous empty seats, including several seats in the row I was in. The seat to my right was empty the entire evening. My feeling is that if there had also been shows scheduled south of Philly, The Tower wouldn't have even been close to selling out.


All I said was that there were not 400 empty seats.

I never insisted there were no empty seats at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:16 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
I don't understand why some Philly show attendees posting to this thread insist that there were no empty seats at The Tower. From my view, I could see numerous empty seats, including several seats in the row I was in. The seat to my right was empty the entire evening. My feeling is that if there had also been shows scheduled south of Philly, The Tower wouldn't have even been close to selling out.


All I said was that there were not 400 empty seats.

I never insisted there were no empty seats at all.

Chill out, dude. No wonder you get into so many arguments.....my post wasn't even about you. Of course, we can always argue as to whether or not you're argumentative. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:12 am 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
Chill out, dude. No wonder you get into so many arguments.....my post wasn't even about you. Of course, we can always argue as to whether or not you're argumentative. :mrgreen:


OK.
But, if I haven't overlooked any post, it was just me and Trennasol who objected to Disco Boy stats, so I figured the odds were 50/50 you meant me...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:35 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
OK.
But, if I haven't overlooked any post, it was just me and Trennasol who objected to Disco Boy stats, so I figured the odds were 50/50 you meant me...

chumcloud wrote:
here's the missing ingredient re: Philly attendence..

Pollstar has it incorrect. It was reported by the promoter incorrect. There wasn't an empty seat in the place...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:54 pm 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
chumcloud wrote:
here's the missing ingredient re: Philly attendence..

Pollstar has it incorrect. It was reported by the promoter incorrect. There wasn't an empty seat in the place...

ah... ok. one person claimed the tower was packed. you could have directed your post to chumcloud to begin with then...

jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
I don't understand why some Philly show attendees posting to this thread insist that there were no empty seats...

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 Post subject: Why do you care, Chumpy?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:19 pm 
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Yes.....you are quite argumentative.....aren't you?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:01 pm 
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Just wondering why you said "some posters" when you apparently only meant one, that's all...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:26 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
All I said was that there were not 400 empty seats.


You're right. And I never said that there were 400 empty seats either. I said that there were nearly 400 empty seats (385 to be exact). :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:56 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:29 am 
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Ok, here's some fresh tour stats from the same source:


Manchester, UK
Carling Apollo
June 1, 2006
Capacity: 3,500
Attendance: 3,273
Gross: $140,888 USD
Average Ticket Price: $43.04 USD

London, UK
Royal Albert Hall
June 2, 2006
Capacity: 3,585
Attendance: 2,679
Gross: $243,307 USD
Average Ticket Price: $90.91 USD

Minneapolis, MN
Orpheum Theater
October 20, 2006
Capacity: 2,579
Attendance: 2,068
Gross: $89,663
Average Ticket Price: $43.34

Buffalo, NY
Center For The Performing Arts
October 23, 2006
Capacity: 1,666
Attendance: 1,608
Gross: $76,024
Average Ticket Price: $47.27

Providence, RI
Performing Arts Center
October 25, 2006
Capacity: 3,056
Attendance: 2,097
Gross: $93,973
Average Ticket Price: $44.81

Atlantic City, NJ
The Borgata
October 27, 2006
Capacity: 1,701
Sold Out
Gross: $82,225
Average Ticket Price: $48.33

Wallingford, CT
Chevrolet Theater
October 29, 2006
Capacity: 3,670
Attendance: 3,366
Gross: $122,378
Average Ticket Price: $36.35

New York City, NY
Theater @ Madison Square Garden
October 31, 2006
Capacity: 5,452
Attendance: 4,803
Gross: $285,758
Average Ticket Price: $59.88



The only surprise here is the Connecticut show. I thought there'd only be around 70% of what there actually was there at the prices that were charged. I figure the additional 1,000 in attendance were fans from Upstate New York that made the trek to Wallingford, instead of Providence...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:17 am 
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is this thread about sold out shows or ticketbasterd screwing the fan? but in all this chat,no mention of frontgate. yes ther was atime(76&77) that i slept out at the spectrum a week for FRANK tickets. roll call at 3 a.m.,to make sure no one left. would thumb home around 6 a.m for high school,get done around 3 and thumb back to the spectrum for another night of hanging out with 600 people i didn't know till the end of the week.but the day tickets went on sale we would line up at the gate in order of the book.Now bought my tickets through frontgate,atlantic city & orlando show,a week before ticketbasterd got them. got 7th row and next orlando 4th row center,yes i paid extra but i didn't have to sleep out in the cold for a week.besides i don't think these old bones could make it,but for this show you can bet your ass i'd try. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:45 am 
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Conceptual Continuity wrote:
is this thread about sold out shows or ticketbasterd screwing the fan? but in all this chat,no mention of frontgate. yes ther was atime(76&77) that i slept out at the spectrum a week for FRANK tickets. roll call at 3 a.m.,to make sure no one left. would thumb home around 6 a.m for high school,get done around 3 and thumb back to the spectrum for another night of hanging out with 600 people i didn't know till the end of the week.but the day tickets went on sale we would line up at the gate in order of the book.Now bought my tickets through frontgate,atlantic city & orlando show,a week before ticketbasterd got them. got 7th row and next orlando 4th row center,yes i paid extra but i didn't have to sleep out in the cold for a week.besides i don't think these old bones could make it,but for this show you can bet your ass i'd try. :)


WHY? Before the obscene level of corruption took hold ('86 or so?), the enterprising fan could easily determine date of sale through Ticketron (I think that's what it was called back then) and secure seats in the first 5 rows. I never had a problem landing primo seats at NY's Palladium or anywhere else in the Metro area.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:52 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I don't believe the Philly show figure is incorrect. For two reasons:

1. In a 3,000+ capacity theater, I do not think the naked eye can see less than 400 empty seats, unless those empty seats are bunched together. They were most likely scattered throughout the entire venue.

2. To my knowledge, FZ sold out three shows at the same venue in 1988. That's around 9,200 tickets at an average ticket price of around $16-$17. Now, since 10% of the audience, at the most, will come back to multiple shows in the same market on the same tour if there are no return engagements, that means that around 8,600 people saw FZ live at the Tower in '88. So, 8,600 tickets divided by 3.2 = basically 2,700 tickets. Or $16.50 multiplied by 3.2 = basically $53 (the basic average ticket price of the Philly show last month).


Your logic is as dated as you are stupid.

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