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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:36 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
HJ wrote:
Next equally serious question: Did Gail compose all Franks music? And was Frank actually just a puppet, because nobody would take a woman's compositional skills seriously? Can we be sure that it was not Gail that programmed the synclavier? Can we? She had access to it. She lived in the house. I mean all the evidence points towards her. SHE is a bona fide American Composer. SHE should have a bust in Bad Doberan!!!! We cannot be sure that Scully and Mulder are not already on the case. Can you prove they are not?


This is the typical Ad Hominen line of argumentation... So my question is not serious because you don't judge it as such. I would ask you with which authority you claim that, but I already asked you to not come back, so please never mind. And it is not like each member's opinion don't matter: I enjoy hearing opposing views (although I don't take party on the alternative view here, I am only playing the alternate view's advocate), as long as they won't involve simply insulting me for what I believe or what want to know. I don't feel like taking this poor kind of straw men attack just because you think you are so omniscient... It is my question, and the most dumb you may think it is... I don't give a shit, I am not ashamed to ask it here, where I feel it is appropriate.

If you are not up for people's reaction to your questions, then don't pose them. I can judge your question serious or not as I like it. Nothing "Ad Hominen" about that. It is merely my judgement. Your "I enjoy hearing opposing views" appears somewhat peculiar since you get exceptionally excited over posters that quickly discard your question as not really worth the while of a serious discussion.

I am not putting up straw men. I don't need that to express my opinion regarding your question: Pure speculation for its own sake. I am just offering another hypothesis that I think is just as interesting. This, in my book, constitutes providing analogies to facilitate understanding. And my authority on this equals that of yours I guess. (And by the way, you cannot "ask" me not to come back - are you the Forum Police?, or is it your old idea about you-creating-the-thread-then-it-is-yours?)

So just keep "don't giving a shit". You do have nothing to be ashamed of. Just accept that those opposing views exist.

PS: You don't know me. So your statement "just because you think you are so omniscient" does not make any sense. You have NO clue at all. And on this I know, and you don't. Fact!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:57 am 
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rumour man wrote:
feetlightup, who the F knows who he pissed off mate. Maybe him being a blip on the radar made him an even easier target for some power crazed twat, you never heard of teh bowler hats and spiked umbrellas? (not literally of course)


Point taken. I agree it's possible that some "power crazed twat" could have had him bumped off - I was just saying it seems highly unlikely and fanciful that there was a large-scale plot against him at the highest level. His brand of satire and his shots at the government and organized religion were hardly a significant source of danger for these people. I guess that pegs me as one who believes that the real power is a Giant Corporate Nightmare Machine (or however I phrased it before) for whom people like Zappa are merely small potatoes, not worthy of elaborate plots. But mine's just another way of thinking - I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right.

MGG brought up an interesting view about Chapman - that he himself could have been a pawn in some larger plot. I guess that's possible - though Lennon's extreme popularity and his high visibility in a number of high profile protests might have qualified him as a legitimate danger, something I don't really see in Zappa's case.

Again, this isn't to downplay Zappa's importance in raising social conscience on important issues of governmental corruption - but just keep it in perspective and realize his influence on the public at large has been nowhere near as huge as someone like Lennon. Of course, those whom Zappa has touched have been touched deeply... but his effect on the average American has not been as significant.

rumour man wrote:
I guess I just feel gutted that he's dead and I want answers. He's my one and only true hero in the World.


I understand your pain. The need for "answers" is a strong one. I just caution against drawing conclusions that I feel can often be romantic speculations serving to give our hero's death more poignancy - the martyrdom syndrome. But sometimes people just die, and there's no cinematic reason or purpose behind it.

Not saying anyone here is doing this. Not even MGG, who started this thread and has gotten some flack over it. I understand his original topic was merely a way to ignite discussion, and it's a valid topic no matter what your view is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:32 am 
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feetlightup wrote:
rumour man wrote:
feetlightup, who the F knows who he pissed off mate. Maybe him being a blip on the radar made him an even easier target for some power crazed twat, you never heard of teh bowler hats and spiked umbrellas? (not literally of course)


Point taken. I agree it's possible that some "power crazed twat" could have had him bumped off - I was just saying it seems highly unlikely and fanciful that there was a large-scale plot against him at the highest level. His brand of satire and his shots at the government and organized religion were hardly a significant source of danger for these people. I guess that pegs me as one who believes that the real power is a Giant Corporate Nightmare Machine (or however I phrased it before) for whom people like Zappa are merely small potatoes, not worthy of elaborate plots. But mine's just another way of thinking - I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right.

MGG brought up an interesting view about Chapman - that he himself could have been a pawn in some larger plot. I guess that's possible - though Lennon's extreme popularity and his high visibility in a number of high profile protests might have qualified him as a legitimate danger, something I don't really see in Zappa's case.

Again, this isn't to downplay Zappa's importance in raising social conscience on important issues of governmental corruption - but just keep it in perspective and realize his influence on the public at large has been nowhere near as huge as someone like Lennon. Of course, those whom Zappa has touched have been touched deeply... but his effect on the average American has not been as significant.

rumour man wrote:
I guess I just feel gutted that he's dead and I want answers. He's my one and only true hero in the World.


I understand your pain. The need for "answers" is a strong one. I just caution against drawing conclusions that I feel can often be romantic speculations serving to give our hero's death more poignancy - the martyrdom syndrome. But sometimes people just die, and there's no cinematic reason or purpose behind it.

Not saying anyone here is doing this. Not even MGG, who started this thread and has gotten some flack over it. I understand his original topic was merely a way to ignite discussion, and it's a valid topic no matter what your view is.
This isn't something that never crossed my mind and MrGG has always had a hot temper, even to the point of seriously calling someone a "racist" when his nationality was lightly and jokingly brought up.
Continuing the murder conspiracy: Maybe a word to FZ's doctors not to pursue certain medical suspicions by a governmental goon making it clear to them that something very bad could happen to them if they followed through on it? There's no poison there. That's just too little too late.
Unlike Lennon and "whoever" Frank had a very strong interest in the political structures in Eastern Europe culminating in his meetings with Czech President Vaclav Havel. That might have been of very serious concern to the US Gov't. in a way that Lennon's entertaining protests never really were -- except for J. Edgar Hoover & Co.
Zappa was getting on the inside, most notably with Czech Prez Havel. That went a whole lot further than Lennon's "Give Peace A Chance" singing and in-bed "bed-in" interviews. Lennon was fluff, Zappa was involved right in the faces of the new Czech leaders and held their attention. Well, Bush The First made sure his secretary of state James Baker put the kibosh on that.
Maybe preventive measures were in order as Bush I saw it and, as a former Chief of the CIA had Zappa's comings and goings watched very closely and found a rare opportunity to keep him from having a long life and any Eastern European interest in him and his political ideas.

Wild speculation! But why not? (It must be a flare up of my Asperger's Syndrome again. Damn!)

--Bat

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:54 am 
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Maybe his doctors were bribed not to tell him about his disease... hmmm...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 am 
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BBP wrote:
Maybe his doctors were bribed not to tell him about his disease... hmmm...


After all, it was only an Imaginary Disease :P

Sorry, couldn't resist that one :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 am 
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Batchain1001 wrote:
Unlike Lennon and "whoever" Frank had a very strong interest in the political structures in Eastern Europe culminating in his meetings with Czech President Vaclav Havel. That might have been of very serious concern to the US Gov't. in a way that Lennon's entertaining protests never really were -- except for J. Edgar Hoover & Co.
Zappa was getting on the inside, most notably with Czech Prez Havel. That went a whole lot further than Lennon's "Give Peace A Chance" singing and in-bed "bed-in" interviews. Lennon was fluff, Zappa was involved right in the faces of the new Czech leaders and held their attention. Well, Bush The First made sure his secretary of state James Baker put the kibosh on that.


Good point, Bat. I forgot to consider his dealings with Havel.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:52 am 
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Perhaps this topic should be retitled "Why was Frank Zappa murdered?" 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:01 am 
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feetlightup wrote:
Good point, Bat. I forgot to consider his dealings with Havel.

During which Frank already had cancer......

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:13 am 
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Yeah, that almost makes sense, Bat. He was getting into politics in a bigger way at the end. I don't know how serious he was running for president, but he was out there trying to develop a public persona.

I say it's all Tipper Gore! She done it!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:54 am 
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Didn't Alice Cooper run for govenor of Arizona once? And lets not forget all the actors, Schwartzenegger, Clint Eastwood....even Regan himself all went into politics!!!
Zappa could have gone far, and the notion of presidency isn't completely batty!! It would have been a shame if he was not serious about running had he not prematurely left us.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:07 am 
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sabrinaIII wrote:
Yeah, that almost makes sense, Bat. He was getting into politics in a bigger way at the end. I don't know how serious he was running for president, but he was out there trying to develop a public persona.

I say it's all Tipper Gore! She done it!


I'll bet Detective Sgt Willis was in on it too. Hey, IKE Willis, for that matter!

(What'choo talkin bout, Willis?)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:35 am 
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Mr. GG: How can you criticize people for their comments on your question and be affronted about the irony in the answers when you didn't tell first what you know about this subject ? I can't find anything in your posts about what you know. If you want serious answers you should give reasons for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:56 am 
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HJ wrote:
If you are not up for people's reaction to your questions, then don't pose them.


Of course I expect reactions about my questions. Except for a few particular kinds, I even welcome them. But bullying your way out of the question is not what a consider a golden reaction... Yours (and some other people's) is way too predictable, that is all...

HJ wrote:
I can judge your question serious or not as I like it.


You could, if you are thick and unwilling to belive what I wrote, once I did say I was asking it seriously (and I wasn't joking either), since I already expected all kind of flame and shit storm...

HJ wrote:
Nothing "Ad Hominen" about that.


That is the very definition of it...

HJ wrote:
It is merely my judgement. Your "I enjoy hearing opposing views" appears somewhat peculiar since you get exceptionally excited over posters that quickly discard your question as not really worth the while of a serious discussion.


If you look above on this thread, you will see that this doesn't hold truth. Many others have respectfully, rationally, humorously and/or otherwise had their say and you are not seeing me bitching about it. Of course I do retain my right to simply completely avoid something as idiotic as "fucking idiots" or, "I [on my infinite superiority] won't even comment"... I will answer whenever I've been asked, or if I feel I need to get something straight, like when you speak with such an authority about how serious I am...

HJ wrote:
I am not putting up straw men.


Saying this question is on par with "Gail composed Franks oeuvre " is definitively a straw man...

HJ wrote:
I don't need that to express my opinion regarding your question: Pure speculation for its own sake.


If I were just a little more rude, I could tell you that since you don't need to express your opinion about it, then SHUT UP! But I am a nice guy, I am not like those rude Spanish kings who need to win the argument based on how loud they scream... ;)

And where else should I express this simple question other than the Zappa Legend, Myths and Fantasy board? What kind of crime is that?

I don't have to be explaining you why I am posting here, like reporting to a little central scrut, but I am...

HJ wrote:
I am just offering another hypothesis that I think is just as interesting. This, in my book, constitutes providing analogies to facilitate understanding.


That is why you are diminishing my position (with such superiority), which has some actual line of though (Zappa=outspoken prominent member of society is eliminated by the powers that be by an agent giving him some highly carcinogenic substance) for the faintest or most improbable it might appeal to you, it is nowhere as near as implausible as your hypothesis that Gail was the composer behind her husband. FACT.

HJ wrote:
And my authority on this equals that of yours I guess. (And by the way, you cannot "ask" me not to come back - are you the Forum Police?, or is it your old idea about you-creating-the-thread-then-it-is-yours?)


Good, there we agree, so do also expect reaction if you try to ridicularize. I only keep asking people with an attitude similar to yours to keep away, for the good sake of their health. Pls, don't come in if you get so irritated with such a question, it won't be good for you heart... I am not the forum police, but I take care of my things when it comes to someone trying to speak themselves what they think I think, or how ridicule they think my ideas are, just like the bullying social patterns of thinking in the great society.

HJ wrote:
So just keep "don't giving a shit". You do have nothing to be ashamed of. Just accept that those opposing views exist.


OK, I will. I am not ashamed of questioning the most solid common sense knowledge, ever, as long as it is worth to know. I do accept other people's opinion, as you can see by the diversity of answers we got so far, and how many I had to "deal with" in order to set things straight ... Look around you are not the only one thinking this is not likely, although some have put it a in a more honorable fashion, and others even believe it is possible/plausible.

HJ wrote:
PS: You don't know me. So your statement "just because you think you are so omniscient" does not make any sense. You have NO clue at all. And on this I know, and you don't. Fact!


You are what you is...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:13 pm 
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The question "Was Zappa Murdered?" strikes me in a weird way as I remember listening to his final 818 PUMPKIN messages and where he was fully conscious of his own deteriorating health.

I think posing provocative questions like this is a double edged sword. On one side, it can inspire some interesting dialog, but the flip side is that it creates a false sense of hysteria where it never exsisted before.

Either way, I firmly believe his death was a result of natural health issues and not a premeditated conspiracy beyond any reasonable doubt.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:39 pm 
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SuzyBrieCheese wrote:
Didn't Alice Cooper run for govenor of Arizona once? And lets not forget all the actors, Schwartzenegger, Clint Eastwood....even Regan himself all went into politics!!!
Zappa could have gone far, and the notion of presidency isn't completely batty!! It would have been a shame if he was not serious about running had he not prematurely left us.


Regan, Schwartzenegger and others are definitively players for the powers that be. Zappa was always hated. Haven't you seen the CNN Crossfire? Pseudo-Conservatives were driven wild by him, like mad drooling dogs with anger in their eyes!

My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Mr. GG: How can you criticize people for their comments on your question and be affronted about the irony in the answers when you didn't tell first what you know about this subject ? I can't find anything in your posts about what you know. If you want serious answers you should give reasons for it.


Notice, my dear friend, I am criticizing people who claim I can't do that kind of question, cause it is too idiotic [EDIT: oh, OK, so this means you too :shock: :mrgreen: ehehe]! Irony in the answer is quite alright, although irony with me, in order to run away from the discussion itself and making me look like an ass, when I mean such [absurd you might say] question, it is not (not when it is done with such feel of certainty)... I don't KNOW anything special about Frank other than he died of cancer and was repeatedly misdiagnosed. I also know he was someone who the Establishment pretty much hated but had to swallow anyway, because even if they wouldn't promote him, or allow DJs to play his stuff regularly by the few media oligopolies during Frank's career, he managed to build a solid business and was pretty much politically active. It could have deeply bothered some mean people out there... My position is pretty much written above (or pages before). I don't think it necessarily happened, but I wouldn't doubt it if someone brings forth good evidence.

Anyway, I just wished to see if anyone else have had that thought before... Hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings, I apologize if I did. Even though a historic fact, those subjects might raise some little extra hairs in some people's body and affect some (family more likely, and some more sensitive fans) emotionally, and maybe it was a bad idea. But thanks all who had a constructive input, some thoughts were brought up...

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
You are what you is...

Thanks! 8)

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
A radioactive source was only an example. A possible culprit. There are N carcinogenic frightening little substances known to science:

various carcinogens


That's a fair point. The prostate would be indeed be susceptible to many carcingoenic substances. I'm nevertheless firmly convinced that natural causes were to blame; I just can't fathom a) the reason (as has been said, in the grand scheme of things, FZ's opinions were (sadly) rather marginalized and unheard) and b) the logistics.

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Why the fuck do people believe in conspiracy theories?


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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Why the fuck do people believe in conspiracy theories?


Same reason why people believe in God: attempting to explain the un- (or badly)explained mind-boggling matters with a hypothesis that is loony and probably untrue, and then they stick by it!

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Were the same people who killed Frank the same people that staged the moon landing?

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
. Haven't you seen the CNN Crossfire? Pseudo-Conservatives were driven wild by him, like mad drooling dogs with anger in their eyes!..

oh yes! on repeat too :P I guess I forget to look at these things in hindsight.
I think the political climate since the noughties ( 00's) has made anything possible though and just thought that the current enviornment would have let him go far. Afterall, just look at the motley crew that went for the governor of Cali....Gary coleman, the terminator, a pornstar, Larry Flynnt (whom many people did hate)....its laughable.

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Batchain1001 wrote:
Unlike Lennon and "whoever" Frank had a very strong interest in the political structures in Eastern Europe culminating in his meetings with Czech President Vaclav Havel. That might have been of very serious concern to the US Gov't. in a way that Lennon's entertaining protests never really were -- except for J. Edgar Hoover & Co.
Zappa was getting on the inside, most notably with Czech Prez Havel. That went a whole lot further than Lennon's "Give Peace A Chance" singing and in-bed "bed-in" interviews. Lennon was fluff, Zappa was involved right in the faces of the new Czech leaders and held their attention. Well, Bush The First made sure his secretary of state James Baker put the kibosh on that.

HJ wrote:
During which Frank already had cancer......


. . . . .exactly.

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:

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"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true" - Niels Bohr.



your theory is crazy. crazy enough not to be true - lumpy gravy

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 pm 
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Let's see...

Heavy smoker.
Poor nutrition.
Lack of exercise.
Medical incompetence.

Put those together and you have...a government plot.

Conspiracy theorists say the damndest things.

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